The Great Myths 10: Soviet Atheism
Christian apologists try to claim the Soviet regime was murderous because it was atheistic. To counter this, New Atheists have tried to argue atheism had nothing to do with any mass murder and oppression in the Soviet Union. Both arguments are wrong, but the New Atheist one involves contorted sophistry along with some quite remarkable distortion of historical facts.
In March 2001 the Taliban regime in Afghanistan shocked the world by undertaking a weeks-long program of destruction to, literally, deface the giant statues of the Buddha at Bamiyan; all in the name of their hardline interpretation of Islam. One of those who later condemned this iconoclasm was Richard Dawkins who commented with distaste on this and other examples of fundamentalist Islamic vandalism. With his usual great self-assurance, Dawkins declared:
I do not believe there is an atheist in the world who would bulldoze Mecca—or Chartres, York Minster or Notre Dame, the Shwe Dagon, the temples of Kyoto or, of course, the Buddhas of Bamiyan.
(Dawkins, The God Delusion, p. 249)
Unfortunately for Dawkins, the recent history of atheism does not support his idealism here. Perhaps he was simply unaware of clear examples of atheists doing precisely what he claims they would never do. The Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow was commissioned by Tsar Alexander I in 1812, to give thanks for Napoleon’s recent retreat from Russia. The huge building took decades to complete and was consecrated on 26 May, 1883. Topped by gold domes and filled with marble and paintings, the Cathedral was the third tallest Orthodox church in the world and was also the venue for the first performance of Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture.
But on December 5, 1931, it was reduced to rubble by order of Josef Stalin – not bulldozed, certainly, but destroyed by the use of high explosives, Taliban-style. The destruction of the cathedral was part of a long campaign of the demolition and confiscation of churches and other religious buildings in the Soviet Union, as part of the Communist regime’s dedication to the imposition of atheism on the Russian people. Between 1917 and 1969 an estimated 41,000 Russian churches were destroyed or closed in the name of state sponsored atheism. The 20 tons of gold from the Cathedral’s domes went to the coffers of the Soviet state and much of its marble and decorations were incorporated into the Moscow Metro’s stations. Dawkins seems blissfully unaware that the twentieth century’s Communist atheists put the Taliban’s paltry efforts in the shade.
Soviet Atheist Ideology
New Atheist responses to the historical problem Soviet atheism poses for them are largely a response to a bad historical argument presented to them by many of their religious opponents. Christian apologist critics of atheism use it as a bludgeon: according to them, the Soviet Union was uniquely bloodthirsty and oppressive precisely because it was atheistic. To Christian ideologues like Dinesh D’Souza, the Soviet Union shows us what happens when an atheistic regime takes power, unshackled by theistic morality and decency:
Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness, the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades. It’s time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history.
(“Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history”, The Christian Science Monitor, November 21, 2006)
The most common defence against this line of argument by New Atheists is to deflect the blame for the crimes of the Soviet Union from atheism to the ideology of Marxist-Leninism and to downplay or reframe the role of atheism in that political doctrine. Richard Dawkins responds to the common Christian apologist charge that twentieth century atheism – embodied in Hitler and Stalin – has killed more people that any religion by noting, correctly, that Hitler was not an atheist. But he goes on:
[B]ut even if [Hitler was an atheist], the bottom line of the Stalin/Hitler debating point is very simple. Individual atheists may do evil things but they don’t do evil things in the name of atheism. Stalin and Hitler did extremely evil things, in the name of, respectively, dogmatic and doctrinaire Marxism, and an insane and unscientific eugenics theory tinged with sub-Wagnerian ravings. Religious wars really are fought in the name of religion, and they have been horribly frequent in history. I cannot think of any war that has been fought in the name of atheism.
(Dawkins, The God Delusion, p.278)
So Dawkins brushes aside any association of atheism with the crimes of the Soviet Union by claiming it was simply “individual atheists doing evil things” in the name of Marxism, not in the name of atheism.
This is rather too glib, but that is somewhat understandable given it is in response to a bluntly wrong-headed piece of polemics by the likes of D’Souza, who has about as weak a grasp of history as Dawkins. To reduce the crimes of Soviet Communism to “atheism makes people bad” is absurd and any examination of regimes where religious ideologies have turned authoritarian shows that they are equally capable of violent and bloodthirsty oppression. What historical religious totalitarianism may have lacked regarding modern technology and mass communication they made up for with enthusiasm for the task of killing and torturing people. Given the resources of the Soviet Union, any pre-modern theocracy would have been every bit as blood-soaked and oppressive.
That said, Dawkins’ defence is largely nonsense. While not all Soviet oppression was atheistic in its motivation by any means, to say atheism had no role in it at all is utterly wrong; though in Dawkins’ case his argument is likely based on a profound ignorance of history rather than disingenuousness. Of course, most of the excesses of the Soviets were those of a dogmatic political ideology trying to impose itself by force and, later, a totalitarian regime maintaining its dominance by violence. But that ideology definitely was proudly and self-consciously atheistic, with atheism as one of its central philosophical tenets. As a result, over its history it sought to impose atheism on the Soviet people, usually by various levels of coercion and, periodically, by violent force.
Marxist-Leninism’s atheism had its origins in a much earlier philosophical tradition, particularly the eighteenth century French radical attempts at reshaping society along purely rational lines. The origins of these efforts can be found in the works of the French philosophes, such as Voltaire, Rousseau, Diderot and de Condorcet, and they took on a distinctly anti-Christian or even overtly atheistic tenor in the arguments of Claude Adrien Helvétius (1715-1771) and Sylvain Maréchal (1750-1803). Maréchal was a communist and an atheist who enthusiastically supported the French Revolution. Like many of his fellow revolutionaries, he saw the Church as a pillar of the hated Ancien Régime, though he went further than most in proposing its complete dismantling and the establishment of an atheistic social order. In his Dictionnaire des Athées anciens et modernes (1800) Maréchal depicts the atheist as completely unconcerned with any question regarding God, saying the issue of God’s existence “no more concerns him than the question whether or not there is animal life on the moon”. Regarding Christianity, he calls for:
… the utter destruction of a long-standing and imposing error, which affects everything in existence, which distorts everything, virtue itself included, which is a pitfall for the weak, a lever for the strong, and a barrier to genius.
Other French revolutionaries shared this ideal and in 1794 the new regime briefly replaced Catholicism with a short-lived atheistic Cult of Reason based on principles similar to those outlined by Maréchal, before it was suppressed by Robespierre as a step too far and replaced by the less radical Cult of the Supreme Being.
These experiments in atheistic utopias collapsed as the French Revolution descended into chaos and evolved into Napoleonic imperialism, but they left a legacy in the radical political philosophies of the following century, and Russian radicalism had a distinctly anti-religious tenor as a result.
This is understandable, given that the Russian Orthodox Church had long since been made an integral part of Tsarist autocracy. Despite the Russian Empire encompassing a variety of religions, the Orthodox Church was given a highly privileged position, forming part of a tripartite ideological formula of Orthodoxy (pravoslavie), autocracy (samoderzhavie) and nationalism (narodnost). This means that in the century before 1917 Revolution, the Orthodox Church was completely entangled with the Tsarist Regime.
Late nineteenth century Russian radicalism drew heavily on other European thinkers, such as Ludwig Feuerbach (1804-1872), who saw religion as deriving almost entirely from the material conditions in which people lived. Karl Marx (1818-1883) gave Feuerbach’s more abstract ideas about this a different and far more political turn by concluding, with his friend and collaborator Friedrich Engels (1829-1895), that religion was something holding back radical change to those material conditions. For Marx and Engels, one of the key ways to reform society and liberate the working class was to liberate them from all religion. As Engels declared:
We want to sweep away everything that claims to be supernatural and superhuman, and thereby get rid of untruthfulness, for the root of all untruth and lying is the pretension of the human and the natural to be superhuman and supernatural. For that reason we have once and for all declared war on religion and religious ideas and care little whether we are called atheists or anything else.
(Engels’ “The Condition of England: Review of *Past and Present* by Thomas Carlyle” 1844)
Lenin and the Bolsheviks therefore inherited both the French revolutionaries’ distaste for the Church as a conservative bulwark supporting the aristocratic ruling class and Feuerbach, Marx and Engels’ conception of religion generally as a delusion that holds back humanity. This made atheism a central and critical tenet of their political ideology. Lenin had a practical and highly political approach to the issue, mandating “complete separation of church and state …. as a necessary component of political freedom” and arguing that the Soviet state was to be indifferent to people’s religious beliefs, so long as they remained “a private affair”. Party members, on the other hand, were not to be afforded this kind of freedom:
So far as the party of the socialist proletariat is concerned, religion is not a private affair. …. [The party is] an association of class-conscious, advanced fighters for the emancipation of the working class [and] cannot and must not be indifferent to lack of class-consciousness, ignorance or obscurantism in the shape of religious beliefs.
(Lenin, “Socialism and Religion”, (1905)
For Lenin, the main focus of the party was to make a revolution and bring about a Communist system. Once the social and economic basis of religious ignorance and obscurantism had been destroyed and Communism established, religion would – by the power of Dialectical Materialism – wither and die out.
Anti-Religion in the Early Soviet Union
At least, that was the plan. The Bolsheviks were to be beacons of secular enlightenment to the masses and, through their example, their leadership and their efforts in educating the workers, help bring about the atheist Communist ideal that would inevitably come as religion died out.
That inexorable death of religion was to be given something of a helping hand by the new Soviet state, of course, given that the Orthodox Church needed to be stripped of its political power. So part of the early Soviet Union’s separation of church and state included decrees on the nationalisation of all church and monastic land (October 26, 1917), the creation of secular institutions for marriage and the registration of children’s birth (December 18, 1917) and the removal of religious organisations from any judicial and educational entities (January 23, 1918). Likewise, religious rituals and ceremonies were banned from any government or social activity and private rituals were only allowed on the condition they “do not disturb the social order and do not infringe on the rights of citizens”. In these early years the Bolsheviks also undermined the Orthodox Church by allying with minority sects and religious reform dissidents – partly because Lenin saw the latter as worthy allies and partly to weaken the Orthodox hierarchy.
The Civil War of 1918-20 saw this attack on the dominant Orthodox Church’s political power accelerate, as the Church was seen as an active enemy of the Soviet state. The famine caused by Bolshevik policies was used against the Church, with the state demanding that Church lands be sold off for famine relief and to support the war effort. Church property, including valuable sacred objects, was seized by force, sparking bitter popular resistance from believers, who considered this sacrilege. This marked the end of Lenin’s outward tolerance and on March 19, 1922, he wrote to the Bolshevik Politburo declaring “a ruthless battle against the black-hundreds clergy” and pro-religious intellectuals who were the “over-educated lackeys of clericalism”.
