Jesus Mythicism 7: Josephus, Jesus and the ‘Testimonium Flavianum’

Jesus Mythicism 7: Josephus, Jesus and the ‘Testimonium Flavianum’

Mythicists like to claim that the issue of the authenticity of Josephus’ account of Jesus – the so-called “Testimonium Flavianum” – is settled. They insist that the passage is a wholesale forgery, inserted by Christians. But while a scholarly case can be made for this position, one can also be made for the partial authenticity of the passage. Unless new evidence appears, the question remains moot.

Yeshua

Of all the source material pertinent to the question of the historicity of Jesus, none is more controversial or widely discussed than the “Testimonium Flavianum” (TF): the 88 word account of Jesus found in Book XVIII of Flavius Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews. In the textus receptus, it reads:

(63) Γίνεται δὲ κατὰ τοῦτον τὸν χρόνον Ἰησοῦς σοφὸς ἀνήρ, εἴγε ἄνδρα αὐτὸν λέγειν χρή. ἦν γὰρ παραδόξων ἔργων ποιητής, διδάσκαλος ἀνθρώπων τῶν ἡδονῇ τἀληθῆ δεχομένων, καὶ πολλοὺς μὲν Ἰουδαίους, πολλοὺς δὲ καὶ τοῦ Ἑλληνικοῦ ἐπηγάγετο. ὁχριστὸς οὖτος ἦν.
(64) καὶ αὐτὸν ἐνδείξει τῶν πρώτων ἀνδρῶν παρ’ ἡμῖν σταυρῷ ἐπιτετιμηκότος Πιλάτου οὐκ ἐπαύσαντο οἱ τὸ πρῶτον ἀγαπήσαντες. ἐφάνη γὰρ αὐτοῖς τρίτην ἔχων ἡμέραν πάλιν ζῶν τῶν θείων προφητῶν ταῦτά τε καὶ ἄλλα μυρία περὶ αὐτοῦ θαυμάσια εἰρηκότων. εἰς ἔτι τε νῦν τῶν Χριστιανῶν ἀπὸ τοῦδε ὠνομασμένον οὐκ ἐπέλιπε τὸ φῦλον.

([63] And there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is necessary to call him a man, for he was a doer of paradoxical works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure, and many Jews on the one hand and also many of the Greeks on the other he drew to himself. He was the Messiah.

[64] And when, on the accusation of some of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first loved him did not cease to do so. For he appeared to them on the third day, living again, the divine prophets having related both these things and countless other marvels about him. And even till now the tribe of Christians, so named from this man, has not gone extinct.)

(AJ XVIII.63-4)

There are several elements in this passage which do not ring true as something a devout Jew and non-Christian like Josephus (Yosef ben Matityahu) would say. After all, it does not make much sense for a Jew like Josephus to declare that Jesus “was the Messiah” or attest “he appeared to them on the third day, living again”. As early as 1592 the Protestant scholar Lucas Osiander (1534–1604) doubted the authenticity of this passage on exactly these grounds, noting:

If Josephus had felt what he asserted in that testimony, he would have been a Christian; however, nothing with even a whiff of Christianity can be found in his writings.

(Epitomes historiae ecclesiasticae centuriae decimae sextae, 1, Book 2, Ch. 7.17)

Later scholars took up this argument and noted other perceived problems with the passage. Louis Cappel (1568–1658) pointed out that the passage does not seem to fit well into its surrounding narrative and Tanaquilius Faber (1615–1672) noted that the passage contradicts Origen’s repeated assertion that Josephus “did not believe in Jesus as the Christ” (Contra Celsus I.47, Commentarius in Matthaeum X.17). As the centuries passed, the number of defenders of the authenticity of the passage dwindled, and by the end of the nineteenth century Benedikt Niese (1849-1910) placed it in brackets in his 1890 critical edition of Josephus, indicating it a probable interpolation. By then its wholesale inauthenticity was widely accepted.

This situation changed in the later twentieth century, when both Christian and Jewish scholars began to significantly reappraise the origins of Christianity in the context of Second Temple Judaism and its aftermath. The idea that Josephus would have been necessarily hostile to Jesus and his message was greatly weakened by this review of Jesus in his Jewish context; which contributed to arguments that the passage was partially authentic, though with some clear later Christian additions, gaining the upper hand as the consensus view by the end of that century.

This majority view remains to this day and is held by scholars with widely varying backgrounds and perspectives; by conservative Christians, liberal Christians and Jewish scholars, as well as by secular non-believers. This position has been espoused by, among many others, scholars as diverse as John P. Meier, Steven Mason, Paula Fredrikson, E.P. Sanders, Geza Vermes, John D. Crossan, Paul Winter, S.G.F. Brandon, Morton Smith, James H. Charlesworth, Carlo M. Martini, Wolfgang Trilling, A.M. Dubarle, Robert Van Voorst, R.T. France, F.F. Bruce, Craig L. Blomberg, Ben Witherington III, James D.G. Dunn, Darrell L. Bock, Alice Whealey, Luke Y. Johnson, J. Carleton Paget and Graham Stanton. This range of scholars shows this position cannot be dismissed as one held out of ideological bias or apologetic impulse, but is one based on evidence and reasoning.

There is, of course, a minority view that still maintains the passage is a wholesale interpolation. Most prominently, Ken Olson (“Eusebius and the Testimonium Flavianum”, The Catholic Biblical Quarterly. 61 (2): 305, 1999 and also “A Eusebian Reading of the Testimonium Flavianum”, 2013), and Paul Hopper (“A Narrative Anomaly in Josephus: Jewish Antiquities xviii:63,” in Monika Fludernik and Daniel Jacob, eds., Linguistics and Literary Studies: Interfaces, Encounters, Transfers, 2014, de Gruyter, pp. 147-169) both make arguments that the passage is a wholesale later insertion and not a Josephan text with later Christian additions. These are solid pieces of scholarship, made by reputable and qualified scholars who do not seem to have any obvious ideological agenda. They remain, however, in the minority.

But the idea that the TF is a “forgery” is almost an article of faith for online Jesus Mythicism enthusiasts; to the extent that it is stated as though this is a hard fact and not a minority interpretation. Some random samples from Reddit are illustrative here:

“Tacitus and Pliny the Younger are two hearsay sources, and there exists a confirmed forgery by Josephus called “Antiquities of the Jews” written in 93-94 AD.” (“Wagenator” on /r/exchristian in a post entitled “Reasons I am no longer a Christian)

“We’ve known it was fake for a long time. The religious will never admit it because they need all the help they can get and they don’t really care about reality.” (“BitchspotBlog” on /r/atheism)

“The Josephus “reference” to jesus is also a well known fraud. The ink is marked out, the writing is different, the tone and quality and voice of the writing is also different. Furthermore, it includes the word “christian” which wasn’t coined at all until decades later.” (“Sandi_T” on /r/exchristian)

“There is little to no historical evidence for the resurrection, or Jesus himself, with the earliest records being written 40-70 years after the fact, and no first-century records of him other than Josephus, which is a known forgery.” (“Buck_McBride” on /r/changemyview)

Clearly these people definitely do have an obvious ideological agenda and some of them are also working from garbled memories or even outright fantasies, as the nonsense about how “the ink is marked out” in the comment by “Sandi_T” shows. They are simply parroting what has become an unchallenged factoid in online anti-theist circles: any reference to Josephus can be summarily dismissed as “a known forgery” because the TF has been “proven” to be “fake”. Amusingly, this kind of online enthusiast usually responds to any mention of Josephus at all with this kneejerk retort, even if the Josephan passage referred to is not the TF but his other Jesus reference in AJ XX.200 – the one that is almost universally accepted as authentic (see Jesus Mythicism 2: “James the Brother of the Lord” ).

But it is not just confused online zealots who insist that the TF is a “proven fake” and “known forgery”. This is also a key argument by the fringe Mythicist polemicists, who have to insist that both Josephan references to Jesus are later interpolations to avoid the problem of two mentions of him by precisely the ancient author who we would expect to refer to him if he had existed. So the atheist activist who calls himself “Aron Ra” bungles things badly (in typical style) by declaring that Josephus’ “only mention of Jesus is now known to have been a forgery or redaction inserted later by someone else.” This influential atheist is, apparently, unaware that Josephus mentions Jesus twice and also thinks doubt about the TF is something only entertained “now” and not something that has dominated scholarship on the passage for about 428 years.

Similarly, the self-published amateur Mythicist writer David Fitzgerald insists that “there are several strong indications that the entire passage is an interpolation” and blithely dismisses the majority view that it is partially authentic as being held by “wishful apologists” (Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All, Lulu.com, 2010, p.52). I am sure that Jewish and non-Christian scholars like Vermes, Fredriksen, Ehrman and others would be amused to learn they are “apologists”.

Unsurprisingly, the indefatigable Jesus Mythicism advocate, Dr. Richard Carrier PhD., is characteristically strident in his claims for the wholesale inauthenticity of the TF. In a piece on his blog entitled “The Josephus Testimonium: Let’s Just Admit It’s Fake Already” (2015) Carrier cites the articles noted above – Olson and Hopper – as well as (of course) himself and dismisses the whole idea that any part of the TF could have been written by him, declaring with typical chutzpah and ringing finality:

[I]t definitely wasn’t.

Especially with all the other evidence stacked on: its uncharacteristic narrative style (including its bizarre brevity and naive simplicity); the narrative illogic of its position in the text; its not being known to Origen or anyone else before Eusebius a century later; its containing patently ridiculous and fawning remarks only a Christian would make.

So just get over it already.

It’s fake.

Two years later he rang the death knell on partial authenticity again in another piece, “Josephus on Jesus? Why You Can’t Cite Opinions Before 2014” (2017), again citing Olson, Hopper and (of course) himself. Anyone who trusted Carrier on the matter would have to conclude that the case is closed: the TF is a wholesale forgery. Except, unsurprisingly, actual scholars do not pay any attention to Richard Carrier’s opinions on anything much. And the case is well and truly still open.

Testimonium
The ‘Testimonium’ in Codex Vossianus gr. F 26

“Jesus, a Wise Man”

The reason so many scholars accept the partial authenticity position is there are a number of elements in and attributes to the TF that arguably indicate a passage original to Josephus that has been adjusted and added to by later Christian scribes rather than a wholesale interpolation. To begin with, the phrase “if indeed it is necessary to call him a man” reads like an addition modifying or correcting the opening reference to him as “Jesus, a wise man”. Calling Jesus “a wise man” would be odd for a Christian interpolator, since they would clearly have regarded him as far more than this and no New Testament or Ante-Nicean descriptions of Jesus refer to him this way. On the other hand, as many commentators have noted, it is a phrase found elsewhere in Josephus: he uses it to refer to Solomon (AJ VIII.53) and Daniel (AJ X.237). So the phrase “if indeed it is necessary to call him a man” makes sense as a Christian scribe’s way of dealing with an original Josephan description of Jesus (“a wise man” ) that does not quite fit Christian conceptions of him. As J.P. Meier notes:

A Christian scribe would not deny that Jesus was a wise man, but would feel that label insufficient for one who was believed to be God as well as man.

(Meier, “Jesus in Josephus: A Modest Proposal”, Catholic Biblical Quarterly, Jan 1990, Vol. 52, Issue 1, pp. 76-103, p. 85)

So while a Christian would not disagree that Jesus was a “wise man”, they would be motivated to add something to bolster their belief he was much more than this.

It is also noted that the passage is strangely brief and restrained for something inserted for Christian apologetic purposes. If a Christian scribe was making a wholesale interpolation, it is odd that they did not make more of the opportunity and insert a whole gospel synopsis and take full advantage of putting a much longer and more detailed apologetic statement in the mouth of Josephus. But what we have in the textus receptus of the TF is extremely short and – apart from a slightly ambiguous reference to his miracles, a brief note on prophecy about him and a mention of the Resurrection – light on apologetic details. This is in contrast to other places where we know Christians did embellish or comment on Josephus for apologetic purposes: As J.C. Paget notes:

Where we can be certain of the existence of Christian additions to Josephus as well as glosses, they strike a more aggressively Christian note. In this respect I would draw attention to the pseudo-Josephan passage about James, the Slavonic Josephan passage about Jesus and some Christian glosses of Josephan manuscripts.

