Review – Bart D. Ehrman “The Triumph of Christianity
Bart D. Ehrman, The Triumph of Christianity: How a Forbidden Religion Swept the World, (Simon & Schuster, 2018) 335 pp. In his latest book Ehrman tackles the question of how an obscure Jewish sect came to conquer the Roman Empire and dominate the western world. It is a subject which can stir up both triumphant apologism and vehement condemnation. But in this book Ehrman, a first rate and highly accessible public educator, does what a true historian should do: seeks to understand the past, sift what mostly likely happened and explain why, with judicious commentary but without judgement.
Constantine the Villain
Ehrman has an ambiguous status as far as New Atheist activists are concerned. On one hand, most of his popular works are praised and held in high esteem by them for making clear the reasons scholars do not take the arguments of Biblical literalists seriously and exposing the flaws in fundamentalist apologism regarding the origins and nature of the New Testament’s texts and testimony. On the other he is denigrated by many New Atheists because he has the temerity to do exactly the same with the fringe theorists and apologists at the other extreme – the Jesus Mythicists. For the former he is lauded, cited and quoted. For the latter he is all too often reviled, scorned and rejected. Ehrman himself regards this dichotomy with characteristic amused sangfroid and gives the impression he feels that if he annoys the extremists at both ideological extremes, he is probably getting things about right.
In this, his latest book for a popular audience, Ehrman sets out to summarise the scholarship on how and why Christianity went from a tiny Jewish sect to the religion that conquered the Roman Empire, and to add some synthesis and analysis of his own. For Christians the answer to this question is straightforward – it is because Christianity is the one true faith and Jesus was/is God himself. For them – even for the ones who analyse the historical dynamics much as Ehrman does in this book – everything that happened from the execution of Jesus onward has to be seen through the prism of Christianity’s inevitable triumph. For the rest of us, however, the triumph of Christianity can indeed seem extraordinary and some of those with an anti-Christian bias feel the need to “explain” it purely by reference to nefarious politics and violence. And the villain of these stories is usually the Roman emperor, Constantine the Great.
There is no avoiding Constantine when tackling this subject, and Ehrman’s analysis rightly brackets his story with a detailed analysis of the conversion of Constantine and then with a dissection of its impact. As the emperor who turned the fortunes of Christianity around thanks to his conversion to the faith, Constantine has had an exalted if not always unambiguous status in Christian historiography. The Orthodox traditions have always maintained the most rosy view of him, which is hardly surprising given that he has, with his mother Helena, been elevated to the status of a saint in most of the eastern churches. The western Catholic tradition, perhaps thanks to the theological and historical buffer of the Great Schism of 1054 and an enduring suspicion of Byzantine “Caesaropapism”, venerates the sainted Helena but has a slightly less enthusiastic view of Constantine. Even the Catholic Encyclopaedia details his various murders and mutilations and notes primly “where the policy of the State required, he could be cruel”. Protestant historiography tends to be even less enthusiastic; ranging from a rather more disapproving and qualified acknowledgement of his role in the history of the Church to outright condemnation.
Reservations about the consequences of Contantine’s sponsorship of Christianity actually have a long pedigree and date back to well before the Protestant Reformation. Francis of Assisi is said to have traced corruption in the Church back to Constantine’s conversion and even no less a champion of papal authority as Bernard of Clairvaux expressed grave reservations about the impact of the (alleged) “Donation of Constantine” that was thought to have transferred authority over the western Europe to the Popes. More radical medieval critics like Wycliffe and Jan Hus laid the foundations for Protestant reformers like Melchior Hoffman and Gottfried Arnold, who saw the conversion of Constantine as the point where “true Christianity” was subverted and suppressed by a pagan corruption of the true faith. The Protestant idea that Constantine hijacked Christianity was taken up by later secular critics like Voltaire, Gibbon and Burckhardt and this developed into the notion that Constantine’s conversion was not genuine and was purely a ploy aimed at harnessing Christianity for his cynical political ends.
And this has become a mainstay of New Atheist historiography, almost to the point where it is stated as unvarnished fact. In God is Not Great, Christopher Hitchens writes with typical breezy assurance of how “[Christianity] was eventually adopted for political reasons by the Emperor Constantine, and made into an official faith” (p. 64) and similar statements can be found on various atheist fora, usually bolstered by statements about how politically powerful Christianity made Constantine due to the huge and increasing number of Christians in the Empire and references to how “he didn’t get baptised until on his deathbed” or even claims that this baptism was either against his will or did not actually happen at all.
This scepticism about the sincerity and even the authenticity of Constantine’s conversion and the questioning of his motives is at least in part due to a modern difficulty in grasping ancient approaches to belief, though it is also further evidence of how atheism in the English-speaking world is firmly rooted in stolidly Protestant views of history. Ehrman tackles the tricky historical question of Constantine’s vision or visions that we are told led to his conversion. He arrives at the sensible conclusion that Constantine did indeed have a vision or dream, or perhaps several of them, and that it was his interpretation of them that changed, moving from an idea that he should devote himself to Sol Invictus to the idea that Sol Invictus and the god of the Christians were one and the same and finally to a more orthodox grasp of the Christian God. The conflicting accounts of his vision/visions by Eusebius and Lactantius can be explained, Ehrman argues, by the fact that Constantine later in life filtered his memories of what he experienced through his eventual Christian understanding.
Ehrman also tackles the idea that his conversion was not sincere at all and was a cynical political ploy. Those who try to argue this line point to the fact that his triumphal arch in Rome and many of his coins include pagan imagery, note Constantine’s distinctly unchristian and sometimes murderous oppression and refer to that deathbed baptism. Surely, they argue, this is all evidence that Constantine was “really” a pagan and his “converson” was all a cynical political ploy. These arguments are fairly easily dispatched and Ehrman does so succinctly. On the issue of his continued use of pagan iconography, Ehrman notes that Constantine’s conception of who exactly his god was seems to have evolved from a “henotheistic” focus on Sol Invictus to an understanding that Sol and Jesus were the same deity and finally to a more orthodox Christian theology. He also notes that it would have been politically expedient to keep his iconography traditional and not to flaunt his new faith, especially in the earlier years of his reign when he was still consolidating his grasp on power. To this it should be added that, like most late antique monuments, the Arch of Constantine recycled elements and images from earlier structures, including reliefs from monuments to Trajan, Hadrian and Marcus Aurelius, and the “pagan” imagery tends to be found on these elements of the structure. For example, the panel depicting an emperor sacrificing a pig, sheep and bull is not original to Constantine’s monument and seems to have been taken from an arch celebrating Marcus Aurelius’ Marcomannic Wars. The depictions of Winged Victory are original to the arch, but are modelled on those of the Arch of Septimius Severus and are merely conventional. The inscription on the Arch, on the other hand, seems to be deliberately neutral on religious matters, referring rather vaguely to how Constantine was “inspired by the divine”, without specifying any divinity in particular. Ehrman is also probably quite correct in his notes on the iconography of Constantine’s early coinage, but it should also be noted that coins are notoriously conservative in their imagery and inscriptions. Roman coins continued to to refer to “the Senate and People of Rome” long after the Empire became a military dictatorship and then a despotic monarchy. And British coins to this day carry the inscription “F(idei) D(efensor)” which, ironically, originally celebrated this title being bestowed by Pope Leo X on the (then) staunchly Catholic Henry VIII in 1521.
As for Contantine’s rather unchristian executions of members of his family, Ehrman notes that this is hardly evidence that he never converted, asking “are we to imagine that someone is not a Christian if they behave badly?” (p. 34) This may be evidence that he was not a good Christian, or perhaps that he found being a Christian and being a Roman emperor in a period of ruthless politics was a difficult juggling act, but it is not evidence that he never converted. On the contrary, the pagan historian Zozimus claimed he converted largely because his crimes were so heinous that only Christianity gave him a chance to redeem himself despite their enormity. Finally, Ehrman notes correctly that death-bed baptisms were far from unusual in a period in which baptism was seen as the end point of a conversion, not its beginning. In the fourth century, once a person was baptised, the opportunity for the forgiveness of sins was limited and so many people delayed it until very late in life as a result, which seems to be what Constantine did. To pretend that this meant he was not a believer before this is absurd. As Ehrman notes, Constantine ended persecution of Christians, he showered Christian clergy with benefices and donations, he commissioned and financed the building of a network of churches, several of them monumentally large buildings, he restored confiscated Christian property, he commissioned twenty expensive copies of the Bible, he personally intervened in settling the Donatist and Arian controversies and he built a new city as his capital in which he did not allow pagan worship but which he filled with new churches and Christian monuments. His 26 chapter Oration to the Saints makes it absolutely clear that he was a fully fledged believer, given it is basically a defence of Christianity over paganism. And pagans were also quite clear that he was a Christian as well, as Zozimus’ sneer about Constantine’s sins noted above shows. The idea that his conversion was not sincere is simply not sustainable.
The Demographics of Conversion
Ehrman devotes a substantial portion of his book (and a detailed appendix) to the crucial question of how Christianity went from a tiny Jewish sect of perhaps a few dozen adherents to a major religion of millions that dominated the Roman Empire in just four centuries. The analysis here is central to this topic because it tends to drive two ideas central to the issue of the conversion. Firstly, did Constantine convert at least partially because Christianity had already won so many adherents by 312 AD that it gave him a demographic and therefore political edge over his rivals? Secondly, was it his conversion that tipped the balance and made Christianity suddenly so favoured that it won believers thanks to him and his successors and turned the fortunes of Christianity around completely in the fourth century? Ehrman’s answer to both these questions is essentially “no”.
The question of how many Christians there were in the Empire on the eve of Constantine’s conversion is one that has been tackled from various angles over the last century or so, and Ehrman gives a good summary of these approaches and their findings. He notes the work of Adolf von Harnack (1850-1930) who pioneered the question, mainly by analysis of literary sources. For example, von Harnack noted a letter from the mid third century of the Bishop of Rome, Cornelius, who writes that the church community in Rome had 46 presbyters, 7 deacons, 4 sub-deasons, 42 acolytes, 52 exorcists, readers and doorkeepers and supported 1,500 widows, orphans and other needy people. From these figures, von Harnack concluded that the Christian population of Rome under Bishop Cornelius was around 30,000 in a city with a population of one million, and using similar references from other cities he eventually arrived at a well-substantiated estimate that the overall percentage of Christians in the Empire was 7-10%. Assuming a population of the Empire of around 60 million in this period, this gives us approximately 4-6 million Christians overall.
Alternatively, and more recently, Ramsay MacMullen used archaeological analysis of the number and size of churches in the mid fourth century to arrive at a much smaller estimate; as low as 2-5%, however this is based on some assumptions about the use of church buildings rather than “home churches” and the regularity of worship for the average Christian in this period, all of which have been challenged. Roger Bagnall has used another approach via onomastics, or the study of personal names. Given that some names (e.g. Theophilus, Peter, Paul) are uniquely Christian, tracing their usage and spread can help map the spread and growth of the new faith. Using another tack again, sociologist Rodney Stark has used the growth of modern religious movements as a model to estimate how quickly a sect like Christianity could grow over four centuries. On the whole, Ehrman favours Stark’s approach, though with some caveats regarding Stark’s assumptions about the ancient world. He notes that families tended to convert together and, using a version of Stark’s calculations concludes, that by this organic growth alone, Christianity could go from just 20 adherents at the time of Jesus’ execution to 3.5-4 million by 312 AD and then a whole 25-35 million (half or more of the population of the Empire) by 400 AD. He notes:
“I need to stress that we are not talking about implausible rates of growth, even though the numbers at the end of the period are staggering. For the fourth century, if the rate really was around 25 percent per decade, that would only mean that every hundred Christians would need to convert just two or occasionally three people per year.” (p. 172)
The implications of these calculations are significant. To begin with, Ehrman favours estimates somewhat lower than the higher end figures of von Harnack and Stark and arrives at a total of c. 6-7% of the population being Christian at the time of Constantine’s conversion. Secondly, and perhaps slightly more unusually, he notes that even if Constantine had not converted, Chrisitianity would still have gone from this relatively low percentage of the population in 312 to over half of the Empire by 400 simply by continuing something like the rate of organic exponential growth it had seen in the previous three centuries. Ultimately, Christianity was always going to win the demographic war eventually.