Mass arrests of clergy and prominent religious apologists began on the grounds that these were “counter-revolutionaries”. At this stage Lenin stressed the importance not to alienate the masses through over-aggressive anti-religious activity – the Soviet state was too precarious to put the people off side. For now, the aggression against religion was largely against the perceived political threat of Orthodox clergy and intellectuals.
Meanwhile, the masses were to be won over to atheism by the evangelical efforts of the Party faithful. In 1925 the Party founded the League of Militant Atheists (Sojúz Voínstvujuščih Bezbóžnikov). Wielding slogans like “The Struggle Against Religion is a Struggle for Socialism!”, the League set up branches and apparatchiks in factories, collective farms, universities and schools across the Soviet Union. By 1945 the League was to have 3.5 million members and 96,000 offices across the country. The newspaper Bezbozhnik (“Godless”) had already been established in 1922 and was instrumental in the founding of the League. In 1923 it was joined by a magazine aimed at workers called Bezbozhnik u Stanka (“The Atheist at the Workbench”) and a number of scientific and methodological journals for the Party intelligentsia, such as Ateist (“Atheist” – from 1923) and Antireligioznik (“Antireligion” – from 1926). A newspaper for rural workers, Derevenskii bezbozhnik (“The Rural Godless”) was established in 1928.
The League and its publications pushed the idea that religion was inevitably dying out in the face of Soviet ideology, ridiculed Christian clergy and Jewish rabbis as oppressors of the Russian people and reported favourably on the closing of churches, the arrest of clergy and the confiscation of church lands.
Yemelyan Yaroslavsky had founded Bezbozhnik and quickly established himself as the leader of the League and the Soviet Union’s most prominent anti-religious propagandist. More radical atheists in the Party regarded him as too moderate, too intellectual and too focused on attacking the clergy rather than religion in general. That Yaroslavsky could be considered “moderate” is an indication of the tenor of anti-religious ideology at the time. At the Second Congress of Atheists in 1929, Yaroslavsky declared:
It is our duty to destroy every religious world-concept … If the destruction of ten million human beings, as happened in the last war, should be necessary for the triumph of one definite class, then that must be done and it will be done.
The strategy was denigration, marginalisation and persecution of the clergy and prominent religious activists and intellectuals and atheistic evangelisation and education of the masses. The former proved easier than the latter. The already overstretched Soviet education system in the pre-War years struggled to teach the basics and over-worked teachers largely ignored demands to teach anti-religious material and concentrated on reading, writing and arithmetic. Those teachers who did push atheism were often left unsupported by their superiors and met resistence and sometimes violence from their students’ parents.
Workers were to be educated in anti-religious and atheistic ideology via the League’s various publications and lectures, reading clubs and political discussion groups. Some churches were converted into museums of anti-religious exhibitions and in 1929 the Moscow Planetarium was established as a monument to the triumph of reason. The Planetarium was very popular, though the activities of the League less so. While the rural workers’ atheistic newspaper was declared to the Second Congress of Atheists to be wildly popular on the collective farms where it was distributed, it was closed down in 1932 due to a lack of interest. By the early 1930s much of the activity of the League and other instruments of anti-religion in the Soviet Union consisted of internal squabbling, power struggles and abstruse arguments among intellectuals, which left the Soviet masses largely unaffected and substantially uninterested.
The ideological issues around atheism became even more pressing for the Party thanks to the “Lenin Levy” – the push to greatly expand the ranks of the Party in the face of criticism that it had become elitist and dominated by theorists and intellectuals. From 1923 to 1925 the Party swelled by half a million members, mainly ordinary workers, few of whom had much exposure to the pure Marxist-Leninist theory or experience of the revolutionary underground of the early century. These new Party members did not see Communism as incompatible with religious belief and, while they embraced the rest of the Party’s ideological platform, atheism was a regular point of dissent for them. Yaroslavsky reported on this issue:
There have been almost no instances where workers would express disagreement with some other point of our Communist program: they accept it wholesale. …. But the question of religion, gods, icons and the observance of rituals …. not infrequently is the hardest of all to figure out for [them], especially the women workers.
(“Is It Possible to Live Without God?”, Pravda, June 1, 1924)
The Party’s intelligentsia strove to convince these new members that atheism and the rejection of religion was essential to the Communist cause, but the expanded Party’s members often struggled to reconcile this with the reality of a domestic and social life still permeated by rituals, prayer and icons. Even Yaroslavsky had to accept that a Party in which men outnumbered women eight to one meant compromises whereby a Party member would have to tolerate his wife’s icons in the home or baptising his children. Contrary to the ideological expectations of the pre-Revolutionary years and despite the concerted efforts of ideologues like Yaroslavsky, atheism was not dawning as a natural outworking of dialectical materialism or the noble example of Party cadres.
The Stalinist Phase: 1924 – 1943
Lenin’s death in 1924 did not immediately lead to any great change in Soviet anti-religious policy and practice, though the impression that the efforts of the previous decade had not produced great results was growing among the Party elite. This changed when Stalin instituted the First and Second Five Year Plans (1928-1932 and 1933-1937 respectively). The push for greater industrialisation and the collectivisation of agricultural production meant fundamental elements of Soviet ideology were imposed on workers from above, often by force. “Cultural revolution” was a fundamental element of the Plans and atheism was a key part of that.
With the First Five-Year Plan, the Bolsheviks sought to mobilize all resources towards industrialization, collectivization and cultural revolution. The antireligious campaign was an important part of the broader cultural revolution, since the cultural revolution was about class war, and religion was a class enemy. The party marshalled all the means at its disposal – atheist propaganda, legal and administrative restrictions and extralegal repression – to prevent religion from becoming an obstacle to constructing ‘socialism in one country’.
(Victoria Smolkin, A Sacred Space is Never Empty: A History of Soviet Atheism, Princeton, 2018, p. 46)
The Second Congress of Atheists in 1929 called for a “godless five year plan”, and the Council of People’s Commissars issued a decree, “On Religious Organisations”, which greatly reduced the “borders of legality” within which any religion could operate. Previous religious freedoms established in 1918 were revoked, monasteries were closed, religious communities had to register with state authorities and the former right to “freedom of religious propaganda” was removed, with only “atheistic propaganda” still protected by law. Smolkin observes that “in effect, the only right Soviet citizens retained was the right to worship inside the confines of specifically designated religious spaces.” (p. 46)
And even those were rapidly shrinking in number. In 1930, Yaroslavsky declared at a League meeting that “the process of full collectivisation is tied with the liquidation of a significant part of churches”. The closing, repurposing and destruction of churches had previously been sporadic and largely symbolic, but now it became systematic and calculated. Smolkin notes that “of more than fifty thousand Orthodox churches on the territory of the RSFSR in 1917, fewer than a thousand were left in 1939.” (p. 49)
Unsurprisingly, none of this was popular. The closure and destruction of churches, the banning of popular public rituals and the constant atheistic propaganda against icons, ceremonies, baptisms and processions caused widespread public resentment, led by clergy and lay religious activists and others that the state referred to as tserkoviks. These were seen as counter-revolutionaries and enemies of the state and, increasingly, they were marked for elimination. Stalin’s “Great Terror” came to a peak in 1937 and in that year alone eight thousand churches were closed or destroyed and 35,000 “servants of religious cults” (clergy and laity) were arrested. Many of these were exiled or simply executed. Mikhail Shkarovskii states baldly that in this period the Orthodox Church was “on the whole, destroyed.” (Russkaia pravoslavnaia tserkov’i sovetskoe gosudarstvo v 1943-1964 godakh, 199, p. 126 – quoted in Smolkin p. 47).
Given that few of these arrests involved any actual trial, the exact numbers are difficult to assess. The pretexts for the arrests were usually something to do with “anti-Soviet activity”, but in many cases this simply consisted of saying a prayer in public or some other minor religious act. In many cases there was no obvious pretext at all. Most of those arrested ended up in gulags for the usual three (later four) years, though the ones who survived were usually then sent into exile. Those who tried to return to their clerical role in their former diocese or parish were regularly arrested again and summarily shot.
Accounts of more prominent cases found their way to the outside world, usually if they involved a bishop or leading clergyman. Most went undocumented. Dimitry V. Pospielovsky’s Soviet Anti Religious Campaigns and Persecutions: A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory and Practice and the Believer Vol 2 (Palgrave Macmillan, 1988) catalogues a large number of the more prominent cases of summary arrest, imprisonment, exile and execution of clergy and religious activists in this period. No-one can credibly pretend that this was anything other than state-mandated atheism being imposed by violence. For example:
A group of geologists, surveying in the Siberian Taiga in the summer of 1933, had camped for a night in the vicinity of a concentration camp when they suddenly saw a group of prisoners being led by camp guards and lined up before a freshly dug ditch. When the guards saw the geologists they told them that these were priests, ‘an element alien to the Soviet Power’. This was the only rationalization for their execution.
(Pospielovsky, pp. 82-3)
The geologists were told to remove themselves to the nearby
tents. From the tents they heard how, before every individual execution, the victim was told that were he to deny God’s existence this would be his last chance to survive. In every case, without exception, the answer was: ‘God exists’. A pistol-shot followed. This procedure was repeated sixty times until the whole operation was over.
Pospielovsky gives many other very similar accounts. For example:
Early in 1934 three Orthodox priests and two lay believers were taken out of their special regime Kolyma camp to the local OGPU administration. Each of them was asked to renounce his faith in Jesus. Instead, all of them re-confirmed their faith, although they were warned: ‘If you don’t deny your Christ, [death] awaits you.’ Without any formal charges they were then taken to a freshly dug grave, and four were shot. One of the three priests, however, also without any explanation, was told to bury the dead and was spared.
(Pospielovsky, pp. 83)
By the eve of the Second World War, Stalin had effectively destroyed the Orthodox Church as an institution and severely constrained all other religious groups in the Soviet Union. But it was still clear that the Terror had not broken the people’s devotion to their religious faith. The 1937 census indicated that more than half of urban respondents identified as believers and this rose to two-thirds in rural areas. The 1939 census tried to solve the problem by removing the “religion” question, but even then many respondents answered the question “Citizen of which state?” with “Orthodox” or simply “Christian” (Smolkin, p. 48).