(J.C. Paget, “Some Observations on Josephus and Christianity”. The Journal of Theological Studies. 52 (2): 539–624, p. 600)

The “Slavonic Josephus” referred to here is a medieval translation of Josephus’ Jewish War which contains a number of clearly Christian interpolations. This includes a passage about Jesus inserted into War II.174 which is loosely based on the TF, but is much longer, far more detailed and, as Paget says, “aggressively Christian”. It claims Jesus was someone whose “nature and form were human but whose appearance was more than human and whose deeds were divine” and “everything, whatever he did, he did by some unseen power, by word and command”. All the elements of the TF are to be found in the Slavonic interpolations, but in greatly expanded form, with plenty of details derived from the gospels.

This gives us an indication of what a wholesale interpolation would look like. By contrast, the TF appears more like a brief Josephan account that a Christian has simply adjusted and made some small additions to.

Paget also notes that it would be odd for a wholesale interpolator to leave Josephus’ account of John the Baptist (AJ XVIII.109-119) as it is and to not place his interpolation about Jesus after the reference to the Baptist, rather than before it. This is the order we find in the gospels and when Eusebius gives his summary of the origins of Christianity in his Ecclesiastical History, he cites Josephus as a historical source on John the Baptist (HE, I.11.1-6) and then cites the TF on Jesus (HE, I.11.1-7-8), restoring the gospel sequence of events. It is odd that a wholesale interpolator would not do the same, but instead we find the TF earlier in Book XVIII of Antiquities, indicating that this uncanonical positioning of the two stories is due to Josephus’ placement of them.

It is similarly odd that the TF contains other elements that are not in accordance with what we find in the gospels or with early Christian ideas. The passage is strangely neutral about the Jewish leaders (“the principal men among us”) who accuse Jesus, given that much later Christian material is strongly anti-Jewish and follows the gospels in casting the Jewish leaders as the villains of the story. Again, the Slavonic Josephus sticks to the gospel depiction, inserting a lurid paragraph on the Jewish leaders’ scheming and perfidy. Josephus, on the other hand, is less likely to be as condemnatory of the actions of these “principal men” and likely to give a more matter-of-fact account.

Likewise, the TF states that Jesus won over “many Jews on the one hand and also many of the Greeks”. Yet the gospels and the subsequent Christian tradition consistently maintain that Jesus’ mission was wholly to the Jewish people and evangelism to Gentiles came only after his death. So this depiction of Jesus winning over Greek converts in his lifetime is contrary to the canonical narrative and is unparalleled in any early Christian literature. This odd element makes more sense if it was original to Josephus, with him projecting the state of affairs with the Jesus Sect in his time back onto the lifetime and career of Jesus.

Then there are the phrases in the passage which are not distinctively or obviously Christian, but can be found elsewhere in Josephus’ corpus. The use of the term σοφὸς ἀνήρ (a wise man) falls into this category, as has been noted above. Another example is the term παραδόξων ἔργων (paradoxical works) to refer to Jesus’ reported miracles. This is a phrase Josephus uses elsewhere. He uses it to describe the deeds of the prophet Elisha (AJ IX.183) and he uses forms of the adjective παράδοξος (paradoxical, unexpected, strange) often, including to express a degree of scepticism.

The construction of ἡδονῇ τἀληθῆ δεχομένων ([those who] receive the truth with pleasure) is paralleled in several places in the later books of Antiquities – e.g. XVII.329, XVIII.6, 59, 70, 236, 333 and XIX.127 – and so also seems to be Josephan in style. Likewise the structure of πολλοὺς μὲν … πολλοὺς δὲ (many … and also many) can also be seen in War I.146, 322,383, II.49, 177, 341, IV.643, V.562 and AJ VII.194 and XX.98. The term πρώτων ἀνδρῶν (principal men) is also common in Josephus: see AJ XVII.81, XVIII.7, and 98.

Other elements in the TF are more unusual but not without parallels in Josephus. φῦλον is a word that usually refers to a “nation” or “tribe”, but strictly speaking it means “a distinct set of people or other beings”. Early Christian writers do not use it to refer to their sect, but Josephus does use it elsewhere to refer to a distinct group, such as AJ II.306 (to refer to a swarm of locusts) or XIII.430 (to refer to the female gender).

There are no direct textual variants that indicate partial authenticity for the TF, as all surviving manuscripts include the passage as we find it (with a few very small variants). But there is some indirect textual evidence that is relevant here. This is because there are several texts that quote, translate or paraphrase the TF in ways that vary from the Greek textus receptus and which can be argued to indicate an earlier, unedited Josephan version.

One of these is the so-called Pseudo Hegesippus’ De excidio urbis Hierosolymitanae: a loose paraphrase of Josephus’ Jewish War dating to the late fourth century. This text includes a paraphrase of the TF which includes all of its elements except two. This version does not mention that Pilate sentenced Jesus to death and also omits anything like the statement that “he was the Messiah” (De excidio, II.12). The first omission is understandable, given that the author is using the passage in an anti-Jewish context and wants to put the blame for Jesus’ death squarely on the Jewish leaders. But the omission of the reference to his status as the Messiah is unusual. Pseudo Hegesippus also seems, unlike other Latin translators and commenters, to be working from a version of Josephus that is independent of the versions found in Eusebius, indicating a textual line that did not include some of the later interpolated elements (see Paget, pp.566-67 for the evidence on this). Similarly, in the later Greek textual traditions, we find the sixth century historian John Malas, the tenth century Pseudo Simon the Logothete and the twelfth century Georgias Kedrenos, whose renditions of the passage all omit the statement “he was the Messiah”.

The variant that differs most from the textus receptus is found in the tenth century Arabic Christian writer Agapius, who paraphrases the TF in his chronicle (Kitâb al-‛unwân II:15–16) and not only omits the “he was the Messiah” claim, but also the “if indeed it is necessary to call him a man” comment. Then we have a twelfth century Syriac version of the TF by Michael the Syrian (Chronicle 10:20) which says “he was thought to be the Messiah” instead of the bald assertion that he was the Messiah. Finally, we have Jerome’s Latin paraphrase in his De Viris Illustribus 13 which renders the Messiah line as “et credebatur esse Christus” (he was believed to be the Messiah).

Much ink has been spilled on how these indirect variants can be explained, what texts these writers were working from and what all this may mean for the issue of wholesale interpolation versus partial authenticity. The issue is complex, because it is not clear if any of these writers were working from now lost textual variants of Josephus that were independent of our current textus receptus. It can be argued that Pseudo Hegesippus was, but this is not certain. And Agapius, Michael and Jerome all seem to be dependent on Eusebius or versions of the TF that were, so their variations are suggestive, but far from conclusive.

As perceptive and judicious as ever, Paget observes “assessing this evidence is difficult” (p. 570). He notes the issues regarding the lines of textual dependence mentioned above and points out that there is no clear pattern to the variants: “their versions never precisely chime in with each other.” Despite this, he feels that there may well be some fire beneath all the smoke:

[B]efore dismissing the case for supporting certain textual emendations witnessed in the indirect tradition, we still have to ask why a variety of Latin, Greek, and Semitic authors, many of whom wrote independently of each other, do hint at a possibly more neutral version of the TF than the one which stands in our received text, particularly as this relates to Jesus’ messianic identity, while other witnesses, often contemporary with the ‘neutral’ versions, produce the received version.

(p. 571)

While there is no clear line of argument through all these variants to a definitive original, neutral Josephan text, their existence in so many different strands of tradition is significant, as is the fact they are found in exactly the parts of the passage that are already suspect on other grounds. Culminatively, they indicate an original neutral passage that was added to in various different ways, even if this is not conclusive.

Finally, the Jesus-James reference in AJ XX.200 is almost universally considered authentic by Josephus scholars (again, see Jesus Mythicism 2: “James the Brother of the Lord”). While it is far from unknown for Josephus to identify figures in his narrative by reference to people he does not mention elsewhere, a number of scholars have noted that the reference to “that Jesus who was called Messiah” in Book XX makes a great deal of sense as referring the reader back to an earlier account of this Jesus.

Taken together, all the attributes of the passage outlined above have led many scholars to accept that it is partially authentic, with some added Christian elements. By examining the elements which are and are not most likely Josephan in style and content, several scholars have suggested reconstructions of what the original passage may have said. In his paper noted above, Meier offers the following:

“At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. And when [or better: although] Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians (named after him) has not died out.”

(Meier, p. 87)

Meier arrives at his “modest proposal” regarding the likely original text largely by removing three elements from the TF which he argues “interrupt the flow of what is otherwise a concise text carefully written in a fairly neutral–or even purposely ambiguous-tone” (p. 87). These are (i) the parenthetical “if if indeed it is necessary to call him a man”, (ii) the bald assertion that “he was the Messiah” and (iii) the resurrection appearance and its prophecies. Take out these sections and he argues the text not only reads like something Josephus would say, but also “the flow of thought is clear”: a wise man attracts adherents by two elements that the Greco-Roman world thought marked such men; miracles and effective teaching. However, this also attracts the animosity of some leading Jews and so he is executed, but his followers continue to hold him in esteem. Meier argues that the clearly Christian elements he has removed break up this flow of thought, but once these elements are removed, the language in the passage conforms to Josephan usage quite neatly.

The esteemed Jewish scholar, the late Geza Vermes, proposed a very similar reconstruction, using much the same lines of reasoning as Meier. His reads:

“About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man…For he was one who performed paradoxical deeds and was the teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews [and many Greeks?]. He was [called] the Christ. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him…And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”

(Vermes, “Jesus in the Eyes of Josephus”, Standpoint, 14 December, 2009)

Some scholars who accept partial authenticity disagree with the inclusion of some elements Meier and Vermes have retained – particularly the “startling/paradoxical deeds” reference – while others, such as Whealey make arguments for retaining even more of the textus receptus than is found in these reconstructions. But it is clear that there is far more to this position than merely assuming partial authenticity and simply removing the most obviously Christian elements. And given that this position is accepted as readily by many Jewish and non-Christian scholars as Christian ones, Mythicist attempts to dismiss it as merely the hopes of “wishful apologists” are patently absurd.

But it is important to emphasise that all of the arguments above can and are challenged and this argument is not in any way definitive, even if it has majority acceptance. A valid and scholarly case can be made against it and for the position of wholesale interpolation.

“The Tribe of the Christians”

It would take a vast effort to go over all of the arguments against the case for partial authenticity sketched out above, let alone all the counters to those arguments. Paget’s article on the matter runs to 84 closely argued and extensively annotated pages and is still not comprehensive. Whealey has written a whole 231 page book on the reception history of the TF which, given the ongoing scholarship on the question, is already out of date – see Josephus on Jesus: The Testimonium Flavianum Controversy from Late Antiquity to Modern Times (New York, 2003). Suffice it to say that this majority position is supported by solid argument even if it is not conclusive or at all definitive.

But Mythicists like to claim that the minority opinion that the TF is a wholesale interpolation is stronger. Or is even patently definitive. This is a very bold claim.

As already mentioned, the idea that the TF is inauthentic first arose due to the perception that a Jew like Josephus could not have written what the passage says about Jesus, particularly the references to him being more than just a man, being the Messiah and rising from the dead. Many modern Mythicists argue that even if we remove these highly Christian elements, the tone of the passage is still too positive for it to be something Josephus would say about a figure like Jesus. Amateur Mythicist Earl Doherty argues:

[I]n the case of every other would-be messiah or popular leader opposed to or executed by the Romans, he has nothing but evil to say.

(Doherty, Jesus: Neither God nor Man – The Case for a Mythical Jesus, (Ottowa; 2009), p. 535)

But given that the reference to him being the Messiah is one of the elements in the passage that virtually everyone agrees is not original, this argument loses most of its force. Even if the original TF simply said he was “called Messiah” (as per AJ XX.200) or was “thought to be/believed to be the Messiah” (as per the indications of the indirect textual evidence), the key point here is the passage does not depict Jesus as leading any kind of popular rebellion or political mass movement, as Josephus does with, say, Simon of Perea (AJ XVII.273-277), Theudas (AJ XX.97-98) or the “Egyptian Prophet” (AJ XX.169-171). This passage is more like the Josephan account of John the Baptist – a wise man who runs afoul of the Jewish establishment and is executed as a result (AJ XVIII.116-119) – than an account of a rebel or anti-Roman rabble rouser.