This is because of a key difference between Christianity and its plethora of pagan alternatives. As a consequence of both its Jewish roots and its early apocalyptic fervour and urgency, Christianity developed an element which is not seen in its rivals – exclusivity. A pagan usually worshipped any number of gods and might do so at different times for different reasons. So someone may have a family deity or a local divine spirit which they honoured out of tradition, but may also have sacrificed to Neptune before a sea voyage or to Mars Gradivus before marching to war. Even if the same person came to develop a special personal devotion to a single god, say Apollo, this did not mean he denied the existence of other gods, discouraged his family or neighbours from worshipping them or refused to offer incense to some other deity if invited to do so. As Ehrman puts it:
“If someone asked you how you identified yourself, you would not have said, ‘I’m a worshipper of Apollo’, any more than you would have said ,’I’m a consumer of sea bass.’ You might indeed have worshipped Apollo on occasion just as you might have sometimes eaten sea bass, but that was not how you identified yourself.” (pp. 120-1)
But Christianity was different, thanks to the critical distinction between “adhesion” and “conversion”. A polytheist acknowledged and sometimes worshipped all kinds of gods. Even a pagan henotheist acknowledged gods other than their own, though focused their devotion on their god of choice. But a Christian either denied the very existence of other gods or condemned them as demons and not actual gods at all – either way, they avoided all other worship, condemned it as wicked and identified themselves exclusively as followers of Christ. And it was this unique exclusivity that was the real driver of Christianity’s steady and eventually overwhelming exponential growth. Ehrman summarises the argument of Ramsay MacMullen on this point:
“Suppose two persons were each promoting a new cult, one the worship of Asclepius and the other the worship of Jesus. A crowd of a hundred pagan polytheists gathers to hear each devotee extol the glories of his god. In the end, the two prove to be equally successful: fifty of the crowd decide now to worship Asclepius and fifty others decide to worship the Christian god. What happens to the overall relationship of (inclusive) paganism and (exclusive) Christianity? If our two hypothetical speakers are equally persuasive, paganism has lost fifty worshippers and gained no one, whereas Christianity has gained fifty and lost no one. Christianity is destroying the pagan religions in its wake.” (p. 126)
It is this accidental but ultimately highly effective combination of exclusivity and evangelical outreach that proved the key combination for Christianity and which drove the demographic exponential curve that saw it conquer the Roman Empire.
Conversion and Politics
This brings us back to the two questions posed earlier. Firstly, do these demographic conclusions support the idea that Constantine was “really” motivated purely by politics and saw the Christians as a substantial power base? It seems very clear that they do not. Even if we accept the higher estimates Ehrman discusses, Christians represented a small percentage of the population and, if we accept Ehrman’s or MacMullen’s much lower figures, the idea that Christians formed any substantial basis for a bid for Imperial power becomes even more unlikely purely on the numbers alone. It becomes completely absurd if we look at who these Christian were. All the evidence indicates that, at least prior to Constantine and his successors, Christianity was substantially a lower class cult. While it had a few aristocratic and learned adherents – who have more prominence largely because the writings of some of them are our main sources of information – the majority of Christians were slaves, “foreign” non-citizens and, substantially, urban plebeians. That Christians were so low class was a perennial comment by pagan observers as well as a source of satire and a basis for at least some anti-Christian polemic. And, unlike in modern politics, popular support from the lower classes played very little role in bolstering the claim of a fourth century Roman emperor. In Constantine’s time, an emperor challenged for and maintained the often precarious business of staying on the imperial throne via the support of the Roman army, the senators and the equestrian class, not the plebeians, slaves and non-citizens.
Since Augustus’ establishment of the Principate at the end of the civil wars of the first century BC, the Roman Empire had effectively been ruled by a aristocratic military junta, though one that covered itself with a thin fiction of constitutional legitimacy and some last trappings of the old Roman Republic. The fiction slipped occasionally, such as in the civil war of 69 AD where a new military strongman took control, but on the whole it was convenient enough for everyone for it to be maintained. This lasted until the third century AD, when the whole facade collapsed and Rome descended into the “Military Anarchy” – a 50 year period in which there were dozens of rivals for the imperial purple and 26 emperors rose and fell in rapid succession, some only lasting months, and the Empire came to the brink of total collapse. The Empire was reunited by force by Aurelian and then stabilised by the extensive reforms of Diocletian, but by then it had been transformed into something closer to an absolute monarchy and the emperorship had become both more centrally powerful and understandably far more paranoid about usurpers.
This was the kind of Empire that Constantine inherited. Diocletian’s experiment with two emperors and their subordinate “caesars” had broken down and Constantine emerged as the sole ruler by out-manoeuvring and then eliminating his co-emperors. He did this largely because he had the support of the Roman army’s officer class, or initially at least enough of it to give him an edge over his competitors. That support came from the western legions’ devotion to his father and then from his own proven skill as a general and he was careful to never lose the army’s support. The other key to keeping the throne in this period was the support of the equestrian class. These were the educated administrative elite who kept the Empire running, and after the reforms of Diocletian there were even more administrators than ever, given the institution of the diocesan system designed to reduce the local power of provincial governors by breaking the Empire into smaller administrative units. By the time Constantine came to power the thing the equestrians desired more than anything was stability and no return to the previous century’s chaos, and Constantine maintained a rigid policy of uniformity and conformity as a result.
The key point here is that both the military officer class and the equestrians were mostly pagans. There were some Christians in both echelons, but far fewer than in the lower strata. This means that the idea that Constantine, as Hitchens claimed, “adopted [Christianity] for political reasons” is clearly nonsense. Constantine gained nothing politically from appealing to the politically-insignificant plebeians and with only 6-7% of the total population Christian, such an appeal would have been minimal even if the plebs did wield some kind of power. But they did not – the military and the equestrians did, and they were even more pagan than the plebs. This means Constantine adopted Christianity despite its political disadvantages, not because it gave him a political edge. Hitchens’ claim, parroted by many New Atheists, is a pseudo historical fantasy.
As difficult as it may be for many modern people to understand, ancient people actually did take devotion to the gods very seriously and they saw that devotion as a kind of bargain. They promised due respect to the deity in question: maybe a one-off sacrifice before starting a business venture or perhaps a lifetime of particular (though not exclusive) devotion to that god. In return they asked for the god’s favour. Constantine does seem to have had some visions, dreams or religious experiences at key junctures, which he attributed to the Christian god, and so to have made this kind of bargain. As his military and political success continued, he continued to attribute it to the favour of this god. His understanding of this deity also seems to have evolved and then grown in theological sophistication as leading Christians sought to shape his faith, but ultimately the first Christian emperor remained an old soldier who repaid victory on the battlefield with devotion to a deity. This may be alien to us (thus the tendency toward anachronistic “political” explanations for his conversion), but it is how these things worked in the ancient world. The past is a foreign country, after all, where they do things differently.
The second question Ehrman tackles is whether, once Constantine converted, his conversion tipped the scales in Christianity’s demographic favour. After all, by Ehrman’s own calculations, the number of Christians in the Empire went from 3.5-4 million in 312 AD to a whole 25-35 million by the end of the fourth century. Given that persecution of Christians ended, Constantine and his successors sponsored the new faith and showered it with financial and political support and, increasingly, restrictions were placed on public pagan worship, surely this was what boosted Christian numbers to the point where they were in a majority by the time Theodosius made Christianity the state religion? Ehrman’s calculations indicate that, while there may well have been a political boost, the organic growth of Christianity means it would achieved these numbers anyway, regardless of Constantine’s conversion or even if his sons and successors had also remained pagan. I must say this was one of the more surprising findings of his analysis for me, though one that I did find convincing.
Reasons for Conversions
The appeal of Christianity for Constantine himself is one thing, but why had it appealed to millions of Romans in the centuries before his conversion; to the extent that most of them abandoned their previous religious beliefs completely? Traditional Christian answers have varied, with a heavy Catholic emphasis on the pious example of martyrs, a strong Protestant focus on active evangelistic preaching and missions and both claiming the example of Christian charity, morality and piety as the key factors. While some modern critics (e.g. the notorious Catherine Nixey) pretend there was not much persecution and so few actual martyrs, this exaggerates things and there certainly was a cult of martyrs who were held up as exemplars of Christian devotion. But this was mainly in the second half of the third century and the example of the martyrs seems to have been more for internal inspiration rather than a great inspiration for new converts. Ehrman also makes the point that, contrary to the popular view of early Christianity, there is actually very little evidence of much organised or large scale evangelical missions or concerted missionary activity. He notes that “outside of Paul’s work itself, we do not know of any organized Christian missionary work – not just for the first century, but for any century prior to the conversion of the empire” (p. 118). This may seem surprising to many readers, but he is right in saying that the few examples we do have – Gregory Thaumaturgus in Pontus, Martin of Tours in Gaul or Porphyry in Palestine – are individual zealots and exceptions rather than the rule. All other examples of missionary evangelism, which range from the possibly legendary (Thomas in India) to the solidly historical (Wulfila’s mission to his fellow Goths) tend to have been outside the Empire.
This seems to have been because there was far less need for organised and concerted preaching within the Empire, due to the way networks of patronage, community and family worked in late Roman society. As Edward J. Watts’ excellent The Final Pagan Generation shows, late antique society was an interwoven fabric of family, sponsors, patronage and favours and so religion, like everything else, was a highly communal and shared business, rather than a matter of private and personal conscience. Within this framework, Christianity did not need large scale, organised evangelism – the faith spread organically, family by family, from sponsor to subordinate and from patron to client.
But there still must have been attractive elements that enabled this transition. If it was generally not the example of martyrs or the rhetoric of public preachers, what was it? Ehrman takes the sources at their word and points out that, over and over again, they claim the main thing that changed people’s minds about Christianity was its miracles. Again, to the sceptical modern this sounds highly unlikely given that we assume that all miracle stories are invented and that miracles do not occur. This assumption was not shared by ancient people, however, and in a world where disease was not understood and spirit possession was widely accepted, a faith that began with and centred on stories of holy men performing exorcisms and faith “healings”, both actual and apocryphal, would have great appeal. As Ehrman says:
“Few people could claim to have observed any of these spectacular miracles of faith. But that was not necessary. All that was needed was belief that such things had in fact happened, and possibly that they continued to happen. …. The more the stories were told with conviction, the more listeners were likely to think they were true.” (p. 158)
Again, the scepticism about such things of modern non-Christians makes it very easy to overlook how much prominence Jesus’ status as a wonder-worker and miraculous healer had in pre-modern Christianity, and how much emphasis the miraculous powers, achieved through faith in him, had in the stories of Christian saints and heroes. But in a hostile and often deadly pre-scientific world, these stories had genuine persuasive power.
Ehrman examines another strand of traditional historiography regarding the attraction of Christianity in this period: the idea that the Christian community provided a highly supportive safety net in a culture of social networks, and one that was uniquely charitable, caring and supportive. The support of widows and orphans, care of the sick and homeless, the provision of funerals for the poor and the care of graves were all noted as benefits of belonging to the Christian community and emphasised as duties for all Christians under the coordination of the bishops. But Erhman does not see this a major factor in winning adherents, quoting von Harnack: “We know of no cases in which Christians desired to win, or actually did win, adherents by means of the charities which they dispensed.” (p. 136) and then concluding “we have little evidence to suggest that people widely, if at all, joined the church because of the communal benefits they would receive.” (p. 137)
Some reviewers feel Erhman has missed a beat here. In a generally very positive review in The Spectator, history writer Tom Holland wonders whether Erhman’s emphasis on his status as a non-Christian scholar necessarily makes him neutral and draws attention to a similar book to Ehrmans’ by the Christian scholar Larry Hurtado – Destroyer of the Gods: Early Christian Distinctiveness in the Roman World. Both scholars note that Christianity placed an emphasis on ethics that was not found in the pagan cults (though was found in the more rarefied and elite sphere of the various philosophical schools). Holland observes:
“It is left to Hurtado, though, to tease out what the implications of this might be for anyone looking to explain the appeal of Christianity to potential converts. That the poor should be as worthy of respect as the rich; that the starving should have a claim on those with the reserves to feed them; that the vulnerable — children, prostitutes, slaves — should not be used by the powerful as mere sexual objects: all of these novel Christian doctrines must surely have had some influence on ‘the triumph of Christianity’ among the teeming masses of Roman cities.”