So while the atheist activist hardliners continued to push for the elimination of religion completely, the last years of the 1930s saw signs of some level of accommodation. Article 124 of the new Constitution of 1936 affirmed an at least theoretical right of Soviet citizens to “observe religious cults”. Persecution of clergy and prominent laypeople was still at a peak at this stage, but it was seen as a possible change in attitude at the top. In 1937 the historian Sergei Bakrushkin published an article entitled “On the Issue of the Christianisation of the Rus” in the journal Marxist Historian, arguing that the conversion of Grand Prince Vladimir to Christianity in 987 AD had not been a wicked imposition of a tool of oppression by foreign missionaries, but actually a savvy political decision to enter into a (for the time) more progressive ideology.
But the real change came in 1941 with the German invasion of the Soviet Union. Faced with defeat and crumbling Russian morale in the wake of swift German victories, Stalin realised he needed to draw on all the resources he had. He decided to reverse most of the previous anti-religious policies and harness the devotion of the people to the Orthodox faith to draw on its long tradition of patriotic defence of “Holy Mother Russia”. This had the added benefit of countering the Germans’ use of religion to undermine the Soviets in the territories they occupied and also mollified the Allies in the west, who were alarmed at reports of the anti-religious terror. Understandably relieved at the reversal, Sergii, the Orthodox Metropolitan of Moscow, put his support behind the war effort and in 1943, in return for some concessions by Stalin, Bishop Sergii gathered a council of nineteen bishops – sixteen of whom had just been released from gulags for the occasion – and was elected the Patriarch of Moscow. From this point the churches became a part of the apparatus of the Soviet state, even if it was often an uneasy relationship.
New Atheist Excuses
This was far from the end of the anti-religious campaigns in the Soviet Union or the end of the “atheist work” done by the League of Militant Atheists or the Party’s later atheist ideologues. New forms of oppression began under Khrushchev and continued under Brezhnev and his successors, right up to the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. These campaigns were less large scale and certainly far less bloody than the Stalinist anti-religion terror, but the idea that from the 1940s onward the Soviets became more or less tolerant of religion is nonsense.
Khrushchev placed more emphasis on education and, particularly, on extolling scientific achievements as a way to convince the Soviet people to abandon religion. Under his rule and that of Brezhnev, the ideologues of the Party realised that the rituals and ceremonial of the churches needed to be replaced with secular alternatives. This had some success, though many people attended the state’s wedding centres and birth registration ceremonies while also privately observing equivalent religious ceremonies at home. On the whole, the Soviet Union became predominantly secular by the 1990s, though not ideologically or militantly atheist in the way the early Bolsheviks had hoped. The secularisation paralleled a similar trend in western countries from the 1960s, and a decline in religiosity was not matched by an increasing fervour for Marxist-Leninism. On the contrary, young people in the 1980s and 1990s became increasingly uninterested in both.
But the awkward fact that there had definitely been persecution of believers in the Soviet Union, which resulted in the harassment, arrest, imprisonment, exile, torture and execution of hundreds of thousands of Soviet citizens purely in the name of atheism, is a problem for the current crop of anti-theistic activists. It is impossible to maintain what Nathan Johnstone calls “the innocence of atheism” in the face of these hard historical facts. So New Atheists work around this by either simply pretending these things never happened or pretending they somehow had nothing to do with atheism at all.
As already noted, Dawkins tries to brush Stalin’s crimes aside by claiming “individual atheists may do evil things but they don’t do evil things in the name of atheism”. To be fair, Dawkins is responding to the Christian apologist argument that atheism is inherently amoral and that Stalin is a testament to what happens when the restraints of theistic religion are removed. Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor made this argument in response to Dawkins’ book The God Delusion, asking “a God-free zone … ruled by reason, and where does it lead? It leads to terror and oppression.” (Today, 9 May, 2008, BBC Radio 4)
But the facts of history detailed above show that at least some of Stalin’s crimes against humanity were not just “individual atheists doing evil things” and were very much “doing evil things in the name of atheism”. Dawkins’ glib defence ignores history.
Other New Atheists take a different tack and declare that atheism is inherently incapable of driving people to oppress others because only an ideology can do this and atheism is not an ideology. Far from being an ideology, they argue, atheism is an absence of an ideology. So Keith M. Parsons contends “atheism, whether it is taken as the claim that belief in God is false or incoherent or unjustified, just does not have sufficient content to constitute a worldview” (“Atheism: Twilight or Dawn?”, in R. B. Stewart (ed.), The Future of Atheism: Alister McGrath & Daniel Dennett in Dialogue, 2008, p. 55). So nothing Stalin and Lenin et. al. did can be laid at the door of atheism per se – it can only be blamed on Marxist-Leninism.
This is less glib than Dawkins’ gambit, but still little more than nifty footwork. As Nathan Johnstone counters:
But politically, sociologically, culturally, even biologically, atheism is no longer an answer but a *question*. If there is no God, why has mankind been so disposed to believe in one? If so much of our lives have been shaped by an unreality, has this been beneficial or harmful? How far are we obligated to reshape our cultures in line with scientific naturalism, and is continued supernaturalism now a barrier to human well-being? The metaphysical conclusion of atheism has always been a trigger to sociological, cultural and political analysis – it makes almost unavoidable the development of a viewpoint on these issues.
(Johnstone, The New Atheism, Myth, and History: The Black Legends of Contemporary Anti-Religion, Palgrave Macmillan, 2018, p. 179)
Being an atheist himself, Johnstone is pretty clear that this is the case. And the New Atheists he is critiquing can not really argue otherwise, since most of them have written whole books presenting detailed answers to these very questions. No New Atheist book consists of one page saying simply “Is there a God? No. The end.”
So it is disingenuous to pretend that atheism is a pure abstract concept that can never be a central part of an ideology. And it is a historical nonsense that it was not a critical and motivating part of the Marxist-Leninism that led to the anti-religious campaigns and deadly persecutions outlined above. To brush aside evidence of NKVD goons asking people if they believed in God and then shooting them in the head if they said “yes” as if this has nothing to do with Soviet ideology’s intrinsic atheism is patently ridiculous.
Some try to rescue the argument by admitting that Soviet ideology did have atheism as a central tenet and people were oppressed and killed as a result. But they say that a fanatical application of any ideology is irrational and so counter to the (assumed) inherent rationality of atheism, so these were not really atheists by merit of their murderous fanaticism. This is a classic “No True Scotsman” Fallacy – it does not cut much ice when Christians try to claim Crusaders or Conquistadors were “not really Christians” when they killed in the name of Christ and it is equally weak here.
The final gambit used by New Atheists, and probably the one that seems most popular, is to flip the table and declare Marxist-Leninism to be … a religion. Hitchens makes this argument at length in Chapter Seventeen of his God is Not Great (2007). In his reading, all Stalin did was fill in the gap left by the Tsars and replace the trappings, ceremonial and totalitarianism of Tsarist Orthodoxy with Communist equivalents. As well as carefully noting that Stalin had “trained to be a priest in a seminary in Georgia”, Hitchens lists various parallels between Stalinism and religious extremism, from making science subordinate to theology, to fixed iconography, ritualised slogans, processions and parades and so on. As for the persecution of the churches under Stalin, while he assures his readers he is not trying to “explain or excuse the killing of priests and nuns and the desecration of churches”, he attributes this to mere “anti-clericalism”:
[T]he long association of religion with corrupt secular power has meant that most nations have to go through at least one anticlerical phase, from Cromwell through Henry VIII to the French Revolution to the Risorgimento.
(Hitchens, p. 83)
This argument is riddled with problems. The insinuation that Stalin’s education in a seminary school as a teenager somehow means that he was less of an atheist than he claimed or that his totalitarianism can be attributed to a religious education is weak. A Georgian Orthodox seminary school was certainly meant to ultimately turn out graduates who would go on to a clerical life, but most of its students would not. It was more like a Catholic high school in the west rather than a seminary in the western tradition. Stalin attended from the age of 14 to his expulsion six years later, but was not very interested in his studies, acted as something of a rebel and openly declared his atheism while still a student.
More importantly, to pretend that having trappings that can also be found in religions somehow makes Stalin’s Marxist-Leninism into a religion is absurd. The Olympic movement also has slogans, ideals, symbols, iconography, parades, rituals and other elements that parallel religious practices and ideas, but it is not a religion. Nor was Soviet Marxism. And to pretend that an ideology that was fundamentally atheistic and anti-religious was somehow a de facto religion is clearly nonsense, especially when at least a proportion of the crimes it committed were specifically and explicitly motivated by that atheism. This argument is little more than a clumsy attempt at sleight of hand.
Finally, Hitchens tries to deal with the awkward fact of specifically anti-religious atrocities by dismissing them as mere “anti-clericalism”. The flaws in this argument are apparent if we look at his examples. Henry VIII and Cromwell were trying to reform the clergy – they were not against clerics, they just thought the clerics of their time were corrupt, immoral, heretical or all three. And the French revolutionaries and the political radicals of Italy’s unification were trying to establish a separation of church and state, to remove ecclesiastical entanglement in politics. This was nothing like what we see in the Soviet Union, which was a concerted effort to destroy religion completely, based on an ideological commitment to atheism.
Of course not all of the atrocities committed by Stalin and other Soviet leaders were driven by this atheistic tenet in their program, but to pretend that none of them were is absurd. To dismiss it as mere “fanaticism” is disingenuous, given that atheism was a prominent part of the program they were fanatical about. To say it was just “evil people doing evil things” also ignores the centrality of atheism in the driving ideology that led to this evil. And to try to dress Soviet Marxist-Leninism as “effectively, just another religion” also skips around the fact atheism was a motivating force in many of these atrocities.
None of these arguments work. They fail as historical analysis and most of them fail even as rhetoric. Atheist activists have to abandon the claim that no-one killed in the name of atheism – they did, and the evidence of the twentieth century is clear on this. Acknowledging this fact of history does not somehow taint atheism per se or give ground to argument that atheism is inherently amoral. It is simply accepting a fact.
Further Reading
Nathan Johnstone, The New Atheism, Myth, and History: The Black Legends of Contemporary Anti-Religion, (Palgrave Macmillan, 2018)
Borden W. Painter, The New Atheist Denial of History, (Palgrave Macmillan, 2014)
Dimitry V. Pospielovsky’s Soviet Anti Religious Campaigns and Persecutions: A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory and Practice and the Believer Vol 2 (Palgrave Macmillan, 1988)
Victoria Smolkin, A Sacred Space Is Never Empty: A History of Soviet Atheism, (Princeton, 2018)
144 thoughts on “The Great Myths 10: Soviet Atheism”
I had thought the anti-clericalism argument was strongest (although the ‘other examples’ given are not really relevant). I thought the Soviet regimes developed a programme of atheism primarily because of their political ideology. They regarded the Church and its clerics as props and upholders of the old, corrupt, autocratic aristocracy and its hierarchy, and as conservatives, in opposition to the goals and leadership of the communists. So the atheism had a political (and to some degree socio-economic) motivation, and without the political agenda, atheism wouldn’t have had a look-in or been an issue. Atheism was a subordinate policy of the overarching political policy and agenda – seen as one means of achieving the political agenda.