Doherty also objects to the idea that Josephus would call Jesus a “wise man” who taught “such men as receive the truth with pleasure”. This line of argument has a long pedigree and is based on an outdated conception of the early Jesus Sect as a distinct religion that was wholly incompatible with and so opposed by the Judaism of the day. More recent appraisals see the first century followers of Jesus as very much a part of Second Temple Judaism, with the drift toward conceptions of Jesus that made it incompatible with the Jewish tradition only developing later – on this see Paula Fredriksen’s excellent When Christians Were Jews: The First Generation (Yale: 2018). So Doherty’s argument depends on a rather old fashioned conception of how a Jew like Josephus would see Jesus. It is entirely consistent with what we know that Josephus could see Jesus as a wise teacher in the Jewish prophetic tradition without necessarily agreeing with everything he taught (assuming he had any detailed knowledge of what his teachings actually were).

Another very early objection to the authenticity of the passage which is still argued by Mythicists is that the TF is out of place and does not fit well with the surrounding narrative. This remains a popular argument for wholesale interpolation among Mythicists. Fitzgerald summarises it:

Many commentators, including Doherty, G.A. Wells and Peter Kirby, have noted that without the Testimonium passage, the two passages flanking it flow seamlessly into each other. This fact alone is a tremendous indication that the passage is entirely fraudulent.

(Fitzgerald, Nailed, pp. 52-3)

This has also been noted by much more eminent scholars, most extensively by Eduard Norden (“Josephus und Tacitus uber Jesus Christus und seine messianische Prophetie”, 1913, in Abraham Schalit, Josephusforschung Darmstadt 1973, pp. 27–69). But despite Fitzgerald’s enthusiasm, this argument is not as “tremendous” as he makes out. As various other scholars have noted in response to Norden, Josephus has a characteristically meandering style and digressions are common in his narratives. In fact, there are no less than eleven figures mentioned by Josephus whose references can be easily removed from their context without interrupting the flow of the surrounding passages:

  • 1. Honi the Circle-Drawer –  AJ XIV.21-28.
  • 2. Galilean Cave Brigands  – War I.304-313 and AJ XIV.415-430.
  • 3. Judas son of Hezekiah – War II.56 and AJ XVII.271-272.
  • 4. Simon of Peraea – War II.57-59 and AJ XVII.273-277.
  • 5. Athronges – War II.60-65 and AJ XVII.278-284.
  • 6. Tholomaus – AJ XX.5.
  • 7. Theudas –  AJ XX.97-98.
  • 8. Eleazar ben Dinai – War II.235-235 and  AJ XX.161.
  • 9. The Egyptian prophet – War II.259-263 and AJ XX.169-171.
  • 10. An anonymous prophet –  AJ XX.188.
  • 11. Eleazar, an exorcist – AJ VIII.46-49.

Norden also argues that the anecdotes in the passages before and after the TF all detail “disturbances” or θόρυβοι, while the TF does not. Further, the passage following the TF begins with reference to “another sad calamity [that] put the Jews into disorder”, with the argument being that the TF does not present any “calamity” or any “disorder”. This too is tenuous, since the execution of a “wise man” who had won over “many Jews” thanks to “the accusation of some of the principal men among us” could be seen as both a calamity and “disorder” among the Jews. The word θόρυβοι is not used in the TF, but the concept is at least implicit. So the passage is not as out of context as many Mythicists maintain and its digressionary nature is actually quite characteristic of Josephus. Even Doherty has to admit that this argument does not carry much weight as a result.

A seemingly more powerful argument against partial authenticity is an argument from silence. Fitzgerald again:

Perhaps the major giveaway is that this passage does not appear until the 4th century. For the first 300 years of its existence, there is no mention of the Testimonium anywhere. This couldn’t have been simply because no one happened to read it; Josephus’ histories were immensely popular and pored over by scholars.

(Fitzgerald, Nailed, p. 53)

Citing Michael Hardwick’s Josephus as an Historical Source in Patristic Literature Through Eusebius (Brown Judaic Studies, 1989), he notes that “more than a dozen early Christian writers …. are known to have read and commented on the works of Josephus” and questions why none of them mentioned the TF. This looks like a solid argument at first blush, until it is realised it is not “the works of Josephus” generally which are in scope here, but more specifically Antiquities alone; since that is where the TF is found. After all, it is not as though these writers had access to a nice modern Complete Collected Works of Flavius Josephus edition from the Loeb Classical Library. Then we also need to filter out the references to Antiquities which are derived via an intermediary rather from access to the work itself. Once this more precise focus is applied to Fitzgerald’s usual hyperbole, his “more than a dozen” quickly shrivels to perhaps just five. And even that is being extremely generous.

Narrow things down to this relevant evidence and we are left with:

(i) Methodius, On the Resurrection, (II.18) – Methodius cites Josephus on the destruction of the Temple, though whether he’s referring to Antiquities or the Jewish War is unclear.

(ii) Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, (I.21) – Clement makes an argument about the antiquity of Jewish thought and gives calculations of the years back to Moses based mainly on the Jewish War, but which Hardwick and Whealey argue probably also contains elements from Antiquities. Wether he had access to the full work, however, is not clear.

(iii) Irenaean Fragments XXXII.53 – This cites Josephus talking about Moses. Whealey thinks this is based on Antiquities Bk II, but it’s hard to see how Irenaeus could also have read the later books of Antiquities, given that he was under the impression Jesus had been crucified in the reign of Claudius, whereas Josephus specifically says in Bk XVIII that Pilate was removed during the reign of Tiberius. So he may have been basing this on a second hand reference or only had access to the earlier books of the work.

(iv) Anatolius of Alexandria, Pascal Canon, 3 – Writing on the dating of Passover, Anatolius makes a general reference to evidence from Josephus and Philo, though it’s hard to tell from it if he has actually read either or which Josephan work he is referring to.

(v) Origen, Contra Celsus I.47, II.13 and Commentarius in Matthaeum X.17, all of which clearly reference Antiquities.

Of these, the only writer that gives us any definite indication of having actually read the relevant section of Antiquities is Origen; which makes the silence of the other pre-Eusebian writers rather less inexplicable. It should also be noted that, contrary to the expectations of Mythicists, early Christian writers before Origen did not use Josephus to refer to figures in New Testament texts. As Whealey notes:

Christians do not cite Josephus for any thing in the New Testament: not only do they not cite him on James the brother of Jesus or John the Baptist .… Perhaps most surprisingly they do not name Josephus as an authority on King Herod’ …. Christians paid relatively little attention to their history in the second and third centuries.

(Whealey “Josephus on Jesus: Evidence from the first millennium” Theologische Zeitschrift 51 (1995), pp. 285-304, pp. 2887-88)

Of course, this still leaves Origen: who clearly does refer to Antiquities, definitely knew of and referred to Bk XVIII and does use Josephus when discussing New Testament figures. So his silence on the TF poses something of a problem for the partial authenticity position. The fact that Origen knew and used Antiquities and yet made no overt use of or reference to any form of the TF was one of the reasons the eminent Josephus scholar Louis Feldman, late in his career, changed his position on the authenticity issue and came down in favour of the wholesale interpolation of the passage. Feldman was persuaded in most part by the arguments of Olson (see below), but Origen’s silence was also a key factor. However, his reasoning on this point is oddly flawed. He writes:

The fact, if it is a fact, that no ante-Nicene Christian is known to have used Josephus’ works in apologies directed to the Jews is certainly surprising in view of the charge, as seen in The Dialogue with Trypho, that Jesus never lived and in view of the eagerness of Christians to convert Jews.

(Feldman, “On the Authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum Attributed to Josephus”, in New Perspectives on Jewish-Christian Relations, Elisheva Carlebach and Jacob J. Schacter (ed.s), Brill, 2011, pp. 13-30, p. 15)

The problem with Feldman’s argument here is that Trypho does not make any charge “that Jesus never lived”. Here Feldman appears to be referring to a statement by the Jewish critic Trypho in Justin Martyr’s Dialogue:

But Christ – if he has indeed been born and exists anywhere – is unknown, and does not even know himself and has no power until Elias comes to anoint him and make him manifest to all. And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves, and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing.

(Justin Martyr, Dialogue 8)

But this is a complete misreading of what Trypho is depicted as saying here. The “Christ” he refers to is the Jewish messiah, who he says has either not been born or, if he has, has not yet been revealed. Then he says that Jesus is not the true Jewish messiah, that the idea he is is “a groundless report” and that in accepting him as the messiah Christians “invent a [messiah] for yourselves”. Trypho is not arguing that “Jesus never lived”, just that Jesus was not the messiah because the messiah has yet to appear. Elsewhere in the Dialogue Trypho is depicted making other arguments that depend on Jesus being a historical person, so the idea he represents some kind of second century Jesus Mythicism is simply wrong. Amateur Mythicists, like the regularly incompetent David Fitzgerald, make this blunder often (see “Easter, the Existence of Jesus and Dave Fitzgerald” on this and other such errors), but for a scholar of Feldman’s stature to make such a basic mistake is odd. Paget dismisses an earlier iteration of Feldman using this argument fairly briskly:

Feldman’s view that a forgery [of the TF] may have been useful in arguments about whether Jesus existed is anachronistic.

(Paget, p. 602)

And he then adds in a blunt footnote:

Feldman’s attempt to argue that Justin, Dial. 8 witnesses to such an argument is a misreading of the passage.

(Paget, p. 602, n. 269)

And this exposes a problem with the argument that Origen should have referred to or used the TF if an unedited original version of it existed in his copy. If all the passage in Origen’s version said was that Jesus was merely “a wise man” who was executed by Pilate at the instigation of the Jewish leaders, why exactly would Origen highlight it? None of these ideas was in contention in his time – and the existence of Jesus certainly was not. And if the original form of the passage was neutral toward Jesus, it would not lend itself well to any of Origen’s apologetic purposes. The only point where Origen could perhaps have used an original version of the TF is to counter the pagan critic Celsus’ charge that Jesus’ miracles prove he was simply a magician (see Contra Celsum, I.28, I.49). But even if we assume the reference to miracles was part of the original passage (and that is not clear), Josephus’ ambivalent and even slightly sceptical phrase “paradoxical works” does not seem like a strong counter to Celsus’ charge. If anything, it could even seem to support the idea Jesus was merely some kind of magician (though Eusebius does seem to use the TF to counter this charge – see below).

A further problem with any argument based on Origen’s silence lies in the basis for the assumption that Origen “should” have mentioned an original version of the TF passage given that he refers to Josephus elsewhere. The second person to use a form of the TF was Jerome. Yet he cites it, even in its current form, just once while citing or referring to Josephus no less than 90 times in his works. Origen, by contrast, mentions Josephus only 11 times. If Jerome used the TF only once out of 90 Josephan references, how much less likely is it that Origen should do so, especially if his version of the passage was a neutral and original Josephan one, minus the Christian additions?

There is also some possible indication that Origen was, in fact, aware of an original version of the TF, minus the later Christian elements. In two places – Contra Celsus I.47 and Commentarius in Matthaeum X.17 – Origen explicitly states that Josephus did not “did not accept our Jesus to be the Messiah” and was “not believing in Jesus as the Messiah”. These two categorical statements show that the textus receptus‘ categorical claim “he was the Messiah”, at least, was clearly not in Origen’s version of Josephus. But it also strongly implies that something about Jesus was in Origen’s text. Of course, this is not definite, given that Origen may have concluded this from the later AJ XX.200 reference to Jesus as “who was called Messiah” or simply surmised it from the fact Josephus was a Jew. But these statements remain as a strong possible indicator that while Origen saw no use for an unedited neutral reference to Jesus as a mere “wise man”, he was actually aware of the Bk XVIII passage.

Again, it should be emphasised that while none of the arguments for wholesale interpolation noted above are without their flaws, some of which are serious ones, and the counter arguments can be, in their turn, countered. There is no final knock-out argument on either side. But this does not stop Mythicists from claiming their preferred position is definitive and when they do so the villain of their story is always one man: Eusebius of Caesarea.

Eusebius the Liar?

That the TF is “a forgery” has become fixed in Mythicist dogma, as has the idea that Eusebius was the forger. Eusebius has long been a bad guy in the mythology of anti-Christian polemic and his reputation as someone who was happy to commit fraud to further Christianity goes back, like many of these things, to Edward Gibbon. In his The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (1776), Gibbon damns Eusebius in classic style:

The gravest of the ecclesiastical historians, Eusebius himself, indirectly confesses that he has related whatever might redound to the glory, and that he has suppressed all that could tend to the disgrace, of religion. Such an acknowledgement will naturally excite a suspicion that a writer who has so openly violated one of the fundamental laws of history has not paid a very strict regard to the observance of the other; and the suspicion will derive additional credit from the character of Eusebius, which was less tinctured with credulity, and more practised in the arts of courts, than that of almost any of his contemporaries.