Unsurprisingly, Hurtado agrees with Holland on this point, though is careful to note that his book is not really an analysis of what made Christianity attractive, per se, but rather what he feels made it distinctive. Overall, I think Holland may have a point, but it is a pity that Erhman seems to have brushed this kind of motivation aside so briefly. It was a point worth more detailed exploration. Erhman quotes von Harnack’s The Mission and Expansion of Christianity in the First Three Centuries (1902) and moves on to say “we have little evidence” to think these things were a factor, but we actually do have some. His dismissal of Julian’s claim that these things did attract converts on the grounds that he was raised a Christian and so was an “insider” seems a little glib. Similarly, the pagans Tertullian depicts saying “these Christians, see how they love one another” may be hypothetical, but the hypothesis needs to be somewhat credible to have much rhetorical effect. There is a danger in making out that the breadth of Christian charity was utterly unique, as this kind of thing spills over into Christian apologetics rather too easily and early Christianity was far more of its time and culture than it was distinct from it. But this element did feel as though it needed rather more than a couple of hurried pages.
Conversion and Coercion
Ehrman’s final chapter takes the story beyond Constantine and looks at the impact of his successors, both the Christians who maintained and expanded his pro-church policies and the single pagan, Julian, who tried to reverse them. It is a useful summary in that it is objective; noting the increasing tendency toward imposing restrictions on pagan practice without falling into the crazed histrionics and exaggerations of modern polemicists like the aforementioned Catherine Nixey and similar ranters. He notes the various laws constricting public sacrifice and worship by pagans and the orders for the closure of temples. But unlike Nixey et. al. he is careful to guide his readers on how these edicts need to be understood:
“These laws were directed to specific locales, not empire-wide, and there existed no state apparatus to ensure they were carried out. As a result, they had but little effect: paganism continued, unchecked, in most places. But the laws do show the will of the emperor , and this would not have gone unnoticed. Conversions away from paganism continued apace.” (pp. 246-7)
His notes on the brief reign of Julian and his abortive attempt at reversing the tide of Christian conversion is fairly standard stuff, though he makes a few interesting points. For example, he notes that while Julian’s prescription against Christians teaching the pagan classics to schoolboys seems relatively benign, it was actually a very clever stratagem, pointing out it meant “no longer could Christians teach the principal subjects of instruction …. [which] meant the next generation of elites would be trained exclusively by pagans” (p. 249).
Of course, Julian’s death in battle and the succession of a second generation of Christians meant his attempts at reversal failed, though Ehrman’s demographic calculations imply they were doomed anyway. Ehrman notes the increasing intolerance and tendency toward coercion that developed in Christianity as the later fourth century progressed, quoting Firmicus Maternus urging the emperors Constantius II and Constans to “castigate and punish” paganism while citing bloodthirsty Old Testament injunctions against “idolatory”. But he also notes that this was far from the universal attitude, also quoting Gregory of Nazianus’ far milder observation that “I do not consider it good practice to coerce people instead of persuading them”. (p. 256) Again, unlike the ranters, Ehrman wants his readers to understand this period, not stir up modern prejudices against it. In contrast to Nixey, for example, when he describes the destruction of the great temple of Serapis in 391 AD he actually bothers to tell the whole story, complete with the gang of pagan zealots who had holed up in the temple and were torturing and killing Christian captives – a rather pertinent detail that Nixey carefully excluded from her version of the story. His account of the murder of Hypatia is less clear though. He gives it in the context of anecdotes of Christian anti-pagan violence and presents it as evidence that “pagan religions in Alexandria may have been on the defensive” (p. 263). But then he details how she was caught up in the political struggle between Cyril and Orestes (both Christians) and makes it clear that this was a political murder. So it seems rather sloppy to then conclude it was the “murder of a pagan philosopher at the hands of a Christian mob” (p. 265) when it is clear from the evidence and even from Ehrman’s own account that paganism, philosophy and Christianity actually had very little to do with this political tit-for-tat assassination.
On the whole, however, his analysis is balanced. He notes the instances of violence and the evidence of some destruction of temples and statues, but overall comes to the same conclusion of most objective historians: Christianity did not win out because of violent coercion. In conclusion, he quotes Michele Renee Salzman’s observation that “it is hard to accept the interpretation advanced by certain scholars that physical violence, coercion, was a central factor in explaining the spread of Christianity” (p. 274).
He is equally fair in his assessment of what was lost because of the conversion of the Late Antique world to Christianity, noting that while many works of literature were indeed lost due to a declining interest in them by Christian scholars, many were also preserved by those same scholars and noting “such pagan works may have been lost anyway, without the Christianization of the empire” (p. 285). After all, as I’ve detailed elsewhere, loss is actually the norm for most pre-modern texts. Unsurprisingly, Ehrman does not fall into the trap of Christian apologism and its attendant denigration of the Classical world found in some of the work of people like Rodney Stark or David Bentley Hart. But, refreshingly, he also avoids the opposite mistake of misty-eyed romanticisation of the Classical past and corresponding demonisation of the Christians, found in Nixey and the ranters. He concludes:
“In this book I have tried to explain the triumph of Christianity without making it a triumphalist narrative. As a historian, I do not think the Christianization of the Roman Empire was inevitable and I do not celebrate it either as a victory for the human race and a sign of cultural progress on one hand, or a major sociopolitical set-back and cultural disaster on the other. I think it is impossible to say whether the world would have been a worse place or a better one had it not happened.” (p. 282)
This, and the whole book, strikes me as eminently sensible and well-founded, though it is likely to leave the zealots on both sides grumbling. And that is usually a sign that something like the right balance has been struck.
122 thoughts on “Review – Bart D. Ehrman “The Triumph of Christianity”
Interestingly, Nassim Taleb also notes that exclusivity can help your group spread and rule. He is no historian, and is a bit of a crank, but what he wrote here is similar to Bart Ehrman’s conclusions:
https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15
That was a pretty good article. But yeah, what happened with Taleb? As far as I can recall, he was seen as a decent pop-statistician with a few bestsellers, and now he’s ranting about GMOs and haplogroups on twitter.
I guess Dawkins syndrome strikes again.
I seem to recall Taleb’s political sympathies in his home country of Lebanon aligns with the more extreme Lebanese Christian factions who believe their identity to be separate from the Arabs and closer to the Phoenicians, which may explain his recent fascination with haplogroups.
Wonderful article Tim!
I’m a Rodney Stark fan when it comes to the triumph of Christianity but this is a welcome perspective to the field. Good review.
Thanks for this review Tim. I haven’t read this book, but I had read Hurtado’s and Holland’s reviews before I read yours. I am inclined to agree with pretty much everything you wrote here.
I find it somehow encouraging that you, an atheist, and me, a christian, can be comfortable with the same historical conclusions, despite our different opinions.
Brilliant as ever!
Thanks Tim.
Of course I’ll be ‘that’ guy and say, “Maybe Christianity succeeded, ultimately, because it was true.” Of course the tools of historical inquiry cannot tell us that. They can only tell us, at most, what people believed to be true.
I’ve observed in the past there seems to be two Bart Ehrmans. The first writes popular level books that seem to deny the rather fundamentalistic upbringing he had and, as you say, are latched onto by the new atheist crowd as fitting their simplistic “Christianity bad and stupid” rhetoric (ironically using the Bible in the same way as the fundamentalists, like those who don’t read a gap between the birth of Jesus as written by Matthew and the coming of the Magi some months later). Then there’s the professional Bart Ehrman whose works are far more nuanced and thought provoking, like this one. I hope the latter has a lot more writing ahead of him.
Regardless, an interesting review of an interesting book. Thanks again.
I’ve heard this “there are two Bart Ehrmans” stuff from apologists in the past, along with the claim his popular works are sensationalist and unuanced and his academic works somehow contradict them. But when I asked these people to provide examples of these supposed contradictions … well, let’s say their failure was spectacular. This seems to be a trope among conservative Christians who don’t like the way Ehrman popularises well-supported academic positions which are contrary to Biblical literalism and other highly conservative views. But I’m afraid I don’t buy it. What Ehrman does in all of his popular works is make the more complex academic stuff accessible by distilling it down into content easily accessible by the general reader. I suspect that is the real issue the fundamentalists have with him. I’d strongly suggest you don’t keep perpetuating the “two Bart Ehrmans” argument – it doesn’t actually stand up to hard scrutiny.
Fair enough. 🙂
I’ll have to take my chances on this one, Tim. I agree he doesn’t factually contradict himself between his academic/popular work, but the emphases change a lot. Ehrman has said, I think, that if he were put in a room with Metzger they would probably agree on the text of the NT everywhere but a dozen places.
But in his popular work and talks, we mostly see an Ehrman flaunting hundreds of thousands of differences in the NT manuscripts. Now, that can definitely be misleading. I’ve dealt with many crackpot atheists that were sure, since they had read Ehrman and all, that we can’t be sure of anything in the NT. They usually would bring up this nonsense when I show them a verse that directly contradicts their claims — they just cry that we just can’t know if that’s what it originally said. Ehrman is giving this impression on these people. So I am lead to believe there really are two Ehrman’s.
I could respond to this in defence of Erhman, but the man himself has addressed it several times. Since he does so on a part of his blog that is only open to members (he donates fees to charity), I’ll reproduce the relevant section below:
The apologists’ criticism seems to be have its origin in the conservative reaction to Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why (2005) and become entrenched as a convenient way of dismissing Ehrman ever since, often accompanied by insinuations that he writes these books to make money or to seek media attention. But as Ehrman says above, his popular books are aimed at the widest possible readership and his “ideal reader” seems to be someone very much like himself in his younger years – a zealous, evangelical Biblical literalist whose faith in the inerrancy of scripture is matched only by his profound ignorance of textual and critical scholarship. So of course he and Metzger would substantially agree on the text of the NT in most places. But they would also agree there are the vast number of textual variants that Ehrman informs his neophyte ideal reader about. This is not “flaunting” these differences, it’s just making sure that kind of reader understands how many there are and what this means about textual transmission. And therefore also begins to grasp why the Biblical literalist assurance about the purity of the Jesus traditions has serious problems. His emphasis on this in a popular book makes perfect sense, just as the fact that he would not bother to even mention it in conversation with Metzger or any of his other peers makes equal sense.
So there are not “two Ehrmans”. There is one Ehrman, writing for two very different audiences. This “two Ehrmans” stuff is at best wrongheaded and at worst a weak slur.
Surprisingly, Luke Muehlhauser from Common Sense Atheism loosely implies this dichotomy between the popular and scholarly Bart D. Ehrman: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=27.
Here’s a quote from notorious Christian apologist William Lane Craig’s podcast about Bart Ehrman:
“The fact is that the New Testament is established over 99% purity with regard to the original words that were written there. Ehrman knows this himself. He just gives lay people the false impression and lets them draw conclusions from his works by insinuating certain things that he really knows aren’t true. I heard Ehrman on a radio program some time ago where the interviewer, after talking to him about the corruption of the New Testament text for some time, finally asked him, ‘What do you think the New Testament text originally really said?’ And Ehrman seemed a little bit puzzled and he said, ‘I don’t understand what you mean.’ And the radio interviewer said, ‘You’ve described how it has been corrupted in all these ways. What do you think the original text really said?’ And Ehrman said, ‘Well, it said pretty much exactly what we think it says today. It has been reestablished and we know with 99% certainty what the text was. It didn’t say much of anything different.’ And I thought, ‘Holy cow! This is the completely opposite impression of what you would have from reading his books.'”
And there is absolutely nothing remarkable about what Erhman says there. This is one of many reasons it is hard to take Craig seriously. This, and his endorsement of (divine) genocide. Craig is a miserable sophist of the worst kind.