That, I thought, is what makes it different from the new-atheist view of religious wars and religious oppression through history.
But the new-atheist has to work harder to find good examples in history of war and oppression that were indeed motivated by – or primarily motivated by – religion, without an overarching political agenda using religion as an excuse.
Henry VIII had a personal and political agenda. Oliver Cromwell had a political agenda. Even the First Crusade was partly the result of a political and social agenda, and may not have occurred in the absence of these, for purely religious reasons. Perhaps the persecutions and massacres of heretics are sometimes closer to the mark, or early-modern witchhunts, for example; they’d need to be studied carefully.
But I think the basic point of the anti-clericalism argument could be valid. The atheists ruling the Soviet regime stood up and said, “Your religion is undermining our political control, so we’re going to kill you.” I am not aware of anyone, ever, who has stood up and said, purely and simply, “I am an atheist, and I am going to kill you unless you stop practising your religion and believe in an absence of any god, same as me.” But there are religious people who do think like that – “You must die because you don’t believe and practise what I believe and practise.”
As I say above, if the Soviets had simply done what the French revolutionaries had done and worked to create a sharp separation between church and state to break the link between religion and the political system they were overturning, you’d have a clear point. But their ideology went much further and argued that religion was a wholesale and intrinsic evil that needed to be eradicated. This was not simply “anticlericalism” – it was ideological atheism imposed by violence.
I’m sorry, but I didn’t pick that up from what you said. I’m not making excuses. I’m not even strictly speaking an atheist. I’m just a historian, but this isn’t my era. Perhaps issues like this are a matter of interpretation and emphasis, without there being a clear answer; and try as we might, emotion can be involved to the same degree that polemic is.
In what you wrote, I saw the quotes of Maréchal and Engels indicating their beliefs that religion was “a wholesale and intrinsic evil”. But it seemed to me that with the 20th century Russians, as you said, “atheism [was] a central and critical tenet of their political ideology” because they inherited “Marx and Engels’ conception of religion generally as a delusion that holds back humanity”. Then the “Civil War of 1918-20 saw this attack on the dominant Orthodox Church’s political power accelerate, as the Church was seen as an active enemy of the Soviet state.” Even in the quote from Yaroslavsky, his goal is “the triumph of one definite class”, which is a socio-political goal.
“The Party’s intelligentsia strove to convince these new members that atheism and the rejection of religion was essential to the Communist cause”. Then there’s a quote from Smolkin: “The antireligious campaign was an important part of the broader cultural revolution, since the cultural revolution was was about class war, and religion was a class enemy.”
The geologists who saw the priests being murdered by guards were told, “these were priests, ‘an element alien to the Soviet Power’.” The rationalization is tragic, not logical, but it is clear. It is about political power allied to a mistaken social ideal. It is not about beliefs.
After that, you describe an era of some greater tolerance, and uneasy cooperation between Church and State, and later attempts to secularize through education.
So throughout, it looks to me like the atheistic agenda was only BECAUSE of the political-social agenda. No Soviet stood up and tried to exterminate believers because of belief. But, as I indicated in my previous comment, to find examples of “religious war” or “religious persecution” that have occurred purely or primarily because of belief is a lot rarer than atheists believe also.
I guess the Soviets were not fools in going beyond trying to establish “a sharp separation between church and state”. It hadn’t worked in history up that their time. What they tried to do didn’t work either, but they probably weren’t to know that before they tried it.
Yes. They saw the elimination of religion as a key part of the path to their political-social goals.
Yes they did. Because they saw that belief as an obstacle to their goals and saw atheism as a key path to those goals. There is no contradiction between those goals and the imposition of atheism – they were intrinsically connected in Soviet ideology. To say “well, it was really about socio-political aims and so not really about beliefs” is wrong – it was both.
Yes, I know it was both. But they didn’t do it JUST because people held different beliefs from them, or held beliefs when they held none. It was about beliefs only insofar as they thought the beliefs undermined the socio-political goals. So they were not exterminating believers because of belief, but exterminating believers because of the effect they thought belief had on the socio-political goals. And in that sense, the violence and killing was not about belief fundamentally, at base, as the root cause.
Does that make sense?
So the point is, would it have happened if they had not had that notion about the relationship between belief and danger to the socio-political goals? I don’t think so.
And then, anpoint is, can we say the same of religious oppression, persecution, violence? Has it happened, does it happen, purely because of religious belief, rather than notions about how belief may affect someone’s, or a leadership’s, social, economic, political goals?
No. So? Few things are so simple that anyone does anything for just one reason. The point is that the New Atheist defences all try to pretend that atheism had nothing to do with it at all. And that’s wrong.
Given the fact that the socio-political goals and the anti-religious ideology were so interconnected, this isn’t even a coherent question.
Almost certainly not. See above about history never being monocausal.
Well, they did Dechristianize France briefly as well, and set up the atheistic Cult of Reason.
Which I refer to in my article. Except they didn’t really “dechristianize France” and the Cult of Reason only lasted a year.
True, but my point was they briefly went beyond mere separation of church and state.
But they did trie to deschristianize France (not for merely a year, these attempts did not end with the fall of Robespierre but only in 1801, though they were less aggressive after 1794.
Nor did they ever try to separate Church and State before and after Dechristianisation. It is a myth or a misnomer.
Atheism is at the heart of Marx’s concept of alienation. God or gods are the expression in theological terms of man’s alienation from himself when others own him or his labour. That is, when he he works in a culture that alienates his labour. Religion was supposed to wither away when socialism reunited the worker with his labour, but the Soviets had pragmatic reasons for hurrying it along. Boy, just writing this reminds me how much enjoyed studying Marxism in university: such an ambitious and brilliant theory. And one based on bad history, of course.
“a programme of atheism primarily because of their political ideology”
The problem here is using simple, direct causation. As so often communism, marxism, leninism and stalinism were too complacted for this approach. So your last claim is incorrect.
There have been many (cf the Spanish civil war) who said “I am an marxist, and I am going to kill you unless you stop practising your politico-religious views”. Remember, according to marxists themselves politics and religions are always so closely connected that they are inseparable. And those marxists, no matter how many religious influences we can detect, always maintained that they are atheists.
AfaIc that settles it. New atheists get it wrong. As usual.
It won’t do to relegate the atheist strain in Communism into a mere measure of political expediency (as the article related, it actually was detrimental to the more immediate needs of the Soviet tyranny, so much that the rulers had to compromise again and again) – no, a world without belief in God was a goal of its own.
Then again, extreme, eliminatory atheism and anti-clericalism often mix. The article is in error in claiming that the French Revolution merely aimed at a Separation of Church and State. Despite such a myth propagated by French secularists, the Revolution never did that:
In its first phase, the Revolution did not at all separate church and state but rather made the union even closer, making clerics state officials with a salary alongside of robbing the Church of her property and changing its internal consitution. The goal, apart from making the Church pay for the debts incurred by the royal government, was increasing state control over the religious sphere.
In its second phase, the Revolution aimed not at Separation but as Dechristianisation. Whether the intended replacement was atheist rationalism (as in Hebert and his Cult of Reason) or Deism (as in Robespierre’s Cult of the Supreme Being). Christianity was not tolerated at all.
The third phase, under Napoleon, basically saw a return to the policies of the first phase, though in a more compromising way, taking bishops and the pope on board.
All these policies were based on the entirely faulty assumption that in the Ancien Regime the church dominated the government, when it was in fact they other way around, not only since Louis XIV (1661-1715) but already under Charles VII (around 1430) or even Philipp IV (around 1300).
Even the most recent Laws on the Separation of Church and State did not really aim at this. Again, it tried to disposses the Church of her buildings (and give it to other religious groups) and tried to change her internal consitution (from clerical to laical control). While these Laws passed and remain on the books, popular opposition basically broke their sting as Catholic laity did not play along.
I’ve tried to make the same arguments over a few years now on seeing the same arguments made repeatedly by other atheists, but with no success in swaying them. You make them far better, as usual. Sadly though I doubt this will sway the most committed, as with the others you’ve debunked. They are simply too convenient for them, no matter how fallacious.
“Atheism” has always struck me as a somewhat slippery term. If one merely means “non-belief in God”, then it has no particular implications — I just spend my time doing whatever I would normally do, but not taking time out to pray or attend church, and not thinking much about God except when someone else brings up the subject. Morality? Even people who believed in gods have been devising ethical systems that make no appeal to them since at least Plato and Aristotle, so it’s not obvious that atheism should cause any great crisis that way. (There is of course a *huge* discussion to be had about justifying ethics, and which ethics, *whether or not* God exists, but very few of the debaters on either side are even scratching the surface of the subject).
Atheism doesn’t even entail being anti-religion, without additional premises — but once you add those in, you’re no longer doing “mere” atheism, and you can no longer invoke the privative nature of the concept to argue for its necessary benignity. You have filled in some conceptual blanks, and the nature of your atheism (if you still choose to call it that) is determined by those premises, for good or ill.
That’s true, it is one of those words. Of course you’re right on ethics too.
In practice really, few people do “mere” atheism. That whole fight around “Atheism +” was silly partly for this reason. In fact, all of them had an atheism plus something else, they just disagreed on what it should be. For many it was atheism plus antitheism, secularism and skepticism about non-scientific claims. The disagreement was with adding social justice issues too. Without now getting into all that, it’s the same for pretty much everyone really. Atheism is usually the start, while rarely the end. As you say, that can be for good or ill. Christians who attack atheism entirely make the error of lumping atheists all together. The atheists who defend against this sometimes do the same thing in the opposite direction.
In practice really, few people do “mere” atheism.
On the contrary, I think the vast majority of atheists “do” (not much to do there) “mere” atheism. You just never hear about them.
Yes, fair point, I should say, those of us who make a point in describing ourselves that way and or advocating for atheism or related things.
And quite amusing when one thinks of how cross some atheists get when atheism is mischaracterised as a kind of religion but they’ll accept it for Marxism-Lenism. Another great read, thank you.
As I said in another comment (in moderation ATM), “mere” atheism can’t be plausibly called a religion, but if you surround it with enough other stuff, it might become part of one — humanism is sometimes termed a religious view or quasi-religion, in the sense that it seeks to provide meaning and purpose to life, and ethical guidance. The line between religion and personal philosophy is a blurry one.