(Gibbon, Decline, Volume I, Chapter 16)

Gibbon had a way of making things stick and his assessment of Eusebius here has been repeated for the last two centuries. Unfortunately, few of those who have repeated it have also bothered to check if the sentiments Gibbon attributes to him can actually be found in Eusebius’ works. As it happens, the only passages that could possibly be what Gibbon refers to do not say what Gibbon claims – see the useful analysis here by Roger Pearse for details.

But this pedigree in anti-Christian polemic, taken with the fact that Eusebius is indeed the first Christian author to use and quote (versions of) the TF, means the claim he is the obvious culprit for wholesale forgery of the passage is too easy for many to resist.

Rather more credibly, a scholarly case can be made to attribute a wholesale interpolation to Eusebius or at least to a textual line that derives from his scriptorium. This was proposed by Solomon Zeitlin back in 1927 (see Zeitlin “The Christ Passage in Josephus”, Jewish Quarterly Review, NS. 18, pp.231-55) but has been argued in detail more recently by Olson in 1999 in The Catholic Biblical Quarterly article noted above.

Olson presents arguments against the partial authenticity position; some of which have been argued before and some are original to his paper. For example, he disputes Meier’s argument that the most obvious Christian elements in the textus receptus interrupt the flow of an argument that makes more sense if they are removed. On the contrary, Olson counters, the argument presented makes more sense with these elements included:

The qualifier “if indeed one should call him a man” calls for the explanation “for he was a maker of miraculous works.” The statement “He was the Christ” is the logical antecedent of “the tribe of Christians, named after him,” while the clause “for he appeared to them on the third day returned to life” explains why “those who loved him at first did not stop”.

(Olson, p. 308)

This makes sense, but so does the argument left after Meier removes what he sees as interpolated elements. So neither version carries absolute weight as what was originally written.

Olson also sees the reference to Jesus as a “doer of paradoxical works” as too conveniently close to Eusebius’ apologetic purposes in his Demonstratio evangelica III.5, where he counters the pagan claim Jesus did not do genunie miracles and was simply a trickster, concluding “it is perhaps incredible that Josephus should have written a passage so useful to Eusebius’ apologetics” (p. 309). But Whealey is not convinced that the Josephan reference to these “paradoxical works” is as useful to Eusebius as Olson claims, arguing:

Eusebius does not explicitly use Testimonium’s straightforward claim that Jesus was παραδόξων ἔργων ποιητής …. although he seems to allude to this part of the Testimonium indirectly at d.e. III 5, 103 just before quoting it in full. Eusebius apparently did not find this phrase per se adequate to use against such critics …

(Whealey,  “Josephus, Eusebius of Caesarea, and the Testimonium Flavianum.” In Josephus und das Neue Testament, ed. C. Böttrich and Jenz Herzer, Tübingen, 2007, pp. 73-176, p. 80)

Much of Olson’s paper and his subsequent arguments elsewhere rely on analysis of the language of the TF, arguing all of it can be found in the works of Eusebius. So, again, the phrase παραδόξων ἔργων ποιητής (a doer of paradoxical works) can be found several times in Eusebius to describe Jesus (Dem. Evang. II.5.115, 123, 125; Hist. eccl. I.2.23) and he notes that “Josephus never uses poiētēs in the sense of ‘maker’ rather than ‘poet’, and he never combines forms of paradoxos and poieõ in the sense of “miracle-making” (p. 310). Whealey counters that (as already noted above), the term “paradoxical works” is found elsewhere in Josephus to describe miracles, both real and apparent. As for the word ποιητής (maker, doer, inventor, creator), she argues we cannot be sure whether Eusebius wrote this phrase or it is “only evidence that Eusebius has been influenced by the Testimonium itself to describe Jesus in these terms in his early works” (pp. 80-81).

Earlier in her paper arguing against Olson, Whealey makes this point in more detail:

If Eusebius and Josephus were totally independent writers, a comparison of their characteristic language with the Testimonium might lead to relatively conclusive results as to whether the Testimonium were more like Eusebius or more like Josephus in style. However, since Eusebius used Josephus more extensively than any non-Biblical writer except Origen, and since he quoted the Testimonium three times in his works, it would be surprising if Josephus’ language had not generally influenced his own language in some way. In particular, the language may have influenced how Eusebius described Jesus in his own works, or how he thought non-hostile Jews perceived Jesus. Thus any study of this topic may ultimately leave us with rather inconclusive results.

(Whealey, p. 76)

Whealey’s extensive critique of Olson’s arguments and detailed, word by word analysis of the TF’s language and how it may or may not relate to that of Eusebius goes a substantial way to undermining the vast confidence of Mythicists like Carrier that Olson’s is the last word on the matter. Feldman is somewhat convinced by Olson’s arguments. Paget is not, saying that his “case is by no means a paltry one but is not as powerful as he thinks” (Paget, p. 577 with some detailed criticisms on pp. 577-78). Carrier confidently declares to his followers that when it comes to the TF “you can’t cite opinions before 2014” because of the work of scholars like Olson (and Hopper – see below), which he chooses to find definitive. But writing in 2016 Sabrina Inowlocki notes Olson’s revival of the theory of Eusebian forgery for the TF and then observes “but this has not found support among scholars” (Inowlocki, “Josephus and Patristic Literature” in A Companion to Josephus, H. Howell Chapman and Zuleika Rodgers ed.s, Blackwell, 2016, pp. 356-68, p. 359).

All of these scholars acknowledge that Olson makes sound arguments and presents a fine scholarly case. That is not the issue here. The problem is in the overblown assessment of Carrier that Olson is somehow definitive on the question of language and authorship, when that is absolutely not the case. The question remains moot.

And the same can be said for the other arguments which Carrier trumpets. One of these is, oddly enough, by G.J. Goldberg (“The Coincidences of the Testimonium of Josephus and the Emmaus Narrative of Luke”, Journal for the Study of the Pseudepigrapha, vol. 13, 1995, pp. 59-77), who actually argues against the wholesale forgery thesis. Goldberg compares the Emmaus narrative at the end of gLuke (Luke 24:19-27) to the TF and concludes from what he detects as correspondences that the two texts are interrelated. In his conclusion he considers three possible explanations for this: (i) co-incidence, (ii) a forger who altered or created the TF drawing on the Emmaus episode or (iii) Josephus and the gLuke author using a common source. Goldman settles on option (iii), rejecting wholesale forgery on some well-established grounds:

This proposal has the weakness of supposing that a writer capable of imitating Josephus’ style and daring enough to alter his manuscript would at the same time employ non-Josephan expressions and adhere rather closely to a New Testament text. A forger of the required skill should have been able to shake free of such influences.

(Goldberg, p. 15)

But Carrier happily accepts Goldberg’s analysis while totally rejecting his conclusion. In his typically overblown and bombastic style, he grandly declares that Goldberg has “proved” that the two texts are interrelated. Not even Goldberg would claim this, and his work is careful to note evidence that runs counter to his argument. And there is a great deal to be uncertain about when it comes to his argument. A full and detailed analysis of his thesis would take some time, so I would recommend this critique by Colin Green – Josephus on Jesus – Review: “The Coincidences of the Emmaus Narrative of Luke and the Testimonium of Josephus” by Gary J. Goldberg – which highlights most of the key problems.

But Carrier will accept anything that helps him to bolster his a priori positions and Goldberg’s argument serves that purpose. However, he rejects Goldberg’s conclusion that Josephus and the gLuke author shared a source, arguing “Josephus would never use a source so slavishly and unintelligibly as that”. Given that this hypothetical common source no longer exists, we have no idea how “slavishly” Josephus followed it. If Goldberg is correct, all we can say is that both Josephus and the gLuke author used it in similar ways. There is also nothing “unintelligible” about the way Goldberg has Josephus use this posited lost common source.

Then there is the fact that the idea of mere co-incidence is not as easily dismissed as both Goldberg and Carrier claim. Both passages are very short and both are doing the same thing: giving a brief synopsis of the career and death of Jesus in a few sentences. This alone means there is likely to be some overlap in structure and potentially at least some in language. If at least part of the textus receptus of the TF was then added to by Christians who would have been familiar with the gospels and therefore with the Emmaus anecdote, further overlaps in language become even more explicable. Finally, given that some scholars are now of the opinion that gLuke is much later in date than traditionally supposed and that its writer actually used Antiquities as one of his sources, the overlaps can be explained another way anyway.

Once again, what Goldberg presents is not as conclusive as Carrier’s overly cocky assessment pretends.

And nor is the final study that Carrier declares to be so impressive that it helps put final nails in the coffin of the partial authenticity position. Paul Hopper’s “A Narrative Anomaly in Josephus: Jewish Antiquities xviii:63” argues that linguistic analysis shows the TF is a wholesale interpolation. He claims this on the basis that (i) the use of finite verbs in the passage differs to Josephus’ usage, (ii) that the oblique way the TF refers to Pilate differs to the language used in the other Josephan references to Pilate and (iii) that the other Pilate episodes in Bk XVIII have “an event structure” more detailed and quite different to the way Pilate is presented in the TF.

Once again, Carrier bombastically declares that all this “verifies” the conclusions of Olson and the argument (but not the conclusion) of Goldberg. And, of course, it supports Carrier’s own arguments in his Mythicist opus On the Historicity of Jesus, which seals the deal for Carrier. Unfortunately, yet again, Hopper’s arguments are nowhere near as solid as Carrier insists. The brevity of the TF makes any linguistic analysis of it highly tenuous to begin with and different analysts can come to opposite conclusions. For example, using computer analysis of the TF and Josephus’ corpus, David L. Meadland came to the cautious conclusion that the language and style is probably genuinely Josephan – see “On Finding Fresh Evidence in Old Texts: Reflections on Results in Computer-Assisted Biblical Research”, Bulletin of the John Rylands University Library of Manchester, 74, no. 3 (1992), 67-88. Furthermore, given that pretty much everyone agrees that probably as much as half of the textus receptus is not Josephan, finding non-Josephan language and style in this brief passage is hardly remarkable. Finally, Hopper’s stylistic arguments comparing the Pilate episodes to the TF are highly subjective or can be countered by alternative arguments very easily.

Once again, as with Olson and with Goldberg, this is not to say that Hopper’s arguments are necessarily wrong or even badly-argued or weak. They have not been widely accepted, but they are valid, well-presented and published in a peer reviewed journal. The problem lies with the insistence by Carrier that these works supporting the minority position have “proven” or “verified” his preferred thesis on the TF is right and his ludicrous dogmatic assertion that we should “just admit it’s fake already”. As ever, he overstates his position, presents “maybes” as facts and uses overblown language like a rhetorical sledgehammer. Apparently the case is closed and all that remains is for everyone to “admit” what they secretly must know: that Carrier is (as ever) right.

Carrier is, of course, entitled to his opinion. On this particular question, he at least has some real scholarship to lean on, not his usual scraps of hoary Mythicist stuff from a century ago, fringe arguments by Price and Doherty and his own baroque fantasies, such as his silly “Celestial Sperm Bank in Outer Space” idea. As far as I can tell, Olson, Goldberg and Hopper are not Mythicists and nor are most of the other scholars who have accepted the TF as a wholesale interpolation over the years. But he presents his preferred position as though the case is closed on the question and – as the analysis above shows – it most definitely is not.

Personally, I find the partial authenticity position more persuasive. Paget, after 84 pages, 238 footnotes and analysis of 97 books and articles, acknowledges the ambiguity of the evidence and cautions against certainty on the question. But he comes down on the side of partial authenticity as well. Feldman, in a brief article that actually summarises the key issues very neatly, also acknowledges the case can be argued either way. Though he finally leans toward wholesale forgery (after having previously backed partial authenticity). Whealey, Inowlocki and others have assessed the scholarship that Carrier finds so definitive and simply do not find it compelling, and they accept partial authenticity.

So the case is not closed. The question is moot. And it is likely to remain so, unless new evidence appears.

The key problem here is not that Mythicists accept the wholesale forgery thesis – that is an reasonable position to take. The problem is the doctrinaire insistence that no other position can be held. This overblown dogmatism is not credibly sustainable and leads to the blithe insistence by online Myther enthusiasts, who have no grasp of the complexities of the question or the relevant scholarship, that “Josephus is a forgery”. Yet again, Mythicist bad arguments and dogmatic polemic lead to a dumbed down parody of historical analysis being honked as fact at high volume.