Speaking of William Lane Craig, he interestingly debated Richard Carrier on the resurrection of Jesus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-nmvdfG4sg.
I think Ehrman does give a different impression of the facts, depending on who he is talking to. The ‘variants’ in the NT is a case in point.
Anyone reading his more popular books would easily come to the conclusion that the NT, particularly the Gospels, as we have it today does not reflect the originals, in large part due to the number of variants between the numerous copies of the texts. The book title ‘Misquoting Jesus’ shows his purpose. Of course Ehrman knows that isnt actually true but that is the clear impression he has given to his readers, most of whom know little or nothing about the subject. The reason he doesnt say the same thing in his academic writings is because he knows other scholars would laugh at him, because they, unlike the readers of his popular books, also know it isnt true. I find it rather deceitful on his part.
Yes, and that would be correct. Most of the variations are minor, but some are not and a few are substantial and/or highly significant.
Garbage. Ehrman does know that to be true because it is and all critical textual scholars agree with him. What you say here is nonsense.
Total nonsense.
The two Bart Ehrman’s hypothesis, if you will, actually originate with the New Testament textual critic named Daniel Wallace. Wallace claims to have known Ehrman for over 30 years, including when Ehrman was a professing evangelical. Wallace and Ehrman have also debated no less than three times. They are both on the opposite ends of the spectrum concerning their personal beliefs, but both the real deal when it comes to scholarly textual criticism of the New Testament. So when Tim says he hears evangelicals making comments regarding the Two Bart’s and presses them for specifics, he is correct in demanding evidence for their claim. And, Tim is correct in being skeptical about said claim, when said evangelical cannot produce the goods to support their claim. These evangelicals, who ever they are, are simply parroting what Wallace said, but guilty of not knowing why or guilty of not citing their source in conversation with Tim. It does however, seem safe for one to conclude that none of Tim’s, evangelicals was Daniel Wallace. Because,Wallace clearly gives his reason, which if heard, is not easily dismissed regarding the two Bart Ehrman’s. Wallace also goes on to say he is of the opinion, with reason, that Ehrman has become increasingly “hyper skeptical ” regarding the ability to ascertain what the original new testament manuscripts said, because, of the “embarrassment of riches” of ancient and midevil new testament manuscripts available. From around the globe, from different times and different languages. If my memory is correct, 25000 new testament manuscripts seems to be the current availability of ancient and midevil manuscripts. Wallace also maintains, that even if there was not a single new testament manuscript to be had, that the new testament could be completely ascertained through the writings and citations of the ancient church fathers and historians.
Athiest, are not immune from arguments from authorities anymore than an evangelical. Tim is correct in calling out their bullshit.
However, it still doesn’t change the fact that the two Ehrmans hypothesis is the opinion, of a man who is worth his salt regarding new testament textual criticism, irrespective of his personal beliefs.
Bill Craig is not a New Testament scholar, rather, a Philospher, and therefore not equal to Bart regarding new testament textual critisism. Daniel Wallace is an equal to Bart, and therefore, one should at least consider why Wallace maintains this position concerning Ehrmans dual nature.
So what is this “reason” that he gives? Because it is pretty clear to me that this claim is total nonsense.
Tim,
The main reason I responded to this post was that you dismiss the duality of Bart based on “apologists” and “fundamentalists” assertion that he was contradictory, without them providing evidence of their claims. I agree on the face of it. However, I happen to know from where it came from, and Wallace is not an “apologist” or a “fundie”, but a scholar of equal to or superior to Ehrman. Their debates are freely available, I have watched them all and therefore a witness. Ehrman does squirm when pressed by Wallace. Wallace speaks of this, not as a “weak slur” , but rather as a matter of fact. We call that “calling the kettle black” or “calling a spade a spade” here in the states. Don’t take my word for it, listen to a scholar critiquing a scholar for yourself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRJUk4TvehQ
I was under the impression that Atheist or no, that you were a fact seeker. And I would think a New Testament Scholar would hold more weight in his assessment of another scholar than simply a fundi or apologist. Your non scholarly dismissal of dual Bart is as equally weak and prejudice as a non scholarly assertions that he is. If not more so.
You state in a previous post that you “strongly suggest you don’t keep perpetuating the “two Bart Ehrman argument-it doesn’t really hold up to hard scrutiny” However, hard scrutiny is hardly hard, by copy and pasting ” A common Criticism of Me” from Bart from 2002 as a hard scrutiny. Really? A scholar who critiques himself is evidence of hard scrutiny? Is that the New Atheists definition of peer review?
To simply answer your question regarding Bart’s proposed dual nature, it boils down to money. Scholarly books don’t sell, but popular books written by the “authority” of a scholar do sell.
Regardless of our opinions, the real question is, can we ascertain what the original new testament texts says? The answer is either yes or no, and it can’t be both. Scholarly Wallace and Scholarly Ehrman both agree that it can and it has.
Jarrod
Wallace teaches at the Dallas Theological Seminary, an institution that requires its faculty to reaffirm its “doctrinal statement” each year. That “doctrinal statement” can be found HERE and includes the “authority and inerrancy of Scripture” as one of its seven key tenets. So Wallace is a fundamentalist. Wallace is also something of a laughing stock in the field, given his involvement in the now notorious “first century Mark fragment” fiasco. And all he does in that interview you linked to is repeat the allegation with some vague reference to something Ehrman is supposed to have said in “scholarly literature” about the original texts of the NT. Sorry, but I don’t trust Wallace to be a reliable source on what Ehrman is supposed to have said. Unless you can actually produce some actual evidence of outright contradictions between what Ehrman says in his scholarly work and what he says in his popular work, you don’t have a case. The word of this discredited fundie isn’t going to cut it.
Hi Tim,
As a curious question, do you have a take on Luke Muehlhauser’s article on Common Sense Atheism: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=27? Strangely enough, Muehlhauser as an atheist even appears to have agreed with this “two Ehrmans hypothesis” Jarrod speaks of.
Now, I do disagree with several of your remarks about Wallace. However, please do not take this as some sort of animus that I have against you or Ehrman. I think you are a knowledgeable, smart, witty and intelligent fellow who deserves to be respected for striving to present history truthfully and accurately. Similarly, I think people should respect Ehrman as a top scholar working in his field.
However, my point is: You seem to placing too much emphasis on Wallace’s being a fundamentalist and the doctrinal statements of Dallas Theological Seminary, while neglecting the fact that Wallace is, nonetheless, a bona fide scholar with credentials from some of the leading universities in the world. YES, you are absolutely correct that his assertions about a supposed first-century fragment of Mark were pablum. However, Wallace is the founder and executive director of the Center for the Study of the New Testament Manuscripts, and his Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics is a standard work in the field of New Testament studies which is a textbook accepted by the majority of schools teaching the subject. I am afraid that using charged rhetoric by describing him as a “discredited fundie” and “laughing stock” is not going to cut it. Similarly, I could describe Ehrman as a militant apostate keen on doing anything he can to discredit Christianity. However, that is, of course, an absurd caricature lacking in real substance.
I didn’t say he wasn’t a genuine scholar, albeit a highly conservative one. I was responding to the objection that he somehow isn’t a fundamentalist Christian. He is. And I’m afraid I find the scholarship of people like Wallace difficult to take seriously for the same reason I feel that way about the Mythicists – both start with their conclusions and then try to find a way through the evidence that leads them back to that assumed end point. There are excellent Christian scholars out there but people like Wallace are not among them. And after the “first century Mark” fiasco, he is always going to be discredited, sorry.
Furthermore, it is interesting to learn how the first-century fragment of Mark controversy arose in the first place. Here is an excerpt from Christianity Today explaining the controversy:
“In late 2011, manuscript scholar Scott Carroll—then working for what would become the Museum of the Bible in Washington D.C.—tweeted the tantalizing announcement that the earliest-known manuscript of the New Testament was no longer the second-century John Rylands papyrus (P52). In early 2012, Daniel B. Wallace, senior research professor of New Testament at Dallas Theological Seminary, seemed to confirm Carroll’s statement. In a debate with Bart D. Ehrman, Wallace reported that a fragment of Mark’s gospel, dated to the first century, had been discovered.
“As unlikely as a first-century Gospel manuscript is, the fragment was allegedly dated by a world-class specialist. This preeminent authority was not an evangelical Christian, either. He had no apologetic motive for assigning the early date. The manuscript, Wallace claimed, was to be published later that year in a book from Brill, an academic publisher that has since begun publishing items in the Museum of the Bible collection. When pressed for more information, Wallace refrained from saying anything new. He later signed a non-disclosure agreement and was bound to silence until the Mark fragment was published.”
Wallace later wrote a professional apology:
“In my debate with Bart, I mentioned that I had it on good authority that this was definitely a first-century fragment of Mark. A representative for who I understood was the owner of FCM urged me to make the announcement at the debate, which they realized would make this go viral. However, the information I received and was assured to have been vetted was incorrect. It was my fault for being naïve enough to trust that the data I got was unquestionable, as it was presented to me. So, I must first apologize to Bart Ehrman, and to everyone else, for giving misleading information about this discovery. While I am sorry for publicly announcing inaccurate facts, at no time in the public statements (either in the debate or on my blogsite) did I knowingly do this. But I should have been more careful about trusting any sources without my personal verification, a lesson I have since learned.”
“Just prior to the debate, this representative discussed with me the discovery of FCM. It was my understanding that their group had purchased the papyrus; had I known otherwise, I never would have made the public announcement. I was urged—and authorized—to make the announcement at the debate. I was also told that a high-ranking papyrologist had confirmed that FCM was definitely a first-century manuscript. On that basis, I made the announcement.”
“Somewhere along the line, I learned that the world-class papyrologist who dated the fragment to the first century had already, prior to my debate with Ehrman, adjusted his views. He was not so certain about the date (perhaps it was early second century). I learned that the rep knew, two weeks prior to the debate, that the papyrologist had changed his views. But I was told none of this. Regrettably, even when I made the announcement in Chapel Hill, I was giving misinformation. Even more regrettable, I have not been able to reveal the papyrologist’s uncertainty until now.”
“Further, I did not know that FCM was dated to the second/third century until I saw Elijah Hixson’s blog. The reasons for my silence had to do exclusively with the fact that I signed a non-disclosure agreement. Journalists, authors, newspaper editors, and many, many others have asked for information about it. But I was not allowed to say anything. Some have accused me of being silent to protect my reputation; just the opposite is the case. I was silent because I gave my word to be, even if it would hurt my reputation.”
“One of the lessons my wife and I drilled into our four sons was that their integrity would be in question unless there were times when being honest hurt them. When they repeatedly told us they were telling the truth, but the consequences were always to their advantage, we couldn’t trust them. In short, integrity sometimes hurts. I am glad that this fragment has finally been published, so that I can get past the accusations and condemnations. To be sure, there is much to criticize me for, in particular that I did not personally verify the information I received about this manuscript before announcing it to the world. But the speculations about my character otherwise I would hope have been resolved.”
Fair enough. However, what do you mean by “always going to be discredited”?
I mean academic careers get severely damaged by things like that “first century Mark” bungle.
Okay. However, if that is what you mean, nobody here is doubting that.
Is it really that shocking to people that Ehrman would adjust his language for his audience, speaking differently to layman than he would to fellow academics? I had thought any 100 level public speaking course taught half competently would make it clear why adjusting your presentation to fit the level of knowledge your your audience possesses is just common sense.
If you read any of Ehrman’s popular books, you are being given the message that the New Testament as we have it today, including the actions and teaching of Jesus, is very unreliable. Yet in his academic work he has agreed that the text as we have it today is basically the same as the original manuscripts.
That is nonsense. What he says in both types of work is exactly the same. Please stop repeating this fundamentalist Christian apologist lie.
Tim
The two Bart Ehrman’s claim sounds incisive. I’ve heard Daniel Wallace repeat this (Wallace has a habit of repeating unsubstantiated claims)
It’s have your cake and eat it too day: Apologists can claim to defend scholarship and trash Ehrman at the same time. I think this is the same game mythicists play.
Carrier, for example, managed to convince someone (Thompson?) that Ehrman used hostile language against him and I’m pretty sure he claimed Ehrman threatened him.