Be that as it may, religion ties in to certain aspects of human psychology — virtue signalling, ingroup/outgroup demarcation, ethical guidance, sense of purpose, hero worship, obedience to authority, etc. Totalitarian political systems often attempt to latch on to those same bits of psychology, so I can see where the equivalence might be drawn (even though I think it’s stretching a term too far, and of course is being done largely in the service of rhetoric rather than understanding).
Frankly, talking about Atheism as a strict ideology that entirely guides politics is incorrect. But that is similar to Christianity or Islam. It isn’t like Feudalism was Christianity’s ideal state of existence or that the Ottoman Empire was the peak of Islam’s political organization.
Atheism does have a strong tendency to latch onto materialist historical narratives and political modes of thought. Be that Marxist-Leninism or modern Liberalism. It is tough to not have a materialist worldview if you are denying the concepts of divinity or metaphysical reality lol.
While Christianity can find itself in bed with materialist ideologies, I don’t find it to be taking such center stage in them as Atheism (or secularism). While ideas such as Marxist-Leninism is very explicitly Atheist in character and is guided by that when dealing with religion, as this article expresses.
It’s a hard thing for many to swallow. I still see sites like Quora and Reddit still have people claiming Communism is a religion or some other baffling statements.
Personally, I don’t think “atheism” is the proper word for describing what happened in the Soviet Union. More like “antitheism”. I think atheism cannot be a killing motivator, but antitheism can.
Nevertheless, great work as always. I’ve been looking forward for a long time for this article.
Your “atheism” vs. “antitheism” argument is merely semantics and hence doesn’t inform us about (historical) reality at all. The effect at best will be simply repeating the same wrong arguments, but replacing “atheism” by “unbelief”.
PS: I think the Soviets just used the word “atheism” back then since perhaps they don’t have a distinction word between atheism and antitheism. I’m not sure but it’s plausible.
Their approach was antitheistic but their objective was atheism. So the word is accurate.
“Atheism is the real force behind the mass murders of history.”
Neglecting the fact that atheism in western society only became popular 200-250 years ago this is even problematic regarding the Soviet-Union. The first ones who got a free stay in Hotel Lubyanka from 1918 on were social-democrats and anarchists, who mostly also were atheists. Atheists being persecuted by atheists in the name of atheism doesn’t make sense. New Atheists like Dawkins are apparently not smart enough to use this as a defense against stupid christian accusations.
What bugs me most from both sides is the claim of moral superiority that’s hidden behind this “discussion”. It’s exactly such claims that have justified lots and lots of cruelties in our modern times.
“the Christian apologist argument that atheism is inherently amoral”
I never understood why this should be a problem. There is not exactly a shortage of non-religious sources to build ethics upon. Even when defined as narrow as “Is there a God? No. The end.” there is nothing that prevents atheists to develop a secular ethical system. So my answer is “I don’t need to be a believer to be a moral person”.
There is a pattern. New atheists are so zealous fighting christianity that they fail to evaluate which strategies work and which ones make them look ridiculous. Like all fanatics they think dropping or even adapting an argument will be a destructive defeat and make their enemies win.
So much for new atheists being reasonable and rational.
“There is not exactly a shortage of non-religious sources to build ethics upon.”
But isn’t the Christian apologist’s argument, here, that there is nothing to hold atheists to account and make them stick to any code of ethics? That is, so they argue, if there is no God, and no hell, then deep down the atheist knows he can do whatever he wants without serious consequences. (Not breaking the law seriously, maybe. But – I don’t know – adultery, or lying, or taking a lollipop from a baby or whatever.)
“What bugs me most from both sides is the claim of moral superiority that’s hidden behind this “discussion”.”
Me too, I think!
No doubt some Christians make that argument. But most Christian apologetics arguments I’ve seen tend to focus on Moral Ontology – whether objective moral values actually exist in the first place, rather than how we come to decide/discover what these values are, or whether we need to be held to account for our actions.
That is a weaker argument though. Also practically speaking it’s not as important. Further they usually claim that atheism ipso facto equals moral relativism, which isn’t true. They either ignore or simply don’t know about exceptions.
“That is a weaker argument though. Also practically speaking it’s not as important. Further they usually claim that atheism ipso facto equals moral relativism,”
Incorrect, moral ontology is very important and should be laid down before any side claims the moral high horse of objectivity. Unless the atheist has a better explanation for the source of objective morals, he like the theist will have to deal with moral relativism and nihilism. This in turn destroys the atheist’s silver bullet argument, the problem of evil.
Moral relativism “AND nihilism”? As though the two necessarily go hand in hand? Sorry, but don’t clutter up the discussion here with idiotic apologist garbage like this. Get back onto the relevant topic of Soviet Atheism or into the spam file you’ll go.
To ToN,
I didn’t mean to promote any side. I was just saying that neither side was more moral or immoral on their own. I didn’t mean to upset you or break decorum.
My apologies.
De Tinker
Christian arguments vary widely in their sophistication. At one end you get the unreflective “There’s nothing to stop atheists raping and pillaging!” crap, which ignores basic psychology if nothing else — humans have strong dispositions towards cooperation and compassion, and against violence (though the opposite can also be true, depending on the situation). The smarter ones rely on metaethical arguments (like the one you cite), though even there they leap to the conclusion they want without considering possible rebuttals.
As it happens, I sort-of agree with the Christians here: I think it is hard to justify values independent of human attitudes. But since I don’t think they can justify their belief in God, or that God wants those particular values, they’re in no better shape than I am. And I think that practical considerations of what kind of world we each are willing to live in can get us pretty far down the ethical road (read Hobbes, for example).
@Cath.: “But isn’t the Christian apologist’s argument, …..”
It is a softened up version and not the best one. It’s crap for several reasons. This argument doesn’t pose a problem for atheists.
The best one is probably something like “you can’t ground ethics without God”. At least that’s not crappy, ie doesn’t have the flaws of that softened up version. It’s also wrong for the reason I gave.
@SteveW: ” I think it is hard to justify values independent of human attitudes.”
In the end it’s probably impossible, because any such justification relies on pure reason, ie only uses logic. The flaws of such epistemology have been known for a long time now. This applies equally to atheists and theists.
Back to the Soviet-Union and communism in general. It replaces god by something like “the party embodies the will of the people” when grounding morals. Starting here you can build a logically flawless ethical system. So indeed it all depends on human attitudes: are you OK with the GULAG or not?
I am not. I am not OK with atonement doctrines and God the Boogeyman morals either.
@FrankB: Oh, I agree with you about ethics: I’m an metaethical anti-realist, with possible exception for constructivism (which sort of bridges the divide, but does ultimately depend on human attitudes). Of course 90% of the Christian apologists one runs across have no idea what metaethics even is, so they lazily stop at the conclusion they want, and ignore the problems with Divine Command Theory.
FrankB
Being the first ones doesn’t mitigate the problem. Lenin and later Stalin had various enemies. So, all you’re getting is prioritization. For example, when Lenin introduced the NEP, this is something the Mensheviks had been proposing. This meant they had to go not because, in Schapiro’s memorable phrase, they were right, but because Lenin was wrong.
@Spike: “….. doesn’t mitigate the problem …..”
Then it’s a good thing that that was neither my conclusion nor my intention – rather the opposite. It shows that the “problem” (personally I think the resulting suffering quite more than that) is more than persecuting religion, that persecuting religion wasn’t the first priority of the bolsheviks and that persecution (including of religion) was inherent to the bolshevik ideology.
I find it peculiar that I have to explain this in detail.
While he is very polemic and not really a Historian, Solzhenitsyn makes a pretty decent case on how this is a bad angle. The Soviets purged their own members for stepping out of line with their coalition, they were casualties of their own wars they started. While the religious political prisoners were people that were explicitly held thanks to their religious beliefs and their explicit choice not to abandon them.
Killing the Mensheviks, Cadets, the SRs, or purging the Bolsheviks were a part of power struggles in the Soviet Union. While the deaths and imprisonment of the religious was an explicitly atheistic program to destroy religion.
“to pretend that an ideology that was fundamentally atheistic and anti-religious was somehow a de facto religion is clearly nonsense”
This is more complicated. In the first place several religious ideologies have systematically persecuted deviating religions. So presecuting believers and religous authorities doesn’t make one an atheist.
In the second place there is
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/No-True-Scotsman
So to make the argument “these were not really atheists by merit of their murderous fanaticism” work one has to show “murderous fanaticism” in the Soviet-Union was religiously inspired. I don’t think that works, but there is the fact that murderous fanaticism and Stalin’s deification went hand in hand.
This doesn’t take (new) atheism off the hook, not at all. Atheists went along with this deification and not only in the Soviet-Union. There is a long list of western intellectuals (ao Andre Gide, Anna Seghers, Bertold Brecht, Arnold Zweig, Pablo Neruda) who worshipped Stalin. Pretty damning, I say.
@Tim O’Neill
“The point is that the New Atheist defences all try to pretend that atheism had nothing to do with it at all. And that’s wrong.”
Yes, that is wrong. But that wasn’t my point, or the point I was trying to draw out and consider. My point was that people – both atheist and religious, need to understand pretty much what you say – that it is rare that “anyone does anything for just one reason”. That being so, it’s as wrong to blame atheism for what happened in Soviet Russia as it is wrong to blame what the Taliban did just on Islam. These things – violence and atrocities – would happen anyway. Religion – or atheism – may be used as excuses or tools to help them along. But belief – or its absence – is not the cause of evil. And these horrible things would perhaps not be done at all if belief – or its absence – were the only issues at stake.
“Given the fact that the socio-political goals and the anti-religious ideology were so interconnected, this isn’t even a coherent question.”
Sorry, but I think that’s rude. Of course it is a coherent question. We mightn’t like the question, but it makes perfect sense. Moreover, it should be possible to tease information out of the sources and find an answer. Maybe it would take a monograph, but that doesn’t mean someone shouldn’t try. If you don’t want to consider it as a question, say so. But don’t insult it and me because I ask it.
For the First Crusade, historians for decades have tried to tease out the social, political and economic causes, as well as religious, and how they help to explain what happened and the relations between nations of the west, and between the west and the east. Similar story with the causes of the German Reformation, and Henry VIII’s Reformation. This is no different. Trying to understand in detail causes for why things happened is in important role of the study of history.
It would be highly valuable to try to find an answer to the question – because of what I said above: belief – or its absence – is not the cause of evil, and these horrible things would perhaps not be done at all if belief – or its absence – were the only issues at stake. If that could that be studied, and proved with historical evidence with many examples, and the results popularized, it could take a lot of the heat and polemic out of the debate you have just spend a good deal of time writing this blog article about.