Further Reading:

(The scholarly literature on the TF is immense and spans several centuries, so here I will list the main studies I refer to above, rather than a full bibliography of everything I have read on this topic. Of these, I recommend J.C. Paget’s excellent paper over everything else. He is careful, balanced and has a profound grasp of the full breadth of the scholarship on the matter.)

Louis Feldman, “On the Authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum Attributed to Josephus”, in New Perspectives on Jewish-Christian Relations, Elisheva Carlebach and Jacob J. Schacter (ed.s), Brill, 2011, pp. 13-30

Paula Fredriksen, When Christians Were Jews: The First Generation (Yale: 2018)

G.J. Goldberg, “The Coincidences of the Testimonium of Josephus and the Emmaus Narrative of Luke”, Journal for the Study of the Pseudepigrapha, vol. 13, 1995, pp. 59-77

Michael Hardwick, Josephus as an Historical Source in Patristic Literature Through Eusebius (Brown Judaic Studies, 1989)

Paul Hopper, “A Narrative Anomaly in Josephus: Jewish Antiquities xviii:63,” in Monika Fludernik and Daniel Jacob, eds., Linguistics and Literary Studies: Interfaces, Encounters, Transfers, 2014, de Gruyter, pp. 147-169

David L. Meadland , “On Finding Fresh Evidence in Old Texts: Reflections on Results in Computer-Assisted Biblical Research”, Bulletin of the John Rylands University Library of Manchester, 74, no. 3 (1992), 67-88

J.P. Meier, “Jesus in Josephus: A Modest Proposal”, Catholic Biblical Quarterly, Jan 1990, Vol. 52, Issue 1, pp. 76-103

Ken Olson, “Eusebius and the Testimonium Flavianum”, The Catholic Biblical Quarterly. 61 (2): 305, 1999

Ken Olson, “A Eusebian Reading of the Testimonium Flavianum”, 2013

J.C. Paget, “Some Observations on Josephus and Christianity”, The Journal of Theological Studies, 52 (2): 539–624

Geza Vermes, “Jesus in the Eyes of Josephus”, Standpoint, 14 December, 2009

Alice Whealey, Josephus on Jesus: The Testimonium Flavianum Controversy from Late Antiquity to Modern Times (New York, 2003)

Alice Whealey, “Josephus on Jesus: Evidence from the first millennium” Theologische Zeitschrift 51 (1995), pp. 285-304

82 thoughts on “Jesus Mythicism 7: Josephus, Jesus and the ‘Testimonium Flavianum’

  1. As to the silence of the Church Fathers on the Testimonium – consider the possibility that Jews copied texts too. In fact Hellenophone Jews were the people most likely to copy Josephus before the Christians got in on it, especially Antiquities (and Against Apion) which wouldn’t have offended them as War might.

    There may have existed variants which wholly omitted the Testimonium, and other variants which blew it all out into the scurrilous legends such as have ended up in the Bavli Talmud and Toldoth Yeshu. Origen may well have stumbled upon the latter.

    I am speculating, of course.

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    1. “and other variants which blew it all out into the scurrilous legends such as have ended up in the Bavli Talmud and Toldoth Yeshu. Origen may well have stumbled upon the latter.”

      Why would Jews (other than that handful who became early Christians) embellish the verse?

      1. The Babylonian Talmud is much later than Origen. It is doubtful it had achieved its present shape ’til the time of Islam. (Variants continue even later.) Even the Jerusalem Talmud also post-dates Origen. He was a younger contemporary of Judah ha Nasi who promulgated the Mishnah. The rabbinical school would still have been in formation when he arrived at Caesarea.

        No one thinks the earliest strata of the various ‘Toledot Yeshu’ books predate the 4th c. or so. Why would they? There were not enough Christians to worry about ’til then. The earliest reference to such material is 827.

        1. BOOKS, no. But oral traditions and satirical performances yes. Celsus and Trypho both make reference to Jesus as a false magician whose real father was a Roman soldier named “Panthera”.

          1. Yes, there are scurrilous stories that precede these late works, but that’s not what you said. I was going to mention the inferred pamphlet Celsus was working with. Trypho doesn’t accept such stories ” This is not at all the kind of approach taken by Trypho. He never questions the character of Jesus or the birth narrative or his ministry. His
            argument is with subsequent Christians – not the disciples, as with Celsus’ Jew – and their assumptions about Jesus. Trypho is not surprised or persuaded by the existence of such rumours, “for these popular tales are not worthy of belief’ (from the very interesting thesis ‘Listening to rypho’ https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:2617a995-eff4-420d-8fa8-029b55557cc1 )

  2. “an obvious ideological agenda”
    Loaded terminology like “fake” and “forgery” justifies this statement. JMs project their own values on the copiists responsible for the changes/additions and tacitly assume that their own morals are absolute and unalterable. Confront them with this and they refuse to research their own lack of neutrality. Since quite a few decades that’s simply unscientific.
    The first JM I met was Earl Doherty on his website. Back then I understood historical methods even less than today; Doherty’s total lack of skepticism regarding his conclusion struck me immediately.

    “a passage original to Josephus that has been adjusted and added to by later Christian scribes”
    From first hand experience I know that JMs (whether big shots or their fanboys and -girls) simply refuse to consider this possibility. Their attitude is “it should not be, so it can’t be , so it isn’t”.
    My problem with JM is not the conclusion; as a staunch unbeliever I would think it fun if a strong case for a historical Jesus could be made. My problem is that JM methodology sucks as badly as creacrap. This is illustrated by

    “Given that this hypothetical common source no longer exists”
    In the case of the Q-document – this is a JM argument to reject multiple attestation regarding the Gospels.

    So of course all the textual evidence you provide for the conclusion that the disputed quote from FJ is partially authentic can be met with that other infallible trick: a nice conspiracy theory. And why not? In the end JM is just one set in the First Century (and for some afterwards as well). The similarities with Dutch pressure group Virus Truth (literal translation of Viruswaarheid), which downplays or denies COVID-19, are remarkable.

    “Mythicist attempts to dismiss it as merely the hopes of “wishful apologists” are patently absurd.”
    And of course it’s simply unthinkable that JMs suffer from “the wish is the father from the thought” fallacy.

  3. Great work here, just one more point, Carrier dismisses the TF as he compares it to the Emmaus narrative found in Luke (Goldbergs paper). This is moot, sense the Emmaus narrative was used to rework the TF.
    The Emnaus narrative *is* like the TF, but of course it would be as the Luke narrative was used to rework the TF.
    The Luke narrative *was* used to rework the TF.

    It is only like the textus receptus found in the MSS of Antiquities
    Since we know through textual criticisms that there were earlier versions of the TF, Carrier comparing them to the textus receptus is moot.

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  4. This is awesome. I wondered that you left out of your division of possible accounts the theory that the original was in some way offensive to pious ears. I agree that Josephus is way too early to have felt any particular hostility to Jesus or dread of ‘Christians’ – of the sort required by the memorably irritable ‘reconstruction’ of Eisler:

    “Now about this time arose an occasion for new disturbances, a certain Jesus, a wizard of a man, if indeed he may be called a man who was the most monstrous of all men, whom his disciples call a son of God, as having done wonders such as no man hath ever yet done…He was in fact a teacher of astonishing tricks to such men as accept the abnormal with delight…. And he seduced many also of the Greek nation and was regarded by them as the Messiah… And when, on the indictment of the principal men among us, Pilate had sentenced him to the cross, still those who before had admired him did not cease to rave. For it seemed to them that having been dead for three days, he had appeared to them alive again, as the divinely-inspired prophets had foretold — these and ten thousand other wonderful things — concerning him. And even now the race of those who are called “Messianists” after him is not extinct.”

    This is totally impossible, but the theory that by chance Josephus said something blasphemous to pious ears, and thus gave motive to the incoherently defaced text, seems to me not so bad. A recent proponent is F. Burmejo-Rubio doi.org/10.1163/15700631-12340055

    You might have linked the essay of Schlomo Pines, of blessed memory, which first argued for the significance of Agapius as evidence of a ‘neutral’ text. I guess by now it is a bit old, from the 70s, but in addition to introducing Agapius, it carefully lays out all the texts and controversy as it then stood. http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/pines01.pdf

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    1. As I note, the literature on the question is vast and there are all kinds of other ideas and sub-theories which I don’t touch on. I pay attention to the two main positions because those are the two that Mythicists pay most attention to. As I have had to explain twice already in a Reddit discussion about my article, it is not a summary of all positions on the question and it is also not a defence of the majority view. I’m simply refuting the Mythicist claim that the minority view is somehow clearly right and the question is closed. It isn’t.

      Yes, an original form of the passage could have been negative and thus could have been substantially rewritten. But that is all speculative and any “reconstructions” of what was originally said even more so. I do refer to Agapius, but don’t bother with Pines’ thesis because, even in its modified form at the hands of Whealey, it’s undermined by the fact that Agapius, Michael the Syrian and Jerome all get their versions of the TF via Eusebius. This makes it very difficult to come up with a parsimonious argument that any of them somehow reflect an early, pre-Eusebian and original form of the passage. That’s why I simply note Paget’s observation that these versions and others in the “indirect tradition” give some indication of interpolated elements added to an original and leave it at that.

      If I’d explored every angle on the issue I’d end up writing a book. But that was not the aim of this article.

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      1. As for Pines, I was myself proposing to link him for people who came upon the page, having learned so much from his layout of material, not saying you should have discussed him.

        The opposition, ‘interpolated forgery’ vs. ‘edited existing passage’ vs ‘Josephus wrote it’ (!) makes little sense if you are interested in history, and this is why I mentioned the theory that there was something – falling in fact under the second heading – that the pious copyist was enraged something (which makes sense of the incoherence of the resulting text) . A scholar can only come to these conclusions together with a picture why. The usual theory behind ‘interpolated forgery’ is that the forger wanted something that would ‘prove’ Jesus existed. It can’t construct a motive because no one doubted it ’til the last couple centuries, and anyway would be minimally controlled by cleaving to what the author could believe. The ‘Josephus wrote it theory’ fails immediately because he had no motive to add specifically ‘Christian’ material. All the interest, then, is in the /division/ of accounts under the ‘edited’ column. That a scholarly majority fits under this column while holding wildly different views is classifying clouds by their shape – it is organizing the material with reference to contemporary mythicism, which is alien to the material. I think mythicism is frivolous nonsense and that even its proponents mostly don’t believe it. But the topic of the TF and how it came about is extremely interesting. This seems a correct historical attitude.

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    2. Oy, Mark

      > I agree that Josephus is way too early to have felt any particular hostility to Jesus or dread of ‘Christians

      Im not sure this is the case. My understanding is
      that Josephus attitude toward figures like Jesus
      may have been the upshot of his experience in the war.
      You may want to correct this, but I understand that Josephus was initially against the war and its messianic proponents. You can imagine a devastating defeat and his nearly fatal circumstances at the end, must have seared
      contempt for the messianic type into his memory. I suspect this is why he declared Vespasian to be the upshot of messianic prophecy. While he probably knew very little about Jesus, Josephus probably knew enough to place him alongside other trouble makers.

      1. The problem here is that Josephus seems to have differentiated between those who stirred up political trouble and violence and those who were teachers. He does not condemn John the Baptist the way he condemns people like Theudas, for example. If the majority view about the TF is correct and there is an authentic core there, it seems closer to his account of John the Baptist.

        1. Differentiation between those who stirred up violence, political trouble and teachers.

          The disturbance in the Temple, whatever it was, along with Pilate’s involvement fits the former. Moreover, Jesus relationship with the Temple authorities suggests another reason Josephus may have had a negative view. I’m thinking mostly about Chris Keith’s Jesus Against The Scribal Elite. My sense is that Josephus did not know much about Jesus and if the James incident was the occassion for him to ask around, he probably learned Jesus was a messianc claimant and of what kind of reputation he had among the Temple authorities. How bad that relationship may have been is hard to say. I can’t imagine the early Jesus movement having the attitude to the Temple they seem to have had if Jesus death resulted from a plot by “The principal men among us”

          However, at minimum, what some scholars refer to as the Temple tantrum seems a credible cause of Jesus arrest (though it goes unmentioned in Mark’s trial) and seems to be enough to create a negative impression among the priestly class. It’s worth mentioning that I do not think any of this undermines partial authenticity

          1. Fine, but we simply can’t know enough to make an assessment either way. We particularly can’t know what Josephus heard about Jesus or even if there was one, single view of him (unfavourable) among the priestly caste in Josephus’ time or differing points of view. We also can’t know if the Temple incident (if it’s historical – though I suspect it is in some way) was remembered or known to Josephus. Any position has to be circumspect. My only point is that the often repeated (e.g. by Mythicists) claim that Josephus would have been hostile to people like Jesus is too dogmatic and can’t be asserted the way it often is.