Richard Carrier lives in a fantasy world centred on Richard Carrier, where he reigns as a supreme academic intellect and anyone who disagrees with him is futilely plotting against him. The reality is, no-one notices he exists.
Yes, I can not stop laughing at his belief that Ehrman threatened him.
Carrier’s mom said he was very smart!
I don’t know Mr. O’Neill but I will say that anyone who knows anything at all about Bart Ehrman knows that he is a historical revisionist of the Dan Brown sort. I would put little to no faith, pun intended, in anything he writes.
That’s the stupidest comment I’ve read all week.
And the week is young.
And it began with the boneheaded comments by “ImSkeptical” over on the “Did Jesus Exist?” comment thread. So for this guy’s comment to out-dumb that stuff is quite a feat.
I wish you would engage in the argument rather than ad hominem. However, I see from some of the other posts that what you have is the liberal, re-gurgitated and discredited Jesus Seminar approach. I notice you did not refute my thesis but instead took to throwing bombs.
Yes, perhaps I should spend my time writing 10-15,000 word critical analysis. Oh, hang on …
Ummm, no. I reject the conclusions of the liberal Christian “Jesus Seminar”. But it seems you mistake all mainstream critical analysis of the NT in its context for “the Jesus Seminar approach”.
I’m afraid I didn’t notice any “thesis”. What exactly would that be? Spit it out.
The Jesus Seminar is a silly organisation which wishes to shoehorn Jesus into their own expectations, rather than study who the historical Jesus ‘really’ was.
Are the Jewish scholars like Geza Vermes who place Jesus’s ministry within the context of Apocalyptic Judaism in first century Palestine considered part of the Jesus seminar? I had thought Tim leaned towards Jesus the Jew style analysis when it comes to understanding the historical Jesus.
Vermes was not part of the Jesus Seminar and the key members of it were/are well known for claiming that the historical Jesus was wholly “noneschatological” and arguing apocalyptic elements in the NT texts are due to later interpretations of Jesus’ teaching and was not original to him. Scholars outside the Seminar – especially Vermes, Fredriksen, Sanders, Allison and Ehrman – have rejected this and continue to see Jesus as an apocalyptic prophet. On the whole, that view has tended to prevail among critical scholars over the Jesus Seminar’s alternative of Jesus as a social reforming sage. I’m very much with Vermes et. al. on this.
I should probably clarify, Tim, that was a (poor) rhetorical question pointing out that you tend to find the historical Jesus analysis that places him within the context of Apocalyptic Judaism in first century Palestine more convincing than the proto-anarchocommunist (my words, not theirs) reformer that the Jesus Seminar types tend towards. I suppose I’m glad I didn’t misrepresent what type of historical Jesus analysis you find most convincing, although I’m not too glad about accidentally disliking Reginald’s post lamenting the Jesus Seminar and being unable able to fix that by hitting the like button.
“I will say that anyone who knows anything at all about Bart Ehrman knows that he is a historical revisionist of the Dan Brown sort. I would put little to no faith, pun intended, in anything he writes.”, you sure you’re not talking about the notorious Carrier?
I have only read the first chapter at this stage. Does he mention the Sassanids at all?
The late empire adopted elaborate court rituals that are often described as Sassanid in origin and were quite different from the court style of the early empire. The Sassanid empire was militantly Zoroastrian and scored several notable victories against the empire during the Crisis of the Third Century. I am not aware of any work on whether the existence of a monotheist empire on the eastern frontier had any influence in the adoption of Christianity but it strikes me as a possibility that merits investigation.
Are you gonna get to the Ascension of Isaiah soon? Or review the latest of one of Carrier’s badly-written pieces of history-revisionism?
The “Ascension of Isaiah” article is on the way. But the next article in my Jesus Mythicism series is on the “No Contemporary References to Jesus” argument, because that is far more common among online Mythers.
What’s the ascension of Isaiah?
It’s an early Christian text describing a vision Isaiah sees of Jesus descending down through the celestial spheres to be incarnated and then ascending into heaven again after his resurrection. Carrier tries to claim it supports his idea that Jesus was originally conceived as having been crucified etc in the heavens and not on earth. It doesn’t.
On the contrary, it assumes Jesus actually appeared on earth. Reminds me of those who like to point out that some gnostics thought Jesus was an apparition or phantom, and think that supports the notion that he didn’t exist on earth, on the contrary.
Standard Carrier nonsense.
I’m very much looking forward to the Ascension of Isaiah post. (Perhaps if space allows you could also comment on the debate between Carrier and Thom Stark about the Targum of Jonathan – I mentioned that on Bart Ehrman’s blog recently. Though I can imagine that covering both texts in one post would make it a bit long.)
From experience I don’t trust Carrier at all – which is why I’m always keen to learn about what mainstream scholars are saying about these relatively-lesser-known ancient Jewish and Christian texts that he likes to deploy in argument. Carrier seems like more of a polemicist than an objective scholar. (And I’m firmly convinced that mythicism is bunk.)
The Myther argument that there are no contemporary references to Jesus is probably the most widely used one that I have seen. I have linked to your two blog articles on the references to Jesus in Tacitus and Josephus for atheists to see. I had one atheist give me links to Richard Carrier and Aaron Ra on the historicity of Jesus. While I share your disdain for Carrier, I had to look up Aaron Ra and found out that he’s the former President of the Atheist Alliance of America as well as a Myther. I don’t know if Mr. Ra is the dishonest narcissist that Carrier is but I wondering if I am detecting a serious egotism problem in the Myther community.
Aron Ra is profoundly dishonest when it comes to history, the bible, and theology. Science videos aren’t bad though. He’s an anti-theist preacher to the core
I will start watching his videos. Is there anything that you can recommend to watch where I can see his dishonesty for myself? For what it’s worth, I am getting to the point where I cannot stand these anti-theist crusaders. It seems that some of them will use any argument and any tactic to discredit an opponent or opposing view no matter how low and dirty they have to sink.
Aron Ra’s “Jesus never existed” series on his channel is a good example of his sophistry
Not to mention he uses fast-food scholarship and biased sources when he tries to debunk the bible. As for his theology, this is basically the gist of his rhetoric, “God doesn’t exist because there is no evidence. Nothing counts as evidence because there is no God”
Hello, Tim. Great review.
Are you under the impression that Christianity has nothing original in it, that it’s all “borrowed” from earlier pagan myths? I myself think that Christianity might have borrowed heavily from other religions/cultures, but I doubt that ever single thing about Christianity is plagiarized. That would cause quite a stir I would think.
I happen to like the work of people like Sir James G. Frazer in “The Golden Bough,” though some dismiss him as a crank. What do you think?
To the best of my knowledge, Frazer was a serious scholar and no crank, but most scholars of comparative mythology today (with the exception of Tryggve Mettinger) have abandoned the idea of a dying and rising god. I personally think there ‘are’ examples of such a deity, like Baal, Attis, Inanna etc, but parallels to Jesus’ resurrection can be found in Isaiah 53, so Jews would have hardly had to have stolen their ideas from Pagans. That and the fact that 2nd temple Jews would ‘never’ have seen Baal worship and Babylonian paganism in a positive light.
Interesting.
Speaking of Isaiah 53, what do you think of this article?
https://apikoris.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/isaiah-53.html
I’m not necessarily saying it ‘was’ a messianic prophecy, only that the earliest Christians may have interpreted it as such, just as Isaiah 7:14 is not a messianic prophecy, but was explicitly quoted as being such in Matthew 1:23
Thanks for this article Tim. I’ve not read the book yet, but its on my list to get.
Starting from the position of not having read it, I would suggest two things. The first is that the role of past and reported miracles is probably not as important as this implies. The reason is not that people didn’t believe in miracles, they did, but rather that miracle claims were every day occurences. Christians didn’t make claims in a vacuum of such claims, rather they were one voice among many. So, for these to be persuasive, then they would have had to either be personally experienced, or be additive to other factors. There may have been some personal experience, but my sense is that other factors were more important.
This brings us to my second point, which is that I think the ethical/moral behaviour is more important. To return to Stark, he points out the importance of the high honour and position of women (saving girls from infanticide, keeping sexual purity, talking language of mutual submission in the family), was important. Women are the guardians of family religion, and I think the position Christianity gave to women compared to other situations, is crucial and overlooked. Adding to this, Stark again focuses on the impact of 2 major plagues that Christians faced with care and compassion (lowering their death rates and the death rates of those neighbours they cared for) in contrast to the lack of compassion shown by others, was significant iwth mathematical outcomes.
I disagree with some of Stark’s concept but think he’s right that these two points were major contributors to the rise of Christianity. It wasn’t the preaching and proclamation of who Jesus was, it was the compassion and honouring of the sick and of women that made massive differences.
Honestly all the atheists calling you a crypto christian should read this thread.
Great work as always, Tim. Two questions, the second being a follow up to the first, that I hope are relevant given this piece on touches on bad history regarding Constantine’s conversion, particularly the protestant notion that it ‘corrupted the church’. Do you have any idea what years we have the earliest written sources from Christians putting forward these ideas about Constantine’s conversion corrupting the church? Given your mention papal reservations about caesaropapism and Bernard of Clairvaux and St Francis expressing some reservations about Constantine’s impact on the faith, while Eastern/Oriental Orthodox revere him as a Saint, did the schism of 1054 lay the groundwork for these myths about Augustine to become mainstream? Should probably note since my writing can be quite muddled that I’m not asking whether these differing views on Constantine in anyway caused the 1054 schism, but what impact (if any) that schism had on more negative views of Constantine developing in territories that were predominantly Western Catholic.
There was a debate last night about Jesus’ existence with one of Carrier’s loyal minions (Godless Engineer) https://youtu.be/hVxmdNXRqJw You should go on The Non Sequiter Show sometime
Can we keep the comments on topic please.
Thanks Tim, a very interesting review.
For those criticising Ehrman, can I just gently say that I teach New Testament Studies at A-level. Only this week I was highly recommending Ehrman to my students as an example of a contemporary scholar whose understanding of the Bible in both historical and literary ways was second to none currently active, and that they should read his work. That is from a practising Christian and former agnostic. It is recommendation based not on his religious views but on the quality of his work.
It is perhaps indicative of the quality of his work that the criticism of it tends to be ad hominem rather than substantive.
I’m an evangelical flock and disagreed on Ehrman in many occassion, but i actually agree with almost all of his thesis on this one.
His thesis on Constantine is actually rock-solid, though i disagreed with my Protestant brethren for quite long time before this.
His idea is not actually ‘new’, but i’ll give credit to him when he deserved it.
Anyway, good review. I was thinking for doing one, but since his idea is not quite ‘new’, i’d decline for now
On the topic of Hypatia, reading the book it seemed to me that the reason he brought it up and didn’t entirely dismiss it as purely political, was that he was explaining that while it may not have been a pure hatred of pagans, there may still have been pagan/christian animus going on there. The person she was seen as siding with had been accused of being a pagan as a part of the debate, and it may not be a coincidence that it was one of his prominent pagan associates who was killed shortly thereafter.
I think the impression that I got from Erhmans’ book is that while she was not attacked FOR being pagan, being pagan may have been why she was chosen from all of the options.
Yes, that does seem to be why it’s in the book, but that reasoning isn’t really sustained by the information he gives. It is impossible to say if her paganism and pagan/Christian animus wasn’t a factor at all, but there is very little evidence – other than, as you say, Orestes being called a “pagan” as a slur – to sustain the idea that it was a major element in what seems to have been a political squabble.
Hi there.
Quick question: I’ve heard some mythicists claim that Bart Ehrman has changed his mind on a key part about the historical Jesus.
The mythicist claim is that Ehrman now believes that the original early Christians indeed believed in a celestial Jesus and that a man came along a little later who said he was Jesus and people believed him, kind of like if a guy showed up and said he was Satan to people that believed in Satan already.
I tried looking for works of Ehrman’s to back up this claim but I unsurprisingly haven’t found much yet except for this Richard Carrier article which is kind of vague on the subject. https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/6923
What do you think?