I worded it as questions, because I haven’t written the monograph. But it’s an argument that I think it is rude and short-sighted of you to belittle, if that’s what you just attempted to do in your reply to me.
It’s wrong to say they are the only causes. But my point, as I keep saying, is that the claim atheism had nothing to do with the Soviet atrocities, as the New Atheists try to claim, is nonsense.
It’s not “rude” to note that an argument doesn’t have sufficient coherence.
An argument can “make sense” and still lack coherence. You seem to be misunderstanding the term.
I did no such thing. Noting a lack of coherence in one of your arguments is criticising the argument, not “belittling” you. I think you are making good and mostly valid points. And we agree on the key one – to claim atheism had nothing to do with the Soviet atrocities is wrong.
“An argument can “make sense” and still lack coherence. You seem to be misunderstanding the term.”
Obviously, by makes sense, I mean that it is logical and consistent. And that is the meaning of “coherent”. Moreover what I had written was simply: “would it have happened if they had not had that notion about the relationship between belief and danger to the socio-political goals?” And you said it was not a coherent question (you weren’t even taking it as an argument). The question is consistent with what I had been discussing. It is a perfectly logical, rational and reasonable question (and see below for why I think it is important). But you say it is “not coherent” and don’t even properly address why you say that. I’m afraid I do see that as rude; it is dismissive. You say my question is incoherent because “the socio-political goals and the anti-religious ideology were so interconnected”. You know perfectly well, that is what I have been saying all along. But that does not mean once can’t look for and find situations in which they were not so interconnected, and investigate examples of the same.
As genuine feedback, perhaps you should consider that when you write, your tone frequently comes across as arrogant and superior (calling something someone has said “clearly nonsense” is another example). Softening it wouldn’t cost you anything, and might be more effective in winning new-atheists to your points of view.
But I think you have misunderstood, or just avoided, the point I have been trying to make, for the sake of repeating yours, which is not what I have been talking about. That is what I meant by short-sighted.
So I say again: It would be highly valuable to try to find an answer to the question – because of what I said above: belief – or its absence – is not the cause of evil, and these horrible things would perhaps not be done at all if belief – or its absence – were the only issues at stake. If that could be studied, and proved with historical evidence with many examples, and the results popularized, it could take a lot of the heat and polemic out of the debate you have just spend a good deal of time writing this blog article about.
Perhaps we’d find the answers to the question are not what we want after all. That would be a pity. But that doesn’t mean a historian shouldn’t ask the question.
I probably won’t reply here again, because I’ve found this conversation increasingly upsetting. I don’t expect that, when I go somewhere just to bandy ideas about.
There’s nothing wrong with those things in what you said, but I said it lacked sufficient coherence. You asked “would it have happened if they had not had that notion about the relationship between belief and danger to the socio-political goals?” I responded that we can’t separate the two in this case, so we can’t answer that question. That’s what I meant about the question lacking sufficient coherence.
I think I’ll stick to my style thanks. If I ever describe something as “clearly nonsense” without arguing why it’s nonsense, that would be a problem. But I make a point of backing up what I say.
You can do whatever you like, I suppose. But I have no idea why you’d be upset – I’ve been perfectly civil with you and have considered this an entirely friendly and interesting exchange.
Well this is at least starting to clear some things up.
“I said it lacked sufficient coherence”
No, I’m sorry but you didn’t. Please be accurate. You said, tersely, “this isn’t even a coherent question.” If you had said, “it lacked sufficient coherence”, that would actually have been better. It’s a matter of tone.
“I responded that we can’t separate the two in this case, so we can’t answer that question. That’s what I meant about the question lacking sufficient coherence.”
Your “in this case” that you say now, which you didn’t say then, makes a huge difference. My question was speculative about what if this case were different. My implication is also, by studying comparisons with any other cases (both atheist and, as I go on to say, religious). So if you weren’t intending to be dismissive, you were unfortunately misunderstanding what I had said. Perhaps I should have been clearer.
“I have no idea why you’d be upset”.
As I said, it’s your tone. But if you see no problem with it, you can do whatever you like too, I suppose. Perhaps how you think you come across is not always how you do, given that you are writing, not speaking with vocal inflection and facial expressions.
I’ve been trying to explain to you that this was what I was saying. I was posting very quickly at about 5 am so perhaps I could have been clearer.
A lot of academics will write something like “I am not sure this is quite right” when they mean “This is total nonsense”. I get the impression Tim is the other way around! Knowing that, I wouldn’t take it personally. 🙂
For those interested, here is a translation of the text on the pictures in the article:
* The badge is translated in the caption. (Russian)
* The image of the man holding a hammer and sickle: At the top: “Long live the fifth anniversary of the great proletariat revolution.” Bottom left: “The fourth congress of the Communist International”. On the banner: “Proletarians of all countries, unite!” (Russian)
* Poster with Stalin: “Long live the leader of the Soviet people, the great Stalin!” (Belarusian)
* Orange man holding a rocket: “To the Sun! To the stars!” (Russian)
The “it was only about anti-clericalism” argument can IMO also be undermined by pointing out how minority faiths like islam, judaism, catholicism, protestantism and even buddhism were savagely persecuted in the Stalin years.
Finally, the “orthodox church cooperated with Stalin in ww2, therefore not true atheist” argument strikes me as dishonest as fuck.
I mean, do you honestly think that Hitchens and his fanboys would not exploit the fact that in an alternate universe, the entirety of the orthodox church hierarchy actively collaborated with the nazis and their genocidal assault on the soviet union?
It’s kind of a lose-lose situtation no matter what the orthodox church choses.
Both good points.
Great job, Tim. This was fantastic.
I had not realized that the connection between the French Revolution and the Bolshevik Revolution was as strong as it was.
As a Christian, I am quite disturbed that certain Christian ideologues, like D’Souza, will make the use of propaganda in the way that they do. A good recent example of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy at work was the claim that no “real” Christian would have participated in the attack upon the U.S. Capital, on January 6, 2021. I know many Christians who deflect on this, believing that it is was mainly Antifa, who was behind inciting the mob. However, there is an overabundance of evidence that QAnon influenced Christians were clearly among those who led the infiltration of the Capital building.
At some point, Tim, it would be great to see you tackle something like Critical Race Theory: Historically speaking, is it simply an updated version of Martin Luther King Jr.’s vision of a “color-blind” society, or is it simply a softer version of Marxist-Leninism, for a younger set of generations, with racism/intersectionality at its core, instead of a primarily economic class-based critique of culture?
I can’t see how that would be relevant to the topic of this blog – atheists distorting history.
“As a Christian, I am quite disturbed that certain Christian ideologues …..”
Mutatis mutandis the same for atheist me. What’s behind it is something both the nazis and the Soviets applied: collective blame and responsibility. New atheists who tell a random christian that his/her belief is evil because of cruelties committed by totally different christians in another time and place display the same mentality.
So I repeat a recommendation: whenever you meet such a new atheist, point out that Martin Bormann was an outspoken atheist too.
I hesitate to attempt a thorough diagnosis of the psychology and sociology of atheistic communism, but please consider the following relevant insight into human nature provided by George Orwell of 1984 fame. He found that people often break up into tribes along national, political, and religious lines, being loyal to tribal comrades yet hostile to outsiders. Tribal thinking explains the ongoing violence between Serbs and Croats, Israelis and Palestinians, Hutus and Tutsis, Pakistanis and Hindus, Tamils and Sinhalese, and so forth. Orwell witnessed the horrors of tribal thinking at its worst committed by both the communist atheist Loyalists and the fascist Christian Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War, as we read in his essay “Notes on Nationalism”:
“By ‘nationalism’ [i.e., tribalism] I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But secondly—and this is much more important—I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests. … Nationalism, in the extended sense in which I am using the word, includes such movements and tendencies as Communism, political Catholicism, Zionism, Antisemitism, Trotskyism and Pacifism. It does not necessarily mean loyalty to a government or a country, still less to one’s own country, and it is not even strictly necessary that the units in which it deals should actually exist. To name a few obvious examples, Jewry, Islam, Christendom, the Proletariat and the White Race …”
Tribalism: when members of another tribe steal our women and cattle they are scum, when we do the same to them we are heroes. Both D’Souza and Dawkins (“I do not believe there is an atheist in the world who would bulldoze ….”) display similar double standards.
Do you think the oppression of Islamic practices among the Uyghurs by the Chinese Communist Party could be a current equivalent?
From what I understand about that situation, probably not. The CCP is not especially ideologically committed to anti-religious ideas but is heavily committed to stamping out any source of political opposition.
From what I understand though, the government is attempting to “reeducate” the Uyghurs (who are largely Muslim) into becoming atheists, as their religion is viewed as subversive. So it seems at least somewhat similar.
Somewhat. I wonder how much though. Unlike the Soviets of the period from 1917-1942, the CCP strikes me as being far more about political control rather than an ideological commitment to atheism.
Perhaps, though I’m not sure how it can be decoupled as (like you said above with the USSR) it’s part of their ideology. They are also stepping up on atheist propaganda too as more Chinese people become religious etc. too I hear however.
Like any smart despot, the CCP seeks to preempt any likely nexus of opposition. Religion, especially to the extent it forms part (often being entwined with other aspects of ethnicity) of an identity independent of that offered by the State, is one such nexus. In some ways it’s like the Canadian residential school system: take First Nations children out of their culture, Christianize them, and you won’t have an “Indian problem” to worry about, because there won’t be any Indians, as such. (I believe Australia attempted a similar policy with the Aborigines). So it’s not about religion as an opposing belief so much as religion as identity.
I forgot to add: That also seems to be what drives the suppression of Falun Gong.
Its a bit more complicated I would say. The CCP use to be a lot more tolerant of minority religions as long as they didn’t buck the trend (eg the Hui, the largest Muslim group, was generally protected by the CCP because the Hui view themselves as Han Chinese with some Muslim characteristics). This has changed under Xi, who has spent the last few years ramping up Chinese Jingoism and some older Mao practices to eradicate anything that could be a potential threat. You don’t just see this against the Uyghers, but a growing repression against the Hui.
Another interesting post. I’m sure a lot of people in the American Bible Belt South (a very terrible place!) where I live will appreciate reading this post 🙂 Communism and atheism are two cultural taboos here.
What’s an overlooked fact about communism and atheism is that one communist country, Albania, actually became the only country in the world to ban all religion! Not many people know about Albania, but at one point in its history, the Communist dictator Enver Hoxha actually banned all religious practices and demolished almost all mosques in the country with a few exceptions. This total ban of religion started in 1967 and ended with the fall of the Communist regime in 1992. This shows another example of the interconnection between atheism and some communist ideologies.