    1. It’s in /r/AcademicBiblical. Someone posted my article for comment and the Mythers and the resident contrarian (one “brojangles”, a notorious pompous twit) were most displeased. Several of them just could not grasp that my article not saying that either of the two main positions are right or wrong. So most of their responses are just reflex knee-jerk stuff. See HERE for the fun and games.

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      1. Ah yes, fun indeed. Example:

        “Imperial Christians had the means, the motive, and all the time in the world to shore up their take over of the ancient world. If it wasn’t Eusebius, it could have been someone he knew.”

        Solid pseudoscience can’t do without conspiracy thinking.
        Hey, I have another one. It could have been aliens who intervened human history once again.

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        1. Sounds like someone has confused reality with a grand strategy game again. Using religion and forgeries to take over the world is an interesting strategy if the game allows it, but real people aren’t basically omniscient eternal beings who make plans and set goals that take centuries to pay off.

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  5. Ah, I was wondering why there were so few comments – this kind of an article usually elicits a barrage of eloquent rubbish from your detractors.

    But I see you’ve been busy on reddit…

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    1. Yes, a few of the usual suspects from the tiny /r/HistoricOrMythicJesus sub stumbled over to /r/AcademicBiblical, proved they can’t sustain a coherent argument or make any kind of sense, and then scuttled back to their refuge to sneer from a distance. They are basically fundamentalist fanatics.

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  6. Excellent overview—as expected. I can’t remember where I read it, unfortunately, but several years back I read a defense of the TF in its entirety. The central argument was that there is nothing in the TF that Josephus couldn’t have gleaned from association with the Palestinian Jewish Christians in Rome whose community produced Mark some time after 70 CE. We do know that Josephus was in Rome at the same time. It seems likely that he would have had at least some association with the small community of Palestinian Jews with whom he shared his new city. Total rubbish? Potential shred of truth?

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  7. Thanks for posting this article. The most common claim of Jesus Mythers (after “no references to Jesus outside the Bible” and “don’t you know he’s copied from pagan gods”) seems to be “only time Josephus mentions Jesus its a forgery!”

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      1. Never mind that 99.9999% of those who’ve lived in history have no sources remembering them, contemporary or not.

        Even those famous to be remembered don’t always have contemporary records.

        I guess they just didn’t exist either. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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  8. Tim, can you comment on Eusebius’s general credibility as held by historians? I know you specifically address the unlikelihood in your estimation that he made the TF up wholesale, but does he fall more into the category of someone who is reliable or should most of what he says be taken with a pinch of salt?

    As with all ancient historians bias was not as much a factor that would count against them compared to today and all those things.

    How does Eusebius rate as a source?

    1. As with any such source, Eusebius has some clear biases. He is writing in a period when Christianity is in a position to be given a boost by some polemical writing and he does some serious boosting. So he needs to be handled with due care. But this is the case with any source in this period.

  9. Thanks for another enjoyable, stimulating and scholarly read. I am sure the majority position that the Testimonium Flavianum contains the basic text of Josephus, which has been “added to” by a Christian interpolator is the right one. Origen undoubtedly knew Josephus’ writings and he gets the reference right in Commentary on Matthew with the correct name of the work. As Tim notes, Origen mentions Josephus eleven times; this contrasts with his reluctance in the surviving Greek works – except for the Contra Celsum – to name classical authors. It is possible that he thought this inappropriate for commentaries on scripture; in the Commentary on John X 7. 30 he introduces a reference to the Phaenomena of Aratus – the opening words and the tag from line 5 quoted at Acts 17 v. 28 – with the words: τῷ εἰπόντι to the one who says etc. The reference to Clement comes from the Stromateis 1 21 147 where Clement notes; Φλαύιος δὲ Ἰώσηπος ὁ Ἰουδαῖος ὁ τὰς Ἰουδαϊκὰς συντάξας ἱστορίας – Flavius Josephus, the one who arranged (or ordered) the Jewish histories. This is a somewhat vague description and does not correspond to the titles of any of Josephus’ surviving works, though it is probably the Antiquities that he is referring to from the context of the passage. This section of the Stromateis is a chronological discursus, which acknowledges Tatian’s Oratio, and draws, in all probability, on Clement’s own notes. The vagueness may suggest that he is quoting from memory, or else his information may have come second-hand. Clement is usually careful in naming his sources, though not always; he draws on Philo frequently but rarely mentions him – four times – and in the Paedagogus we only know that he draws on the philosopher Musonius Rufus from the surviving fragments in Stobaeus’ Anthology. The problem may well be that our expectations may not be those of the Church Fathers – a similar case occurs in the Ad Autolycum (II 8) of Theophilus where he quotes the opening lines of the Phaenomena without mentioning that line 5 is quoted in the Areopagus speech, whereas a modern commentator would want to draw attention to this display of classical erudition. (Are we then to infer that Theophilus was ignorant of the Acts of the Apostles? Probably not as he seems to refer to it elsewhere; rather it was simply not uppermost in his mind at this point.) It can be frustrating when the Church Fathers seem to ignore the question we want answered, because it wasn’t a concern for them.

    Derek Spears

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  10. “At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure.”

    I’m sorry, but I don’t buy it. If we conclude that Jesus was an apocalyptic teacher, this “wise sage” image of him is out of place. It makes more sense if Josephus had said something like, “For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive such with pleasure”, “truth” being another interpolation. In that case, he’s sneering at such. There may be a whole archaeology of interpolations building one on top of the other.

    Josephus seems to have reports on anyone who was prophetic and caused a disturbance around that time. Yet no mention of a man reported to have walked into the temple under guard by a Roman garrison, and causing a major disruption around the time of Passover, after having made a triumphal royal entry into the capitol city.

    Would Josephus have admitted to someone preaching against the rich as “wise”? I doubt it, given his snobbery.

    I’m not arguing this from a “Mythicist” perspective, but trying to critically look at Josephus from the standpoint of plausibility.

    The problem is, once a passage is suspicious, any partial leveraging of it is going to be a pure construction, like *PIE roots, which may be very plausible, but we can’t assert them with any certainty.

    I’d be more willing to buy, “Jesus was called a wise man by people who receive thaumaturgical deeds with pleasure.” It’s more insulting and sneering. It wouldn’t require Josephus to agree with the idea he was wise and he would be poking fun at superstition. I would even be willing to accept, “And such a one they said was the Messiah”. It seems much more plausible to me, although it is again, simply a construction I’ve made up.

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    1. “I’m sorry, but I don’t buy it. “

      Okay. My article isn’t asking you to “buy” anything.

      “If we conclude that Jesus was an apocalyptic teacher, this “wise sage” image of him is out of place.”

      No, actually, it isn’t. Josephus has a very similar account of another apocalyptic preacher of the time – John the Baptist.

      Josephus seems to have reports on anyone who was prophetic and caused a disturbance around that time. Yet no mention of a man reported to have walked into the temple under guard by a Roman garrison, and causing a major disruption around the time of Passover, after having made a triumphal royal entry into the capitol city.

      So, this is an argument for partial authenticity.

      “Would Josephus have admitted to someone preaching against the rich as “wise”? I doubt it, given his snobbery.”

      That is based on several assumptions, including about what Josephus admired and whether he was aware of that specific part of Jesus’ teaching. Josephus had been the student of an ascetic desert hermit, Bannus. So the idea he admired someone who rejected wealth is actually quite reasonable. Be careful what you assume.

      “The problem is, once a passage is suspicious, any partial leveraging of it is going to be a pure construction”

      This is wrong. I detail the solid reasons that a partial reconstruction is not at all unreasonable.

      “It seems much more plausible to me”

      See above. Several of the reasons you give for what you consider “reasonable” are wrong or ignore key evidence. Perhaps you should leave this stuff to the experts.

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  11. I see no reason why διδάσκαλος ἀνθρώπων τῶν ἡδονῇ τἀληθῆ δεχομένων cannot be read as “a teacher of men who receive such as truth with pleasure” or “who receive as truth with pleasure”, again casting doubt upon those who trust such information.

    This allows us to keep, but now as an incredulous and mocking statement, ὁχριστὸς οὖτος ἦν, “This is the Messiah!”, its absurdity self-evident on its face.

    But I find it incredible that Josephus would not have gone more into the ἐνδείξει τῶν πρώτων ἀνδρῶν, “indictment of the leading men”. An indictment which led to crucifixion at the hands of the Roman governor? I sense more excision than addition.

    1. The issue is not what you find credible or not, the issue is what the contemporary readers of FJ found credible. You may not argue from a JM perspective, but make this mistake all the same.
      That means you lose credibility and according to your own logic both comments of you are pure constructions.
      Which is absurd.
      Which means that your “The problem is ….. certainty” is incorrect.

      Your point would have been stronger if FJ were the only source for Jesus. However multiple attestation is a reliable method. This means that anyone who claims that this famous quote from FJ is a forgery and hence should be rejected has to demonstrate that the entire passage is a forgery.
      Skepticism is beautiful, but remember Richard Feynman’s first principle: “you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.” That’s why skepticism in the first place should be applies to ourselves. JM arguments (and your problem is one) fail spectacularly in this respect.

  12. Great article. I have only casual interest in this but it amazes me how much scholarship can be devoted to something that seems to boil down to “part of this reads like something a person like Josephus might have written and part of it does not; we all wonder whether he wrote the parts that sound like something he might write.” Essentially, it’s a debate about what kind of forger is more probable: (1) a person writing the whole passage–trying to strike a balance between promoting Christianity and appearing authentic; or (2) a person beefing up the original text with some extra, distinctly Christian phrases. I certainly appreciate the competing inferences from this article.

  13. Hello, Tim!

    I want to ask You something about the connection between Origen and Josephus.

    Let me first quote Origen:

    “For in the eighteenth volume of the Judaic Antiquities Josephus testifies to John as having been a baptist and promised cleansing to those who were baptized. But he himself, though not believing in Jesus as Christ, in seeking the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these things happening to the people, since they killed the prophecied Christ, even says, being unwillingly not far from the truth, that these things befell the Jews as vengeance for James the just,…..”

    Source: Origen, Against Celsus 1.47.

    http://www.textexcavation.com/anaorigjos.html

    Origen thinks that Josephus should write that conspiracy against Jesus led to the fall of Jerusalem.

    How can Origen know that Josephus was familiar about the conspiracy against Jesus unless Origen alludes on the Testimonium Flavianum (TF) where we can find this quote: “And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, ….”

    Maybe Origen interprets that part of TF (“And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, ….”) as conspiracy against Jesus.

    This is only my interpretation on how Origen can assume that Josephus knows about conspiracy.

    What are Your thoughts?

    Thanks in advance. You are doing great job.

    1. “How can Origen know that Josephus was familiar about the conspiracy against Jesus unless Origen alludes on the Testimonium Flavianum (TF) ”

      The problem here is Origen may or may not be implying that Josephus knew of the conspiracy against Jesus. He could be saying “he knew of this conspiracy against Jesus and yet didn’t attribute the fall of Jerusalem to it” or it could be he’s saying “had he known of the conspiracy against Jesus he would have attributed the fall of Jerusalem to it”. I think the passage implies the former more easily, but it’s ambiguous enough that it’s hard to make a strong case either way.