It probably won’t surprise you to learn that Carrier misrepresents what Ehrman says. Carrier claims:
“Ehrman has now completely reversed a position he took against me in Did Jesus Exist (as is well known, I published a detailed critique of that awful book). He now admits that from the very earliest recorded history, indeed even earlier than that, even possibly their very first year, Christians regarded Jesus as a pre-existent divine being. That this was not a later development first encountered in the Gospel of John, for example.”
But Ehrman has not changed his position on the celestial pre-existence of Jesus, just on the idea that this pre-existent being was in some sense “divine”. Since Ehrman has always been aware of the references in the Pauline texts to Jesus existing in heaven before humbling himself to become a man, he has always considered Paul to have believed in Jesus as a pre-existent, heavenly being – that was a fairly common Jewish belief after all. But in writing How Jesus Became God he focused more closely on how Paul saw that pre-existence and concluded that Paul always considered Jesus to be “divine”, though subordinate to God.
Personally, I don’t quite agree and think “divine” is not a useful way to describe Paul’s pre-existent Jesus. “Celestial”, certainly, or maybe “angelic” would be a better word. Paul also thinks that the post-Resurrection Jesus was exalted to a higher status than he had held before, second only to God himself. Again, I don’t think “divine” is a useful word to describe this, as it is too close to the orthodox Christian Trinitarian conception of Jesus as co-equal “second person of the Trinity”, which is not what Ehrman is depicting in his interpretation of Paul.
So why Carrier is crowing over Ehrman talking about a pre-existent Jesus as though this is some kind of new idea for Ehrman and some kind of concession to Mythicism is a mystery. Either he didn’t understand Ehrman’s previous writing on this issue or he hasn’t read it. Or he’s just deliberately misrepresenting things because he hates Ehrman so much. Whatever it is, he’s dead wrong.
And a pre-existent heavenly Jesus doesn’t boost Mythicism anyway, given that several other things in Judaism in this period were thought to have existed in heaven before they came into being on earth – namely the Torah and the Temple. The point here is they came into being on earth after their heavenly prefigurement. As did Jesus. The key element in the term “pre-existence” is the “pre-” prefix.
Regardless,of Wallace’s egg on his face, it’s not difficult to ascertain your biases, based on the fact, that you used Ehrman as the “serious critic” of Ehrman. That’s not the peer reviewed process.
What are my “biases”? You’ve provided no actual evidence of this alleged contradiction between Ehrman’s scholarly and popular work, just the clearly biased and deeply uncredible Wallace claiming it exists. And he gives no evidence of it either. I quoted Ehrman simply because I wanted to present his perspective on this claim in his own words. And what the hell has “peer review” got to do with this? Unless you actually produce some real evidence for this claim, further comments on this topic are going straight to the trash.
Tim, you biased-towards-history bastard! 🙂
Tim,
Calling someone a “discredited fundie” is proof enough to me that you are biased. It is self evident. It typically means you’ve got nothing left but to attack the man. I actually thought you were a bit more sophisticated than,…… Bart Ehrman, good, Dan Wallace, bad.
I am willing to bet that you didn’t even know of Dan Wallace until I brought him up to you or at the very least knew nothing about this earth shaking scandal concerning Mark until I mentioned his name. OMG! But I digress.
Bart Ehrman, at times, is self evidently a confused man, and it doesn’t take a scholar to comprehend this. One only needs to listen to him speak in his own words to realize that he contradicts himself and puts forth incoherent assertions . Here is a proof.
Quotes from his debate with Wallace in 2012. I will post the link at the end.
Starting at minute 12:40…
“We don’t have the original copy that Mark made. We don’t have the first copy” We don’t have copies of the copy. We don’t have copies of the copies of the copies of the copies of the copies of the copies. The earliest copies we have of Mark dates from around the year 200. Probably about 130 years after the original. That’s the first copy we have. 130 years after the original.”
I don’t need to go further. This is enough to prove a contradiction. In reality the first two sentences are proof enough of incoherency…………
“we don’t have the original copy that Mark made.” this is an affirmative claim by a scholar, and by itself, is perfectly fine given that fact that all spectrums of NT scholars agree with this. However, to follow it up with “we don’t have the first copy.” is a statement that cannot logically or mathematically follow his first assertion. For if one affirms that one does not have the original, then no one can not logically deduce what number copy a copy happens to be.
It is self evidently impossible. It is incoherent.
Bart affirms that there was an original. But he also makes an affirmation that the original is lost. Wallace agrees, and so does every single NT scholar. That’s the whole, entire, complete, cause for textual criticism in the first place. To study copies of manuscripts to try and ascertain what the original says.
And to repeat, there is a logical problem with his assertions concerning copies of copies. If one does not have the original, then it is impossible to ascertain how far removed that particular copy really is.
Ehrman affirms that the copy of Mark is from about 200 AD, and about 130 years from the original. But if no one has the original, then Ehrman can not prove or disprove that that particular copy of Mark was or was not a first generation copy. No one can! And history knows that manuscipts can and do last more than 130 years. The great Isaiah scroll at Qumran is over 2000 years old.
Now I don’t think it too difficult, that , if Ehrman does not start on solid ground from the outset of his talk, then he can’t finish on solid ground either. The weirdness in all this is, is Ehrman says in the 2012 debate that” we cant get back to the origionals”. Well what the hell has he been doing for the last 30 years of his life???? Talk about exercising futility! However, Wallace still maintains that scholarly Bart has said, in other circles and in print, that we can in fact get back to the origionals. Further, Wallace maintains that Ehrman has admitted that textual variants do not even sniff of undermining cardinal Christian doctrines.
We either can or can’t get back to the origional, but in my opinion, there is plenty of evidence that we can. Namely 25000 ancient and midevil manuscripts that litter the globe, and the scholarship behind it.
My opinion, and the opinion of the “discredited fundie” for the “dual bart hypothesis” is money. Scholarship doesn’t sell. Controversies do. Regardless, Bart clearly contradicts himself inside of two sentences. Imagine what he can do with 20 books?!
But I don’t expect you to take this as a “proof” or “evidence” because in my experience, Atheist just blanketly deny, deny, deny when it doesn’t fit their world view. They tend to live in a world were the door only swings one way.
Jarrod
PS. I am not in need of a response, I afforded you with a proof of Dr. Ehrmans incoherency. Take it or leave it. You have written enough for me to ascertain who you are as a person. I originally thought different.
As I’ve explained, I don’t take people who have hard ideological positions seriously as scholars. Wallace has to annually reaffirm a faith position that the Bible is “inerrant”. That alone puts him squarely in the category of scholars who are too tainted by faith-based orthodoxy to be trusted to be objective, sorry. As for your increasingly strange attempts at arguing against Ehrman, you still haven’t posted anything that shows any actual contradiction between his scholarly and popular works. Now you’re off on another wild goose chase trying to argue he is somehow “confused”. What he is obviously arguing in that exchange is that if there is a gap of a whole 130 years between the likely date of composition of gMark and the date of the earliest surviving copy, the chances that the earliest surviving copy just happens to be the second copy ever made in the history of the text are so remote as to be vanishingly small. I’m sure he’s well aware that it is merely possible this is what happened, but it is wildly unlikely. Unless of course you actually have some evidence that this is, indeed, what happened.
So what he is saying is perfectly reasonable and not “confused” at all. The only thing that seems “confused” here are your increasingly erratic attempts at smearing Ehrman. Disagree with him if you like, but he is a careful and respected scholar.
This is a really weird, patronising and wrong claim. The first-century Mark situation was recently covered extensively on Bart Ehrman’s blog. Anyone who follows current developments in early Christian history is likely to be aware of it. It’s not an obscure incident.
I don’t know much of Wallace’s scholarly work, but it was definitely irresponsible to announce during a public debate that a first-century fragment of Mark had been found, when he was basing this only on third-hand hearsay. Of course, we all make mistakes.
Are you really saying that you think a manuscript which post-dates the original by 130 years is likely to be a first-generation copy of the original?
Your comment makes no sense. As I understand it, textual critics have a fairly good idea, for the most part, of what the originals of the NT said. But it’s also true that there are lots of textual variants, that there is uncertainty about some (not all!) of the variants, and that that some (not all!) of the variants really matter for understanding the text. There’s no contradiction involved in making both of these points.
David,
Concerning your last two paragraphs…..
You write….
“Are you really saying that you think a manuscript which post-dates the original by 130 years is likely to be a first-generation copy of the original?”
I am saying that if you don’t have an original, then you cannot even begin to assert, what generation copy you have. Isn’t that a self evident deduction? Do you not think a manuscript can last 130 years? The Great Isaiah is over two thousand years old, and Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus are some 1500 to 1600 years old. And according to Bart Ehrmans own words, in which I posted the video, and where to begin to watch, as evidence, he says ” we don’t have copies of copies of copies of copies of copies”. So to reiterate, if one does not have the original, as Bart asserts in the video and elsewhere, then one cannot determine the number value of the descending copy that was born out of the original. Unless you have discovered a way to suspend the laws of logic and mathematics.
Concerning your last paragraph……
You write….
“Your comment makes no sense. As I understand it, textual critics have a fairly good idea, for the most part, of what the originals of the NT said. But it’s also true that there are lots of textual variants, that there is uncertainty about some (not all!) of the variants, and that that some (not all!) of the variants really matter for understanding the text. There’s no contradiction involved in making both of these points.”
I’m sorry my friend, I quoted Bart Ehrman verbatim, and posted the video and where to start to confirm that I transmitted his words faithfully. The confusion, I think, is do in part to your misreading what I wrote, and not listening to Ehrmans own words. It is Ehrman comments that don’t make sense. He said them, I just quoted them.
If you still seem confused, please, be kind, reference what it is specifically and succinctly, and I will do my best to clarify what it is that is causing you confusion. But the fact is, is that Ehrman asserts that “we cant get back to the originals” . And that’s why I said, “what the hell has he been doing for 30 years?”
I’m happy to assume that Ehrman said those words; I’m not going to watch an entire 2-hour-long debate to check. (I personally dislike audio formats and wish that there were transcripts of these debates – I find it much easier to assimilate information in writing.)
But what he said is perfectly correct. We can’t get back to the originals. It’s also true that, for the most part, textual critics have a pretty good idea what the originals said. But there are nonetheless a lot of textual variants. Many of them are trivial, but some of them are important.
(And the Bibles people have been reading for the last several centuries obviously contain a lot of material that wasn’t in the originals – many English Bibles contain the woman taken in adultery and the Johannine Comma, even though virtually all textual critics agree that these are not original. If the Bible were really the Word of God, and God wanted people to read it, one would think he would have bothered to ensure that it was transmitted accurately to future generations.)
Your response in my opinion is nothing more than deflective and dismissive. You asked a question, and I gave a simple coherent answer. Getting back to an original via textual criticism, is cavernously different than making a claim about how far down the line a copy is when there is no original too be had.
Actually, the Bible is NOT the Word of God, and the Gospel of John affirms this, but given it’s late date because of its theological development, says you, why would believe it any way. Try and wrap your head around that statement. Lol
I think this discussion has reached its natural end. No more please gentlemen.
Hello Tim! Could you please offer your take on RationalityRules’ video which tries to counter the claim that Western civilisation is founded on Judaeo-Christian values*? I am able to accept that perhaps religious fundamentalists have exaggerated such impacts on Western society. However, towards the end of the video, RationalityRules strangely claims that the emergence of Western civilisation was actually in direct opposition to Judaeo-Christian values. Is this another example of New Atheist pseudo-history? Furthermore, am I correct in saying that he seems to be cherry-picking the evidence?
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd6FgYbMffk
This is off topic. There is a “Contact the Author” link for requests like this. Please don’t use the comments section.
Tim
Thanks for this excellent article and blog generally. You are a great writer and thinker.
I probably learned more about the early church from Ehrman than any other historian and I am very grateful for his work.
I think Ehrman’s analysis on the exclusivity of Christianity does make sense. And although Judaism would have the same exclusivity it is not a religion that evangelizes so that might explain the difference.
I also found his comment about miracle stories being convincing very interesting. I would say that miracles are really the blessing and the curse of Christianity. It is the reason many mock the belief even as recorded in Acts 26 when Festus thought Paul lost his mind talking about Christ rising from the dead.