In addition, the Soviet secularization effort actually seemed to have a very strong effect in some of its provinces. This is illustrated well in Azerbaijan. In the 1920s and 1930s, many mosques in Muslim Azerbaijan were destroyed in line with the destruction of Orthodox churches. This was coupled by the general Soviet disregard for religion, which, after decades of effect, lead to Azerbaijan becoming very secular.
Interestingly, Azerbaijan is in a very awkward position. It’s a Muslim country nominally, but ranks as being one of the least religious countries in the world, which is rare for a predominantly Muslim country. A Gallup poll showed, for example, that over 50% of Azerbaijanis regard religion with little importance to their life. This is surprisingly lower than America and some European countries. This only disapproves the New Atheist myth that Soviet Communism had nothing to do with atheism further. The two clearly intermingled and reinforced one another.
The Albanian example is one that I have heard a little about, but have not studied. Ditto for the Soviets’ policies regarding Islam and other religions. While the books I read in researching this topic talked about Soviet “anti-religious policy and persecution”, they actually focused almost entirely on anti-Christian activity, with only a little focus on Jews in the Soviet Union and not much at all on Muslims. As a result, I didn’t say much about how these policies affected other faiths. It’s a big topic and to expand it further would have taken a lot more reading on my part.
@Tim O’Neill
Thank you.
Thank you for the article, Mr O’Neill; it was quite an interesting read. Whilst reading through the text, I noticed three errors, the first one being ‘was was’ (though it might’ve come from your source) and the second was ‘[…] by dismissing the are mere […]’.
By the way, is the Cristero War also considered to be an example of evil done in the name of atheism? Are there other examples of it?
Thanks, I’ve fixed those errors.
And no, I would consider the Cristero War more of an example of political anti-clericalism rather than ideological atheism being imposed by force.
Good article, though with Dawkins i think its a mix of ideological bias and ignorance, given his dislike of Religion in general.
I think a major part the problem is, in the west, Atheism is always equated with things that could be called ‘good’ for West; negative freedom, science, unique individuality, progress, liberalism, etc., whereas Religion is equated with ‘backward’ things like superstitions, war, order, traditions, burning of gays, etc.
So there is a high ideological bias there.
The truth is, if you want to be fair, most of nontheistic people in Asia could be as ‘bigoted’ as the theistic one. Take the Eastern frontier of Japan-Korea-China for example, most of those people are not religious but socially they are mimicking what conservative Christians believe in the West. There are actually fewer differences here. Like China or Korea for example is not really LGBT friendly, despite most of them are not really religious.
For me the issue is really obedience vs. Individualism. Atheism in the west was born along with anticlerical and negative freedom. Atheism in the East was born along with tight collective behavior and authoritarian movement.
Dawkins and many others may fall in trap of causality vs. correlation.
Anyway, thanks for the post. Nice to see that not all Atheists are banter goblins.
I know this comment was made a few years ago, but I wouldn’t necessarily say that East Asian countries are mimicking Conservative Christians per se. I’ve been living in Japan for over 4 years now, and while on the surface there seems to be a lot of correlation, there’s actually a lot different. So, while they look similar, the reasoning comes from different places. For example, Japan is probably as close as you can be to being the complete opposite of individualism in the United States.
Thank you, Tim.
I’d known a little about how bad the Soviet state was, thanks to the books by Brother Andrew and Richard Wurmbrand when I was younger, but I’d never made any in depth study of Communism myself.
They were a rotten bunch of people.
Don’t ever change Tim. I love the blog but I stay for your replies in the comment section.
‘The final gambit used by New Atheists, and probably the one that seems most popular, is to flip the table and declare Marxist-Leninism to be … a religion. Hitchens makes this argument at length in Chapter Seventeen of his God is Not Great (2007).’
Robert Service also makes this parallel at some length in his various books on the subject. He does so in the context of criticising the anticlericalism of the Soviet regime as hypocritical in light of their own quasi-religious status (in one of his more popular books he actually uses the slang phrase ‘they had a nerve’).
The problem here is that it’s impossible to define “religion” clearly and unambiguously. The worship of Stalin indeed can be called religious in some sense; another example is North-Korean juche. ToN addresses this somewhere in this article.
Perhaps we should label bolshevists (leninists and trotskistsare not exactly free of this hypocrisy either; neither are maoists) as religious atheists, “religious” then meaning more than just “believing in god(s)”.
The argument ‘against’ political religions boils down to the idea that religion doesn’t just require sacralisation, but also literal deification and some element of supernatural. The counter-argument is usually that not all religions necessarily involve or are based/focused on suspension of the laws of nature such as miracles, but often focus on mere sacralisation of philosophies, with the anti-political religion critics being too informed by the Christian experience.
I don’t think you can brush aside the ‘Stalinist religion’ argument that easily. There is plenty of academic literature on XX Century totalitarian regimes being some forms of ‘political religion’. It’s a category whose usefulness has been debated (in the case of Stalinism see for example Van Ree, 2016) but it’s there, and hold by prominent academics (just to cite a few: Griffin, Gentile, Payne, Vondung). Of course you can disagree with it, but it’s kinda funny to see you dismiss it as some online New Atheist quirk, or comparing it to the Olympic Games (!) it’s not something someone whose expertise focuses on the subject would ever do.
Did I say the argument that Stalinism was akin to a religion was unique to New Atheists? Of course not, because it isn’t. But “akin to a religion” and “effectively a religion” are not the same thing. The claim that Stalinism was a religion so has nothing to do with atheism is incoherent on several levels. Firstly, it had atheism as a central tenet, so to try to decouple it from atheism on the grounds it bears some resemblance to religions in some ways is absurd. Secondly, having some similarities with some aspects of many religions does not make it a religion, as my pertinent example of another non-religion with similar trappings – the Olympic movement – clearly shows. Thirdly, to pretend a movement that was fiercely ideologically opposed to all religions per se was, somehow, itself a religion is ridiculous.
The only way to make Marxist-Leninism in this period into “a religion” is to broaden the category of “religion” so wide that it becomes virtually meaningless.
It is easy to respond your first point: atheism means without God/s, but if the political religion theory is accurate, then you don’t need a god to be religious.
On the second point: the Olympics have some exterior traits common to religion- but if you had devoted some more time to the study of the concept of political religion, you’d know that there is more than that. Some sections of Stalin’s cult of personality in particular clearly showed him not just as a celebrated hero but as a religious (and Christian religious) character.
Thirdly, it wouldn’t be the first time that a movement which claims to be against something eventually turns into just what it declares to hate; Orwell and all that.
Personally, I don’t believe Marxist-Leninism was a political religion, although I do believe that late-Stalinist cult of personally somewhat qualified; this doesn’t really deny the point you are making here, as the bulk of anti-religious persecution was before that, and the virtual santification of Stalin was partially a product of his reapproachment with the churches.
My point is more that brutally dismissing even the mere idea of political religion without engaging with the literature and based only on the kinda simplistic reasoning (proclaim atheism hence can’t be religious) shows that you aren’t familiar with the subject and weakens your overall point. Even if you wanted to attack the idea of political religion, your objections here aren’t the ones usually used in academic debate.
I “engage” with the people I’m responding to – the New Atheists who make a facile argument equating Marxist Leninism under Lenin and Stalin prior to 1941 with religion to pretend it therefore somehow has nothing to do with ideological atheism. If others make a similar (but actually rather different) argument about a later period then that’s very nice. But irrelevant. The Olympics analogy is based precisely on the fact that both the Olympic movement and Marxist-Leninism in the relevant period had those few “exterior traits common to religion”, which shows how facile the New Atheist argument is. So my points all stand.
If there is someone who says that the later Stalin cult of personality wasn’t a “political religion”, I suggest you go argue with them. Given that you admit this actually has nothing much to do with any points I’m making here, I think you’re wasting your time here.
@Ecate: before I started reading this article I planned to make the same point as you. Alas it doesn’t work, because ToN doesn’t deny the religious aspects of stalinism. Neither does he state that atheism is the sole cause of Soviet atrocities. He merely states that atheism was one factor. We can only deny that by denying the evidence he has presented. As always semantic discussions (in this case about the proper definition of “religion”) do not change that at all.
It’s simple – “Stalin persecuted believers because he was an atheist” does not contradict “Stalin persecuted believers because he was a paranoid dictator” unless we want to be guilty of a false dilemma.
The only weakness I can see is that ToN is relatively easy on China. However he being wrong about that makes only things worse for new atheists – it would mean that atheism is a factor regarding the cruelties in China as well. As I accept evidence when inconvenient for me as well I tend to accept that.
Disclaimer: nothing here makes “atheism is evil ‘cuz the Gulag” any less absurd.
Let’s also not forget the state indoctrination into atheism using mythicism to destroy Christianity. School textbooks were commissioned specifically with this goal. Mythicism was, quite literally, a dogma for the atheist ideology of the USSR. In the case of Nikolsky, it looks like he may have been actively forced to endorse mythicism against his will. It was not until post-Stalinism during the Khrushchev Thaw in the mid-50’s that mythicism finally was dropped.
The League of Militant Atheists was actually instrumental in this, since their “Antireligion Universities” specifically would teach people how to “disprove” that Jesus existed. Under the advice of Vladimir Lenin in “On the Significance of Militant Materialism” published in 1922, they made use of the work of C. H. Arthur Drews’ book “The Christ Myth” (1909 in Ger.) to help perform these attacks, with Drews’ work basically being the standard until after the discovery of the DSS, also the Agapius translation of Josephus, and Nag Hammadi.
Similarly, mythicism was used as an indoctrination tool for state atheism in the People’s Republic of China until the 1980’s, when it largely began being disavowed after the Open Door Policy began taking effect and the government began freeing their religion scholars to debate the issues.
Side note, these are also the only two times that mythicism was ever a majority academic position in any country… when there was no academic freedom.
Yes, and I originally intended to go into some of that but in the end the focus of my article was on the oppression and murder in the name of state-mandated ideological atheism, so I cut back a lot of the details on the atheist propaganda and indoctrination that went along with it. I originally had a mention of Soviet Mythicism, but it got edited out of my final copy. But we are looking forward to the publication of your book on the history of Mythicism as an idea and its sections on this topic Chris. When will it be released?
Don’t know, atm. Wipf & Stock stopped responding and never got the contract to me. I’m emailing them again about things, but if nothing comes of that, then I am going to look for another publisher. If things get to hectic, I may just self-publish it (after I seek out endorsements from some academics first, that is), mostly because at this point I am tiring of mythicism and most of the drama it entails.