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  14. I rarely find the view of the majority of scholars unconvincing .There are many solid arguments to support the partial authenticity, but I think the same arguments could be used in favor of the full authenticity, which I find more convincing. In fact I am thinking to write an essay titled “On the Authenticity of Test.Flav. Why we might not have much reason to doubt”. (Joking…)
    So,seriously, I would be very glad if you or anyone cared to review the following points:
    1.The translation of the phrase “ὁ χριστὸς οὗτος ἦν” as “he was the Christ” or even worse “he was the Messiah” is misleading.This is not a declaration of faith.I think the term “Christ “ here is a name not a title. The purpose is to inform the readers in general (or a particular reader that Josephus had perhaps in mind) that “the Christ” that they may have heard of,i.e. the person that some strange people(the Christians) worship,it is in fact this guy, “Jesus the wise man” that Josephus describes.In that spirit,the sentence “εἴγε ἄνδρα αὐτὸν λέγειν χρή” makes much more sense than a vague interpolation by a Christian. In context “ὁ χριστὸς οὗτος ἦν” it’s not the same as “οὗτος γὰρ ὁ χριστὸς ἦν” or “οὗτος οὖν ὁ χριστὸς ἦν” which we would expect as the conclusion of the previous statements.
    2.Josephus rarely uses so short sentences, which I admit is a problem for my view. But I think it may fit better and look more “Josephian” if we consider it part of the longer period “ὁ χριστὸς οὗτος ἦν [.] καὶ αὐτὸν ἐνδείξει….”. I don’t know the form that the text has in the manuscripts, if there is a dot or not, but I think that without it the text flows more smoothly.
    3.Many scholars find suspicious the phrase “ἐφάνη γὰρ αὐτοῖς τρίτην ἔχων ἡμέραν πάλιν ζῶν τῶν θείων προφητῶν ταῦτά τε καὶ ἄλλα μυρία περὶ αὐτοῦ θαυμάσια εἰρηκότων”. Could Josephus repeat uncritically what Christians claimed about the “holy prophets”? Why not? He has done it before for the Essenes! War-Book II- chapter 8.
    “Εἰσὶν δ’ ἐν αὐτοῖς οἳ καὶ τὰ μέλλοντα προγινώσκειν ὑπισχνοῦνται, βίβλοις ἱεραῖς καὶ διαφόροις ἁγνείαις καὶ προφητῶν ἀποφθέγμασιν ἐμπαιδοτριβούμενοι: σπάνιον δ’ εἴ ποτε ἐν ταῖς προαγορεύσεσιν ἀστοχοῦσιν.”
    “There are some of them who claim they can know in advance future events, by studying the holy books and using prayers and elaborating on the sayings of the prophets: they rarely, if ever, make false predictions.”
    4.I think that scholars (and everyone) should reconsider their view of Josephus and what he probably knew and how he felt towards Christians. After all they were a part of his people’s tradition. Didn’t cause much trouble, if any, and they were the victims of extreme violence. Why he shouldn’t sympathize with them?
    I.Zouroufidis
    PS. I am Greek, I have a BA in History by a Greek University, I studied the Ancient Greek language for years, but in fact I am just an amateur and I don’t claim to be “an historian” because I am not.
    Thanks.

  15. The variant that differs most from the textus receptus is found in the tenth century Arabic Christian writer Agapius, who paraphrases the TF in his chronicle (Kitâb al-‛unwân II:15–16) and not only omits the “he was the Messiah” claim, but also the “if indeed it is necessary to call him a man” comment.

    I would be reluctant to use this as evidence for Agapius using an earlier version of the TF that omitted these claims because he was a Christian writing in a Muslim state where Jesus was seen as no more than a man; a prophet, yes, but not more than that. Even if he had posessed a TF with these words, he might well have chosen to omit them in his paraphrase for his own safety.

    1. Yes, that is possible and may account for some particular differences between Agapius and the other variants. But, as Paget notes, the fact that there are so many examples of these variants in the indirect textual tradition and the fact they always seem to be in elements that we consider suspect anyway all indicates an earlier original form of the TF that did not have these elements and may have given rise to several versions of interpolated forms.

  16. The TF certainly seems relevant to mention in the whole context of that time and place, and possibly because the “tribe” remained to that day, as an explanation of the starting point.

    Anyway, to me, it does seem that if Origen stated Josephus specifically did not believe Jesus was the Messiah, could the TF have said that and Origen referred to it, and that part alone been later altered? That would mean there would not have been silence by Origen, but nothing else really had to be referred to. Celsus didn’t seem to think Jesus didn’t exist, did he?

    It does seem like the brother of James reference is kind of hearkening back to something else, because it’s such a small mention of Jesus, but Jesus is mentioned to make it clear who the James is.

  17. Tim

    Heard a very interesting defense of the entirety of the TF being original. Samuel Zinner interviewed by Derek Lambert

    I’m not sure, myself, about everything Zinner says, but he makes an interesting point about FJ writing for pagans who have little to no idea of what Judaism was and would not have known what the title Messiah meant.
    I don’t think I am bungling this too much but
    Zinner contends that Jesus Christ had become more of a name at that time so that when Josephus says he was the Christ, he is not claiming Jesus was the Messiah, he is simply referring to what pagans may have known about the claims of his followers.
    Im sure you’ll want to check that out on your own, but it is an interesting take

      1. Yeah, I had questions and it seems Zinner was hazy on some details.
        From memory, Josepus says something like he was the Messiah. If he meant ppl thought of him as the Messiah, you’d think he would have phrased it the way he does in his discussion of James.
        Also, the sarcasm bit is of a catch all. Anything can be turned into its opposite by just sayoling oh, they were being sarcastic. Although, the idea that Josephus thought Christians were ppl who received the truth gladly seems a bit odd and you can sort of see that he MIGHT have had something else in mind. It’s all rather tricky when one doesn’t have a good background to judge by.

  18. I am not an atheist (I am a liberal Christian), but I really and sincerely thank you for what you’re doing in this blog.
    Differently from other atheist blogs (like Vridar or Debunking Christianity), you use a rigorous and scientific method. You have correctly debunked absurd theories which are sometimes held by New Atheists (such as the Christ Myth Theory, which is rejected by basically all the academic community) and you always quote major and respectable scholars, wether they are believers or not (Catholics like Meier, agnostics like Ehrman, Evangelicals like Evans and Jews like Vermes).
    This blog is really a treasure for both believers and non-believers!

    1. Well, Christ is a myth (OK, I stretched the meaning of this word a lot) while Jesus is not (I’m teasing you a bit – I upvoted your comment).

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      1. Ahahaha, don’t worry. I’m a very open person and it is perfectly OK for me that people don’t believe that Jesus was the Messiah; I mean, that’s a personal belief that I hold as a Christian, but it’s fine for me that others disagree.
        What is not OK is people telling me that Jesus did not exist, not because I’m a Christian, but because it’s absolute nonsense.
        And I’m very thankful to Tim O’Neil for helping atheists to understand that one can be an atheist without support the CMT nonsense.

      2. I actually have some similarities with Ehrman: I too, in the past, was a fundamentalist who supported biblical literalism and I was shocked when I learned that, for example, The Exodus did not happen (well, at least not in the massive and extraordinary way the Bible tells us). But, differently from him, I eventually managed to keep my faith: I simply shifted from a fundamentalist faith to a more reasonable one and I now fully accept biblical criticism and scientific methods.
        I actually feel sorry for Ehrman: his life clearly shows how toxic is fundamentalism to Christianity and society in general

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  19. I wish I had read about you or been aware of your work a few years ago when I was super into the whole atheism scene. I watched a ton of debates and lectures and even read Carrier’s book. (Was a huge fan of watching Christopher Hitchens debate theists.) As a layman, (my studies were in the field of mental health counseling) I found the Jesus myth stuff pretty convincing. After listening to his book I took on the personal stance that Jesus probably never existed and at best was just some random dude who people made up stories about. I am not sure you have changed my mind but I will be taking Carrier’s work less seriously if I ever decide to get into this stuff again. Ultimately though I decided I didn’t like all the arguing and standing out so much as an atheist so I stepped back and started keeping my opinions to myself. When in grad school in SC I had a professor who would routinely single me out to ask me questions “from an atheists perspective”. Honestly it felt like I was being bullied by the professor though and took to proving her wrong which she did not take kindly too. Still had a 4.0 GPA after her class though so at least she didn’t take it too personally. But I don’t like all the arguing that comes with this stuff. I can’t remember who said it but they described trying to organize atheists as akin to herding cats and I think that hits the nail on the head. Atheists, I think, tend to pride themselves on being different than the rest so I think we sometimes disagree or contradict each other similarly to how you will see different denominations of Christians argue about who the “real” believer is. Ultimately I found getting “too into” this whole scene bad for my mental health and often toxic though so I stepped away and haven’t read or seen anything on in a few years. Today I was looking for a quote about believing as few false things as possible I really like and came across this page though. Now that I am in a much better place mentally I may dive back into this stuff but I am going to be more careful about what I read and by whom. I got a lot better at checking for good sources in grad school but though I say that it still took my too long to find your credentials on your about the author page. Anyways thank you for your work and for informing me about Carrier’s lackluster background and stance.

    1. After listening to his book I took on the personal stance that Jesus probably never existed and at best was just some random dude who people made up stories about.

      If there was a “random dude” then doesn’t that mean Jesus … existed? Or was this “random dude” not called Yeshua/Jesus? What make you think that? And why would they attached stories about a guy called Yeshua/Jesus to this “random dude”? How did this “random dude” connect to the later figure of “Jesus Christ” in the stories? I can’t see how this “random dude” idea is very coherent unless there is some actual level of connection between him and the at least some of the later stories.

      1. Just a guess, Tim, but the phrase”some random dude” tells us a lot. This is exemplified in Carrier’s bait and switch. He defines a minimalist historical Jesus but then switches to the divine miracle worker, yet it’s the former that has to be shown not to have existed for mythicism to work. This is the loose thread in Carrier’s mythicist sweater. Just hold it as he walks away.
        Watch him unravel.

        1. Yes, I see this a lot. The “random dude” or “amalgam of various preachers” as the point of origin for the stories seem more about putting as much distance as possible between any vaguely historical basis for the Jesus stories and the Jesus of Christianity. The problem is that this concept becomes increasingly incoherent as soon as you subject it to any critical scrutiny. Ask how this “random dude”/”amalgam of dudes” gave rise to very specific elements in the Jesus stories – especially the ones the gospel writers seem to find rather awkward – and you get … handwaving and then shrugs. It’s not actually a solid position at all, just a way of dealing psychologically with the fact that some kind of historical point of origin is clearly most likely, but without the messy hard work of determining what elements are and aren’t likely to be historical.

          1. “the fact that some kind of historical point of origin is clearly most likely, but without the messy hard work”
            Heh heh, this quite accurately describes my position. That’s because of lack of interest. How early christians saw Jesus after the Destruction of the Temple is 70 CE I think far more important. Before only Paulus of Tarsus intrigues me. The biggest fool of ’em all, Kenneth Humphreys (who actually cured me from JM) of course thinks Paulus was a fabrication as well. Sometimes the slippery slope is not a logical fallacy.

          2. Yes, I see this a lot. The “random dude” or “amalgam of various preachers” as the point of origin for the stories seem more about putting as much distance as possible between any vaguely historical basis for the Jesus stories and the Jesus of Christianity.

            The amalgam theory, to me, would mean there was a figure with enough influence to attract these other stories. There’s too much shoehorning for a non existing figure. Even some random dude isn’t quite right here since he was most likely an illiterate peasant from Nazareth

      2. It was just a figure of speech, no deep meaning. Just that some guy who probably wouldn’t have been very important otherwise (todays equivalent of a televangelist) got his entire identity blown way out of proportion. Whether his name was Jesus or whatever. I mean I could and probably am totally off base. I genuinely don’t care one way or the other. I was just saying thanks for informing me of stuff I didn’t know and giving me some food for thought while offering some of my thoughts at the same time. But your line of questioning as well as the follow up comments come off a little hostile when all I did was give my previous stance on the matter while expressing “I’m not sure you changed my mind” clearly implying I would at least consider my previous position as possibly invalid. This is exactly what I meant about atheist being prideful. I write two lines in a paragraph one of which isn’t even meant to be taken literally and you ask half a dozen questions challenging them while completely ignoring everything else that is written seemingly because I didn’t immediately agree with you. If you paid attention you would notice I also I said I don’t like arguing about this stuff anymore and that I wish I had read your work when I was reading Carriers work and was still interested in the debate. But you didn’t seem to care about that very much. You may also notice at the end there where I thanked you for your work and for informing my previous source wasn’t as reliable as I initially believed. Is it not good enough for you that you made me reconsider my position or do you just enjoy aggressively challenging any opinion that isn’t immediately the same as yours? Maybe consider how your putting your message out there in the future as currently you come off very off-putting (at least via text). Good luck with your blog.