But if you ask a nonbeliever what would make them believe, perhaps the most common answer is… a miracle. I am a Christian but there is no doubt a miracle would help solidify whatever faith I have. So miracles seem to have this odd place as being both the most irrational and most rational reason to believe at the same time!
It is also interesting that I think the main issue I have with Ehrman is on miracles. He claims his view that miracles are impossible is historical claim. But I have listened to his lectures and understand the rules he uses for historical analysis. And they are not the rules he uses to rule out miracles from being possible. (he claims he doesn’t rule them out but well he seems less than clear on that. )
It seems clear to me he rejects miracles for philosophical reasons. I certainly accept that can happen and admit there are reasonable philosophical grounds to reject religion. But I wish he would just admit that it is for philosophical reasons. All of his arguments are philosophical and have nothing to do with the criteria he uses for analyzing historical claims. I did a blog about here:
https://trueandreasonable.co/2014/05/29/ehrman-and-the-historicity-of-miracles/
Sadly it is on the things we disagree about that I do blogs. I don’t mean to be overly negative about Ehrman, even though the blog may come off that way.
Anyway thanks for all the great work on this site. Its a great resource.
My only comment would be to ask you if you think there is any real difference between Ehrman’s (and my) approach to the miracles reported in early Christian sources and your approach to the miracles reported in many non-Christian texts in the same period. I suspect there isn’t. If not, surely Ehrman’s attitude is not so unreasonable.
I certainly do not claim that all reasonable people must accept miracles. But I do think there is a difference in saying you reject them for philosophical, religious, or historical reasons.
So lets say we have some claimed miracle in some ancient text. You might reject it for philosophical reasons – perhaps something along the lines of Hume or whatever (for purposes of argument I concede there are plenty of good philosophical reasons to reject miracles.) I as a Christian wouldn’t reject it on philosophical reasons but perhaps on Religious reasoning like – hey I think there is only one God and he does not perform miracles for Muhammed. So I don’t think Muhamad split the moon or whatever.
But then completely seperate from these religious or philosophical reasons there very well may be a historical analysis of the claimed event. Here are the historical criteria Ehrman offers in the class I watched on a dvd (yep it was a while ago):
1) Multiple sources
Preferably Independent sources
2) Non biased sources
3) Contextual credibility
4) Close in time to the events
5) No contradictions/internally consistent
So we can look at the historical criteria and that may help decide whether the historical evidence for a miracle claim is weak or strong based on this criteria.
Now sure I think a reasonable person can say well I think the historical evidence is strong, but nevertheless there are such good philosophical and/or other religious reasons to reject this claimed miracle I still do not believe it happened. I think that reasoning is perfectly legitimate. But if you are going to claim you a rejecting a miracle *for historical reasons* then use the same historical criteria you would use for any other claim.
I think it is important to keep this seperate. Some miracle claims stand up better under historical analysis than others.
OKay. I think your beef is rather more with Ehrman than with me, but I also think it’s splitting hairs to make much distinction between “philosophical” and “historical” reasons for not accepting miracles. I think that miracles are so vanishingly unlikely that they will always fail the test of parsimony. I’ll leave it up to you to decide if that is a “philosophical” or a “historical” call.
I think my beef is with one of Ehrman’s views. I really do like Ehrman otherwise. I don’t know if you hold the same view he does. I tend to think you don’t because you have a whole website that is drawing a similar distinction. That is you seem to be clear you are an atheist but you don’t want your views about atheism to bias your views on historical evidence.
As a Christian I want the same thing. I don’t want my Christian views to taint my historical analysis. Is such a project even theoretically possible? Ehrman clearly emphasized it was. I remember listening to Ehrman set forth his criteria for historical analysis (see the numbered items listed above) and I enthusiastically thought yes that is a reasonably objective approach to history lets see where those criteria take us!
But then when it came to miracles he ignored all the criteria and gave a philosophical explanation to ignore the possibility that miracles happened, all the while claiming it was history not philosophy. I think his philosophy was bad but that is not my point. The point was I thought we developed common ground in the criteria and then he abandoned them.
Is this important? I tend to think it is very important to not confuse historical, religious, scientific or philosophical views with each other. We use different tools, methods and assumptions in each case.
Let’s say a Muslim tells me he thinks there is historical evidence that Muhamad miraculously split the moon. And I said actually “as a historian” I can’t accept that, and here is why: There is only one God and that is the Christian God and the Christian God is not in the business of performing miracles for Muhamad. Therefore, “as a historian” I can not believe that account on historical grounds.
Now the actual reasoning may be one that many Christians would accept. But I hope we would all agree that it wasn’t a historical analysis. It is a religious analysis and I think claiming that was doing history is wrong. If I was a respected historian such a claim could mislead people to think historical analysis suggests that that claim is weak, when in fact my reasoning had nothing to do with historical analysis. Isn’t that the sort of thing we want to avoid?
That is why I have a beef with claiming a philosophical view is the result of historical analysis when it is not.
Is parsimony a legitimate historical criteria? I think it can play role in reasoning generally but I have also seen what I consider the less parsimonious views justified on the basis of parsimony. Parsimony and how parsimony concerns should work in our reasoning is not so clear cut as the other historical criteria he mentioned. So if he would have listed “parsimony” as one of the criteria I would have mentally flagged that and said ok lets see exactly how he is using that criteria and whether I think this criteria is really letting his philosophy influence his thoughts on this matter.
I’m not saying I would discount it out of hand but yes I think discussions about whether a claim is supported by parsimony are more often than not philosophical. So I would withhold judgment on that until I see it’s use in action.
As for whether the possibility that a miracle happened is “vanishingly small,” I think reasonable people can hold that view. And I think we can come to that view by using historical analysis or we can come to that view by philosophical analysis. But if you say you came to the view that the chance a particular miracle event actually occurred is vanishingly small *based on a historical analysis*, well I would like to see some actual historical analysis. And if you say we do historical analysis by considering these 5 criteria then that means I would like to see you applying those 5 criteria.
I think you would agree that applying the historical criteria listed will lead to different results for different miracle claims. This I think should lead us to say that different miracle claims from a historical perspective have varying degrees of weight. (Even if from a philosophical or religious perspective we completely discount the possibility they occurred.)
I think it is perfectly legitimate to say for philosophical reasons I reject the possibility that a miracle happened and then continue my historical analysis based on that view. And indeed, we see that with the dating of certain Gospels as being after 70 AD due to the Jewish revolt ending at that time. The analysis is transparent.
The “christian god” is the exact same deity that the Muslims venerate.
I don’t think that Ehrman rules out miracles a priori on philosophical grounds. Rather, as far as I understand it (though I might be misunderstanding), his argument is simply that a historian qua historian cannot conclude that the historical evidence establishes that a miracle occurred. This is because, given any kind of evidence for a miracle (contemporary eyewitness reports, etc), another explanation will always by definition be more likely than that a miracle occurred.
In principle, I’m not sure I agree with that position. Suppose that in 2005 Jesus had been seen by thousands of eyewitnesses, and captured on international television footage, descending from heaven in a blaze of glory and landing in the middle of Times Square. Suppose that a team of scientists carbon-dated his flesh and clothing to the first century AD, and that he was interviewed by linguists who concluded that he spoke perfect first-century Aramaic. Suppose that he resurrected 50 random people from the local morgue, all of whom had been declared dead on different occasions by different doctors and all of whom had death certificates and autopsy reports. Suppose that post-resurrection they all underwent medical examinations (again by different, independent doctors) who confirmed that they were alive, and that their DNA was tested to confirm their identities. For a final flourish, suppose that Jesus turned a tank of water into wine, and that this was broadcast live on TV, witnessed by an audience of thousands, and independently confirmed by spectrographic analysis of the liquid before and after. Suppose that historians had available to them all of the relevant scientific reports, notes and observations, as well as the TV footage and the reports of thousands of eyewitnesses. And (to bolster the evidence further) suppose that many of the observers involved were non-Christians with no particular predisposition to Christian beliefs. If that happened, I would conclude that it was at least reasonably plausible on the historical evidence that a miracle had occurred; the alternative would be a conspiracy so vast and unlikely that it could not be regarded as a satisfactory alternative. (Of course it wouldn’t prove that Christianity was true; it could be the work of highly advanced aliens, or of some other entity masquerading as the Christian God.)
But in practical terms, I agree with Ehrman. As regards every claimed miracle of which I’m aware, the evidence is far too weak to conclude that it actually occurred. This is very much true for the miracles in the Gospels. I don’t see how any sensible person could conclude that the Gospels – four accounts whose date, authorship, accuracy, and relationship to one another are significantly disputed – constitute adequate historical evidence to conclude that Jesus performed miracles. People are of course free to believe that Jesus did perform miracles, and it’s possible that he did; but that is a theological belief and not a historical one.
In my view it’s the difference between philosophical naturalism and methodological naturalism. Historical research uses the latter. While being a 7 on the scale of Dawkins I’d call those reasons philosophical. Herman Philipse wrote extensively about them in his God in the Age of Science. Hence
“Some miracle claims stand up better under historical analysis than others.”
doesn’t make any sense to me Historical analysis can’t go any further than “people believed that a miracle happened”.
Thank you Frank I may look up Herman Philipse.
You say:
“‘Some miracle claims stand up better under historical analysis than others.’
doesn’t make any sense to me Historical analysis can’t go any further than ‘people believed that a miracle happened’.”
Consider this:
1) Jesus lived on a certain date before he was crucified.
2) Jesus died on the day he was crucified.
3) Jesus lived on some date after the day he was crucified.
It seems to me that Historians can and do address claim 1 and 2. It would seem that the same historical analysis can be used to analyze the third claim.
Now I do agree that it wouldn’t be “historical analysis” to say since historical analysis suggests claims 1,2, and 3 are true, *therefore it must be a miracle.* I mean it could be that despite our best historical analysis we got it wrong (ie other reasons seem to trump the historical evidence). Or it might not be a miracle it could also be something science hasn’t figured out yet etc or even demons or magic whatever. Sorting that out is not the historian’s trade, I agree.
Perhaps that is all he is trying to say but if that is the case it would have been nice for him to evaluate claims involving natural facts that if true tend at least to suggest a miracle happened. Such as the combination of 1-3 above being true. So he could say “I can’t say it was a miracle or not but historical analysis suggests 1, 2 and 3 are all true.”
I do think we can apply historical analysis to all three claims. It seems odd to say if we apply historical analysis to 1 and 2, and find they meet historical scrutiny, then suddenly we can’t apply it to 3. Or if we find that 1 and 3 pass historical muster suddenly we can’t apply historical analysis to 2.
If you have philosophical or religious misgivings (as I would expect most Muslims do) for accepting all three then you can reject 2 or 3 on those grounds. But if religion or philosophy is what leads you to reject 2 or 3 then you shouldn’t say it is historical analysis.
“It would seem that the same historical analysis can be used to analyze the third claim.”
Only if you
1) either enormously alter natural sciences, which postulate that the second and the third claim contradict each other. In that case the event ceases to be a miracle;
2) or presume a miracle, ie what you want to conclude.
Otherwise that historical analysis makes as much sense as the annual phycisist who uses the Gospels and astronomy to calculate the exact year that Jesus was born: exactly zilch.
The mistake you make is assuming that historical research stands on its own and can neglect other branches of science at will. That assumption is wrong. The irony is that you are guilty of a form of reductionism, which is often heavily criticized by certain believers.
A similar example is the historical analysis of the claim that Aristoteles used mirror to set Roman ships on fire. No matter how strong an eventual positive conclusion, first you’ll have to show experimentally that it’s possible.
Historical analysis uses methodological naturalism and hence remains silent on miracles, which by any definition demand supernatural explanations. You cannot have it both ways. What you are trying to do is theology hidden under a scientific cloak. Now I don’t have anything against theology – I’m OK with for instance theistic evolution as well – but I do have a lot against using methodological naturalism as a support for theistic claims. To me using historical analysis to conclude whether the Resurrection happened (or not) is the same as using to argue against Evolution Theory: pseudoscience, ie pseudohistory,
“claims involving natural facts that if true tend at least to suggest a miracle happened”
Like creationist ones.