        1. There was nothing “hostile” about my questions. I just wanted to understand what you meant. Personally, if I came to the conclusion he was just some dude, my next question would be “so how did this dude somehow develop into the figure of the later stories?” I’d then be looking at what connection the dude may have to the later stories about him and what, if anything, in the later stories may actually be historical. These seem to me to be the obvious next points to consider and examine.

          I find it very odd that some people can come to the “dude” conclusion but then just … stop. Maybe these people just aren’t actually interested in history or historical analysis. But I suspect there is some bias holding them back.

          1. Tim,

            I’m sure there was no hostile intent to your questions. However, I felt a degree of hostility the first time I read them. Sometimes these things come across in text even when unintended.

            Not that I’m asking you to change in any way, except to bring to mind we can come across differently than we intend.

          2. Again, I wasn’t being “hostile”. What you seem to be picking up is me being critical, which is not the same thing at all. I was also making it fairly clear that I think “well, maybe he was sort of based on some random dude” and stopping there is a pretty inadequate and rather intellectually lazy position to take, so I was querying what lay behind it. Constructive criticism and inquiry is not “hostility”.

          3. I find it a little ironic that you can hit the nail on the head at the end of your statement but still miss the point. I an not a history major. Most people aren’t history majors. Most people aren’t even that interested in history or historical analysis. My major point is, which wasn’t very clearly stated admittedly , that things can very easily get blown out of proportion in current times let alone in ancient times when people were less educated. When I say Jesus was probably just some “random dude” I just mean that someone, who may or may not have existed in history, had a bunch of stories made up about him (some of which might have a hint of truth to them) which got blown so out of proportion that it just seems too mythical to have ever been real. It was enough for me to know that there is a possibility that Jesus never even existed as a historical person as that adds more wait to the argument that the god of the bible is completely fictional. Because then, even if Jesus was an actual person who was mythicized, you have demonstrated how unreliable the bible is as a source for accurate historical data as many Christians often believe. Or at least that is my thought process on the matter. I am happy to freely admit I could be wrong. As I said previously, I am not a historian nor do I study history and nor do I want to spend my free time reading or studying history. I am happy to leave it at that until I happen across more/new information someday like I did with this blog.

            While I sometimes enjoy reading about this stuff and would prefer to get as accurate of information as possible I am not invested in this one way or the other. And you need to understand that even if your intent was not to be hostile, HOW you say something is just as important as WHAT you are trying to say.

            It is funny you bring up biases though. In my field of research we are trained extensively on how to limit and when possible eliminate bias as much as possible. Hell half of the work of scientific research, at least in studying human behavior and mental illness is how to limit/eliminate/control biases and extraneous variables to get the most accurate data possible. But it was pretty clear, to me at least, that NO ONE in any field is free from biases and having them taint their point of view. That is the reason for things like the double blind study, to prevent the researcher from consciously or subconsciously affecting the subjects of the study. So am I biased? Sure I am. Everyone is. Am I lazy for not wanting to dive into this deeper and analyze it when it is not my area of expertise? No and it is offensive that you would suggest it is. I do not have the tools, training, or educational background to critically analyze historical data. Nor do I have a desire or will to acquire them.
            Also take into consideration that what is obvious to you wont be obvious to others; perspective and point of view are different for different people. Expecting others to see things the same way you see them with the same level of critical thinking comes across as ethnocentric.

            From what I can tell from historical analysis there isn’t a very good way to control for bias. Everything you read or study is either the opinion of the person who wrote it or the interpretation of someone else’s opinion. At least that is how it seems to me as someone untrained in historical analysis. And as someone who has read a lot of (fictional) work that was translated into English I know for a fact that things like emotion and tone are not always easy to translate or interpret and then bring across in a different language.

            While your comments may not have intended to be hostile neither were they very constructive. As I said in my previous post, you ignored the bulk of what I wrote to question a position I am not even sure I hold anymore. While your intent may have been to make me critically consider the topic at hand you failed to acknowledge anything else that was intended for you such as how I am thankful for new information and how I was reconsidering the validity of my previous sources. Had you been more considerate of those then your comments may have come across as less hostile and made me or perhaps others whom you respond to less defensive and more accepting of what you are trying to get across. I do however thank you for your honest discourse on the subject.

          4. I’m happy to give you honest discourse. And that will include noting where your thinking seems rather too narrow. For example, there is a very wide gap between, “the texts that (much later) came to make up the New Testament have stories about Jesus which are not likely to be historical” and “therefore there was no historical Jesus at all”. In that wide gap sits the whole 150 year old field of historical Jesus studies. There is no binary choice between the stories being all (or even substantially true) and the whole thing being what you refer to as “myth”.

            And we can (and in fact should) do a lot more than just accept that there may have been some “random dude” and leave it at that. By looking at the later stories, we can examine which of them seem earlier elements and which appear to be later accretions. Again, the field has been working on this for a century and a half and has come to some well accepted elements in the Jesus story which do appear historical: his origin in Nazareth, the fact he had a brother called James, his baptism by John, his preaching of an apocalyptic message and his execution on a cross by the Romans. That means we have a lot more than some vague idea there may have been a “random dude”. This gives us the outlines of a very likely and particular dude.

            As for how historians guard against bias; the field has been dealing with that for a couple of centuries as well. It can’t be guarded against as objectively as it can be in, say, the hard sciences. But there are professional guard-rails that generally work pretty well. One of them is peer review and critical peer acceptance, which tends to weed out enthusiastic theorists who have failed to subject their work to sufficient self-criticism. Those guys tend to fail to convince their peers. And here we find your pal Richard Carrier, whose book is often enthusiastically received by amateur readers, but is regarded as terrible by professionals.

          5. “who may or may not have existed in history”
            The reason this question is important is because it’s about scientific methods. JMs reject well tested methods of historical research. Now that would still be OK, if

            1) they would develop reliable methods themselves. They don’t even try, so they are totally incapable of reaching any consensus except on “Jesus did not exist”.
            2) they would use their “methods” to other historical characters. They don’t. JM is one big ad hoc argument.

            So JM is antiscientific. Whatever you think of ToN, he fights one of the antiscientific movements that are so popular now. I think that important, so he’s an ally of mine, whether I like him or not. Dismantling JM is especially important because its fans falsely claim to embody rationality, enlightenment and what more. Like I wrote above I don’t care much about the Jesus character either, but I can’t stand that kind of hypocrisy.

  20. @James

    First of all, you’re a better man than I am, I could not have made it through (what was it 700 pages?) of Carrier’s book.

    Second, it sounds like you’re open minded enough to read and consider counter claims. I get that the expression *some random dude” may be a figure of speech for you, but its not going to be intelligible to people you interact with when the plain meaning is that there was a person even if everything we know about him is way over blown. At minimum, you need to be understood by those you interact with and that requires a bit more clarity on your part. No one expects you to be a historian or even interested in historical analysis, but forming an opinion on historical questions and commenting on the bias of the field carries an obligation to take it seriously and to get even a rudimentary grasp of how the field works.

    I, like Tim, am an atheist. I get annoyed by the whole you can’t say “a god” doesn’t exist argument, as if he is hiding behind the cosmic couch waiting to jump out and yell boo! God is a generic term that allows for way too much ambiguity. I also can’t say father doesn’t exist, but that is an abstraction and we are always talking about a specific father, so why be unclear? Why say *god* when you mean Yahweh? The idea that *a god* may exist somewhere strikes me as entirely nonsensical, particularly comming from someone who means Yahweh. Either we are talking about some hypothetical unknown entity that might exist somewhere or we are not. If we are, there’s no reason to conflate the two ideas and there’s less reason to connect this unknown hypothetical deity with any specific

    deity or tradition. Nevertheless, whether a given set of followers or leaders existed is another, and important question. Apologetics from atheists is still apologetics, Richard Carrier doesn’t recomend himself any more than Lee Strobel.

  21. If you can rewrite the TF to make it sound more like something Josephus might write, then there could be no objection to rewriting the later brother of Jesus called Christ text to make it sound more like something Josephus might write?

    1. The Jesus-James reference already sounds “like something Josephus might write”. So what reason would anyone have to “rewrite it”? The TF contains elements that are clearly later additions, but also elements that seem original to Josephus. This, among other reasons, is why most scholars think it is an original reference to Jesus that was added to, not a wholesale interpolation. People aren’t “rewriting” it on a whim. It’s because the evidence indicates that some parts are additions and others aren’t.

  22. Two questions.
    1) You discuss this primarily on the question of partial interpolations vs. full interpolations. Are there any modern scholars who argue for it being *completely* genuine?

    2) I saw someone suggest that Eusebius’s quotation was where the interpolations came from, but Eusebius wasn’t adding things to make it look better, but rather was giving quotes from Josephus while inserting his own commentary into it. The explanation for how it ended up in the Josephus manuscripts we have is that scribes looked at the two, noted the difference, and (not realizing the extra stuff was Eusebius’s own commentary rather than part of the original quote), assumed that those more pro-Christian remarks were taken out of the Josephus writings incorrectly and therefore added it back into their Josephus manuscripts. Do you consider this plausible?

    1. I answer those standard Mythicist talking points in the article above and others on this site. I don’t have time to “assess” every piece of Myther crap you find on the internet. If you want to object to or answer things like that, feel free to do so yourself.

    2. “Reliable, authentic, original” are clever sounding but intentionally vague words used to validate the ad hoc argument that JM is. Professional historians don’t take ány written source for granted, the Biblical authors not anymore than any author from Antiquity (or the Middle Ages or even afterwards), including the ones writing about Jesus. Compare:

      https://www.livius.org/sources/content/josephus/

      Ultimately the correct answer to your question is: there are no reliable sources at all on anything. So historians have developed and tested methods to find out what can be accepted and what cannot. And those methods are reliable.

      Such phrasing also to some extent implies a strawman.

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  23. Hi, Tim.

    I saw Carrier say on his blog that Origen would’ve mentioned the Testimonium given that Josephus calls Jesus a “wise man” and that this would’ve refuted Celsus’ argument that Jesus was a charlatan. So Carrier argues because he didn’t mention it, this supports a wholesale forgery.

    What can you say about this? Thank you. Love your work by the way.

    1. That assumes that (i) the original form of the TF included the “wise man” element and (ii) that it would have refuted that argument so clearly that Origen should have referred to this element in Josephus. As I note above, I think there most likely was a reference to Jesus at A.J. XVIII.63-4 and I also think the “wise man” element is one that is likely to have been in it. But I can’t see that a reference to it would definitively refuted that argument by Celsus. It’s always tricky to base an argument on what someone didn’t do. Carrier may be right and Origen may have not made this argument because there was no Jesus reference in Bk. XVIII. Or it may because there was one, but it didn’t include the “wise man” element. Or it could be for some other reason, of which there are plenty. It could be that the original Josephan mention contained other elements that Origen did not want to draw attention to. Or it could simply be that this line of argument didn’t happen to occur to him when responding to Celsus on this point.

      It’s not a terrible argument (particularly compared to some of Carrier’s arguments), but it’s one – like all of the arguments ether for or against on this subject – that doesn’t have enough weight to swing things either way. This is why, despite having my own views on this and being inclined toward partial authenticity, I always say the question remains moot.

      1. Hi, Tim. Thanks for your reply. It was very helpful. With Carrier’s argument, I want to try to take a stab at it if that’s okay. I’m aware I could be wrong so you can tell me and if or when you do, I’ll make my changes. Here goes:

        Josephus called Jesus a “wise man”, and then he says, “For he performed paradoxical works.” He says “for” to connect that statement with the statement “wise man”, and he used “paradoxical works” elsewhere in a skeptical way, as if he’s a deceiver. Performing miracles doesn’t mean you’re wise, whereas performing deceptive works means you are wise in that you can deceive so many Jews and Gentiles like that. Hence, Origen would definitely not cite Josephus to debunk Celsus’ charge that Jesus was a charlatan.

        Does that sound good?

  24. at no point in this article did you entertain the idea that the genuine portion of the TF could simply be josephus recording the hearsay regarding the beliefs of the cult he encountered. I am quite confused: do you think this guy really met john the baptist?

    1. Where Josephus got his information if the TF is partially authentic is another issue. It could be that he was well-informed by people who were around at the time or even from written sources that no longer survive. After all, he was writing at the same distance from the events as we are from Martin Luther King’s “I have a dream” speech and he lived in the city in which Jesus had been executed at Passover – a fairly memorable event. So what does “hearsay” mean here? Something can be “hearsay” but completely reliable, at least in general outline. So what is the problem?

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