This idea of yours is incoherent. To make it worse for you: theists never use this pseudomethod to present the example of superconductivity at relatively high temperatures as an example of supernatural intervention. – a phenomen that’s well recorded and violates the laws of physics as we know them (specifically BCS-theory).
Frank
It seems to me you are the one who wants to have philosophical beliefs spill over into historical analysis. And that is ok with me. I am just saying lets not pretend our philosophical beliefs are not biasing our historical conclusions when they are.
You, unlike Ehrman, seem to openly admit you are adding certain philosophical beliefs to the criteria. You are adding the philosophical belief that miracles never occur to your historical criteria. I am totally ok with you doing that. The thing is Ehrman emphatically denies that is what he is doing. He says:
“Some people since the enlightenment in Europe have insisted that such miracles cannot happen. For people like this, since miracles don’t happen, Jesus necessarily did not do miracles. This view can be called the “philosophical problem of miracle” I want to state emphatically that this is not the issue that I want to address in this lecture. I am not dealing with the philosophical problem of whether miracles are possible. That’s not what I want to deal with. For the sake of the argument I am willing to concede that miracles can and do happen. For the sake of the argument Ill concede that they happen.”
Now it seems to me that you are taking a very different approach. You basically stack the deck against the possibility of historical analysis providing evidence of miracles because you define them out. Ehrman wants to be able to say he is not cooking the books in such a way that conclusions in history will always deny miracles.
Now maybe I am wrong you are not adding the criteria which would stack the deck by defining historical analysis in such as way that it will never provide evidence of a miracle. I agree that Ehrmans criteria do not stack the deck in that way. Ehrman’s set out historical criteria that did not exclude the possibility of miracles. (Multiply attested, lack bias, close in time to the event etc etc. ) I numbered them in my original post. So if we take Ehrman’s approach then what you say makes little sense.
You say no one can apply historical analysis (and here I will assume that you mean apply the criteria Ehrman listed and I listed in my post) to the third claim. (that jesus was alive at some date after the crucifixion date) But of course even you would say they could if they reject the second claim. (that Jesus died on the crucifixion day.) That is why if we assume Ehrman’s criteria your position is somewhat absurd. You are saying people who reject the second claim can apply historical analysis to the third claim. And people who reject the third claim can apply historical analysis to the second claim. But somehow once you accept the third claim then you no longer can you apply the historical criteria to the second. And once you accept the second claim somehow we can’t apply the criteria to the third. Of course we can treat them as independent claims and apply the criteria.
If we come to find that both historically pass muster we may find that very good philosophical or religious reasons prevent our believing both. But then we properly understand our rejection is despite the historical evidence not because of it.
Lets take you case of Aristoteles. Lets say that after considering Ehrman’s historical criteria I find yep there is historical evidence that he lit all these ships on fire. Is that the end of the issue? If we accept Ehrman’s sincere view that these criteria are what makes up historical analysis then we should agree that the historical analysis is at an end. But is that the end of the issue on whether we should accept it as true overall? No of course not.
We would want to hear from scientists. And their views will be based on science – not history. And if they conclude that the laws of nature had to be violated for that to occur, then we look to philosophy. And if our philosophical view is that nothing could ever violate a law of nature then we would weigh the evidence. We would weigh the historical evidence against our view that the laws of nature could never be violated. In essence if we believe the latter more strongly then we say the historical evidence is there, but it is not strong enough to accept that happened due to it contradicting our philosophical beliefs.
I believe the laws of nature can be violated. But I do not believe the laws of nature are violated willy nilly. I have religious views that govern when such laws might be violated. So I would weigh both my philosophical and my religious beliefs against the historical evidence such as it is.
Look at me admitting my religious beliefs might trump historical evidence as to my ultimate opinion! I mean can I possibly kill my intellectual credibility more than that? I recognize that, I am just trying to be honest and transparent, about how I look at issues. And I am also willing to explain why I think my views are legitimate. What I do not like is trying to pack philosophical biases into analysis that claims to be neutral.
Now sure often we can do the analysis on Aristoteles quite quickly and not have to laboriously go through all these steps. But I think it is important that we keep an open mind. I mean can you even imagine historical evidence for you to believe a law of nature was violated? Consider David N’s post on 10/3 at 12:11. If we define history to exclude that possibility based on your philosophical beliefs then ok it won’t ever – by definition. But I think we are just muddying the word “history” with semantic games in order to serve our philosophical biases.
BTW I do not think Ehrman is being dishonest. I just think he has a flawed understanding of a complicated philosophical issue.
Dan eyre,
Not even close to close.
I’m afraid you don’t get to tell them what deity they worship. They believe their God is the same one worshipped by Abraham, Moses and Jesus. You can disagree with what they believe about that god, but you can’t pretend they worship some other deity to you just because you don’t like their beliefs.
My religious argument might work for some Christians it might not work for others. But how well the argument works is clearly a religious dispute that would analyze religious beliefs. For example would we think that the new testament is inspired when it said Jesus died on the cross and then the Koran seems to say he was not crucified and several other such issues. And would the same God inspire both writings etc? My point is not that the argument is so great it would convince everyone, but rather that this would be a religious argument not a historical one.
Now if I disputed the splitting of the moon based on the historical criteria Ehrman offers then that would be a a historical analysis.
No Jarrod you are factually wrong.
It is the exact same deity with the same basic mythology and alleged nature and even has the same name.
Which is hardly surprising given the very strong similarities between Christianity and Islam (and I expect that like many American Christians; your eyes might be combusting in the face of such heresy).
What you like to believe does not change the bare hard facts.
You’re like Richard Dawkins and co telling christians how they should believe given the Bible.
It seems obvious to me that you deny the validity and power of a thing being true or false.
And that’s what seems obvious about you to everyone else.
Does Ehrman cite this in his book?
http://www.giornopaganomemoria.it/theodosian1610.html
Yes, he deals with the various attempted imperial restrictions on sacrifice and public (and publically-funded) pagan worship extensively. It would be hard to write a book on this subject without doing so.
Also, what do you make of Canida Moss’ book on Christians inventing their persecutions? It was called “The Myth of Persecution”.
It’s not bad, though she overstates her case. That Christians exaggerated the extent of the persecutions is not controversial and it’s long been accepted that many of the traditional “martyr stories” (including almost all of the ones about the Twelve Disciples) are much later fictions. But Moss stretches her thesis when she claims the Neronic Persecution didn’t happen (despite it being multiply attested in non-Christian works – Tacitus and Suetonius). And she is too quick to dismiss any persecution that was local and limited in scope, focusing mainly on the “Great Persecutions” of the third century and downplaying their extent as well.
The real problems though lies in how her book has been used by the usual suspects, with online New Atheists seizing it and leaping acrobatically from “the persecutions were not as constant, universal or deadly as Christian legend makes out” to “they didn’t happen at all”. I’ve seen people claim this several times, though on confronting them with the evidence via quotes from Moss’ book, it emerged that they hadn’t actually read the book.
Yeah. Many argue that Suetonius never recounts Nero blaming Christians for the fire but only mentins them once in regard to Nero, that he only mentions that punishments were inflicted on them by Nero without any reason given (lumping them in with other groups he was persecuting at the danr time), and that Nero would be the exception – even if he did blame the great fire on a tiny rabble group that was barely existent at the time – not the rule. I’ve also heard it argued that Tacitus was just reaching for a polemic to use against the Christians be hated so much
Suetonius doesn’t specify why Nero “punished” the Christians, but it’s hard to argue a Neronic Persecution didn’t happen when both he and Tacitus specifically say … he persecuted Christians. Tertullian also confidently tells his pagan readers to “consult your records” to see that the despised Nero persecuted Christianity. He is arguing that if someone as bad as Nero hated Christianity, Christianity can’t be so bad – an argument that would fall flat unless he was sure anyone who did consult those records would find the persecution did happen. I cover the argument that only Tacitus says the fire was the cause of the persecution in my Tacitus article.
I don’t think Tacitus would have made up the Neronic persecution to make the Christians look bad, given that the point of the story was to emphasise what a creep Nero was. Its rhetorical punchline is “and he was so cruel that people even pitied the horrible Christians for the sufferings he inflicted on them”. The idea that he made the whole episode up is pretty fanciful.
Simply calling folks “fringe” and “extremists” tells me nothing about their views but tells me a great deal about the views of the one throwing those accusations around. How are “mythicists” extreme? I’ve read all of Ehrman’s books. I disagree with your assessment of this one, and that’s okay, but I’m leaving your blog with a greater sense of unease about the state of modern discourse. Was it necessary to spend so much time digressing into personal attacks?
Does it? How? Because all it would tell most people is that those “folks” positions are fringe. And nowhere did I say anyone was an “extremist”. You just imagined that.
Where did I say they were “extreme”? The only use of that word was in a sentence talking about how Ehrman is often denigrated by people at opposite ends of a spectrum of beliefs. Which he is.
Er, thanks. I think.
Your “unease” is baseless because those “personal attacks” are purely in your imagination.
Calling JM “scholars” fringe is nothing but pointing out the fact that the majority of scholars (Ie people who are actually qualified; ie not me, but, with some charitability, Doherty, Carrier and Price) are nothing but a tiny majority deviating from the overall consensus. In the same vein the De Broglie-Bohm interpretation is fringe; very few qualified physicists accept it.
That JMs are loud-mouthed is no reason to take them serious. It’s only a testimony of their successfull PR-strategy, some structural problems in the field of history of Antiquity and atheist tribalism.
What strikes me is that you neglect all the content. You write nothing about evidence, method, hypotheses. Instead you complain about the tone, have nothing to contribute but “I disagree and that’s OK” and hence behave like a tone troll. So do Young Earth Creationists when complaining about “darwinism”.
“overall comes to the same conclusion of most objective historians: Christianity did not win out because of violent coercion.”
This is an irresponsible conclusion. Any authoritarian regime can subjugate a population with only a small number of truly violent acts. For example, look at most modern dictatorships: the number of people murdered for the cause of the dictatorship is actually quite small, since most people will avoid trouble due to their own nature and circumstances. Therefore, just because the number of cruel executions of pagans was small compared to the total population, it seems clear that people were terrorized to go against the powerful Roman empire official religion. Once Constantin propagandized christianity and the religion was later made official, it seemed stupid to anyone to fight the power of the emperor, and mass “conversions” were only expected. The few people who remained truthful to their beliefs were not only ostracized but also victimized by laws targeting pagans. So, all the common arguments advanced in his book about seemingly important details such miracles and ethics appear to be just a moot point compared to the fear one would feel of going against the Roman empire and its institutions. It seems to me that this new book by Bart, who is, after all, paid by the Christian status quo, is (if sincere of not) just another layer of obfuscation over the real violent and intents and methods of the Christian sect.
Try backing this claim with evidence. Show us this “small number of cruel executions of pagans” and produce evidence that makes it “clear that people were terrorized” by them.
Ehrman shows clearly that the demographic trends show that Christianity would have been the majority religion in the Empire by the end of the fourth century even if no emperors had converted. So, wrong.
“For example, look at most modern dictatorships.”
The Roman Empire was not modern. When using analogies you not only must consider the similarities, but also the differences. Those were pretty striking. To keep it simple: the Roman Empire lacked the means. Killing some pagans in Anatolia had zero impact in Brittannia. At best it took months before the news got there. So nobody got scared there.
Worse, you’re guilty of special pleading. The pagan emperors failed to stamp out christianity as well. There is no reason to assume that christian emperors were more successfull. On the contrary, anti-pagan decrees were issued over and over again (something modern dictatorships don’t have to do). Why would that be? Because they had little impact, for instance. Only 200 years after christianity had become state religion the famous (pagan) academy of Athena was closed.
Finally you forget that after the loss of the Western Roman Empire many European areas converted without much do, Ireland being a fine example.
Christianity was never above violence (nobody was). The point is that violence usually was an ineffective tool to spread a religion. Because (lack of) technology.
You are the one who is irresponsible, because you fail to consider all the relevant evidence, especially when it falsifies your prejudices.