Anyways, at this point I’ve been focusing on preparing some articles for peer-reviewed journals on various mythicist issues, particularly focusing on Carrier’s theories.
Yes, this was the first thing I thought of when I saw the topic of this post. A discussion of Soviet mythicism efforts is a major plot point (actually it effectively gets the plot started) in the great novel “The Master and Margarita” by Bulgakov.
OK, if your goal was to discredit the Dawkins claim that crimes of Stalin has nothing to do with atheism, I think did you did a good job. But still, is the opposite claim defensible? Is the atheism the main motivation for the crimes of the Soviet Union? It’s hard to believe because we can find examples of how the soviets negotiated, and manipulated the church for the sake of their political and war agenda, (instead of exterminate the believers and their institutions). These examples suggest the religion, unlike the antisemitic belief in the nazi holocaust or the religion in the taliban’s take of power, had not the central role you say it had.
In Spanish civil war, many republicans killed catholic and burned churches, but almost all the killers were catholic as well. Spaniards have been and continuous to be religious people because that belief it’s omnipresent in society. One single election or coup cannot change the beliefs of entire generations. Sorry for my English and eventually for my historic mistakes, I’m Spanish living Spain and I’m not a professional of history, not even a dedicated amateur, but only a reader and admirer of Dawkins and cia. The kind of admirer who doesn’t care to say that you could be doing a very good job that deserves attention. It sound incoherent since your proclaimed goal of your blog it’s to discredit the historical claim and manipulation of New Atheist, but again, playing with words, we could say history is not the main motivation, or the only aspect covered by the new atheism.
Homosexuals were not well tolerated under soviet regime, even less than believers one could argue, at least to some extend. This does not mean the homophobic motive was the central motor of the ideology inside the Soviet Union, as you think of the anti-religious motivation. The formers were ilegalized by Stalin and could only organized themselves legally until 80’s, while the latters were recognized by the Stalin’s constitution to have right to go to “elections” and open theological schools in the 40’s. Even earlier, the Soviet State supported splits inside the Ortodox Church, as the “living church”… were they fan of a religious sect and belligerent with the other one? I don’t think so. During decades, the attitude towards church and religion has switched in function of the major interest of the soviet regime, as you explained in your article. But never being the religion a major interest in itself other than the threat of religious leadership might represent to the political power. It’s true that thousands of churches were destroyed, but it’s also true that other thousands of churches coexisted with communists during the whole history of Soviet Union.
But, being the facts described by Pospielovsky certainly anti-religious, were not so extended as to say they were the core of the soviet policy. The opposite, in my view, it’s not consistent of what I know from that period. Maybe I don’t know enough of that period, that’s a real possibility. But we all remember the flags and speeches of Soviet Union, with hammers and sickles, not with atheist symbols. The enemy was capitalism, not God. The switch from considering the priests (mainly the priests and bishops, the organized hierarchy, not the ordinary believers) as enemies of the workers to finally affirm that Russians had to defend their religion against Germans, tell us religion was a tool, not an aim itself.
I never knew that kind of consideration of the jews by the nazis, (killing valuable labour force for the war), nor the talibans with other religions in their extreme view of religion contaminating every single aspect of civil life. One single jew institution, it would be a joke in the IIW. Same for the talibans as far as I know. We can be sure that antisemitic policies and religious conceptions of islam can be deemed as the motives or inspiration for what nazis and talibans did with their victims. But the fluctuations in the relations between Soviet Regime and the church… makes difficult to infer similar conclusions.
The activities of League of Militant Atheists certainly question, or dismantle the allegation of atheism as “nothing to do with the crimes of soviets”. But I still have to make an effort to believe that was the complete opposite assertion could be true.
Since there is no “if” there and this is pretty obviously what my goal is (as I state clearly and repeatedly in the article above), all I can say is “thanks”.
No. As I clearly say, repeatedly, in the article you’re commenting on.
No. As I clearly say, repeatedly, in the article you’re commenting on.
I didn’t say it had a central role. I simply said it had a role. Perhaps you need to read what I actually said again.
You wouldn’t have to make that effort on my account, given that this is nothing like what I say.
@Pepe: “I never knew that kind of consideration of the jews by the nazis”
This is nonsense. During the Stalin period Soviet persecution (including areas that got occupied, like the Baltic states) didn’t show any more consideration than the nazis towards all kinds of groups, including jews when they were targeted. The only difference is that Stalin was smart enough to use religion and nationalism as a tool to mobilize the population for the total war against the nazis from 1941 on.
Within a couple of weeks after the victory in 1945 that persecution began all over again, with the same total lack of consideration as before. There are some books that deal with the subject. I mention Richard Overy’s Russia’s War and Timothy Snyder’s Bloodlands.
Pepe,
You wrote
“In Spanish civil war, many republicans killed catholic and burned churches, but almost all the killers were catholic as well. Spaniards have been and continuous to be religious people …”
IMHO this blurs issues a bit. These Republican killers/arsonists might have been baptised into the Catholic Church (and as such Christians according to church law), they certainly were not motivated by any Catholic idea when they killed priests or burned churches but rather by hatred against the church, regardless of whether these individuals were non-Catholic Christians, religious (a meaningless term IMO) or, as they might very well be, atheists baptized as children.
You also claim that homosexuals were more oppressed under the Soviet Union. I can’t recall any large-scale “Anti-Homosexuality” campaigns or a “Leage of militant Homophobes” or something like that. Also keep in mind, how large a percentage of the population were Christians and how large of a perecentage were homosexuals. (NB, this is of course not to justfify any atrocities against anyone.)
Pepe,
By your comment
“I never knew that kind of consideration of the jews by the nazis, (killing valuable labour force for the war), nor the talibans with other religions in their extreme view of religion contaminating every single aspect of civil life.”
I guess you are referring to the fact that after late 1941, the Nazi German efforts were directed more on killing on Jews than on winning the war in Russia. Generals repeatedly complained about lacking transportation that was instead used to deport Jews to the gas chambers.
While this is true and in stark contrast to Stalin’s policy of ending anti-religious persecution, even using the Orthodox Church for the war-effort (and, lest we forget, refocusing the GULag from punishment/extermination to production), your explanation “anti-religious persecution was not as important to Communists” is not the only one:
Stalin changed his policies as his system was mortally wounded and threatened to collapse. Survival of that system was supreme as, in Stalin’s view, it was the spearhead of liberation of all humanity on their way to a Communist paradise.
Hitler conceived of history as an eternal, Social-Darwinist struggle for survival among races. He had two goals: conquer Lebensraum for “Aryans”/Germans in Russia and kill all the Jews, which he saw as the lowest but also most dangerous race and enemy not only of “Aryans” but of all races.
At the end of 1941, it was clear that Hitler’s goal of conquest had failed. It was not yet obvious to everybody but Hitler knew it. Hence, he switched his focus on his other chief goal. Hitler’s radicalism became apparent in the last days of the war when he point-blank stated that the German race had failed and that the future belonged to the “Eastern races”. So Hitler was so radical in his views that he did not put his own people’s survival supreme.
As for the Taliban, they do not really belong into that whole discussion at all. As extreme as their version of Islam is, they never played in the same ball park as Nazism or Communism being restricted to one country. Also, the Taliban never were in the position (as Stalin and Hitler were) of either compromising on their radicalism or face destruction. The destruction of the Buddha statues were more in the vein of the English Reformation or the French Revolution, removing cultural artefacts deemed contrary to their beliefs.
Tim,
Thank you for this article.
I don’t know if this was deliberate, but your last three articles in the “Great Myths” series don’t show up in the Great Myths post categories when you click the link.
Thanks – now fixed.
Tim,
Great article! It actually connected a couple of dots for me. For a few years, I was a fan of Christopher Hitchens (despite thinking his “god is not Great” book is very shitty) and I wondered why he was an antitheist. I realized it was part of his Marxist worldview. If I am not mistaken, Hitchens was a Marxist for all of his adult life. So, it makes perfect sense that Hitchens would adopt his antitheist and antireligious stances based on his political outlook.
However, your article beings up an uncomfortable question: How do atheists such as you and I respond to people who accuse atheism of horrible crimes against humanity and argue that it is, therefore, wicked? The best that I can personally do is to point out that I am not a Marxist, never have been, and cannot ever see myself being one, so any attempt to damn me for being an atheist is simply guilt by association. How would you respond to such an accusation?
Atheism, per se, can’t be accused of “horrible crimes against humanity”. Certain ideologies that have atheism as a key tenet have been responsible for crimes and for crimes inspired by atheism. But we can say that about all kinds of ideologies, including ones that have, say, Christianity or Buddhism as part of their central ideas. Does this mean all Christians or all Buddhists are therefore guilty or that any form of Christianity or Buddhism or any ideology with Christianity or Buddhism as central motivators is therefore implicated? No, of course not. So, ditto for atheism.
A Marxist may be more closely associated with the crimes of the Soviet Union than any atheist, but even then they could note that Marxist Leninism as interpreted by Stalin or Ceaușescu is not the same thing as Marxism generally. This whole game of trying to besmirch people by association with historical crimes rarely makes any real sense.
@Matthew: “How do atheists such as you and I respond …..”
1. Atheists are not per se morally superior (nor inferior).
2. Deconversions do not make better people.
3. I reject collective responsibility, so I’m not responsible for Soviet cruelties. In exactly the same way modern christians are not responsible for the pogroms that went along with the Crusades.
It’s as stupid to blame atheist me for the Gulag as blaming a quaker for slavery. That’s the price I (happily) pay: I have to oppose many atheists, Hitchens being one of them, who maintain that religion is a main source of evil. Power structures are, whether they are religious or not.
I don’t think your question uncomfortable at all, because I think collective responsibility a serious moral defect.
True, FrankB, though blaming Quakers and Christians in general for slavery is even more absurd.
Hitchen’s originally Marxist and especially Trotskyist views also explain why his comments focus so much on Stalin, as if the whole persecution of religion had started and ended with him. By such claims, Hitchens’s hero Trotsky would be off the hook.
The danger is not in being an atheist. It is in developing a theory explaining why religion exists and what, if anything, should be done about it. In Marxism-Leninism it was that religion, like all other ideas and aspects of culture (except Marxism-Leninism itself) was a product of, and supportive of, class oppression. Me, I think that humans just like to believe silly nonsense, especially in groups, and there’s very little that can or should be done it.
Three general observations:
1. I think D’Souza is a bit strawmanned here, as he said in the quote: “Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness”, suggesting he is open to reason about the reasons for the death toll. (Though I am sure that there some commenters out there who would make the “Mere atheism causes bloodshed” argument.)
2. It is definitely wrong that all the arguments New Atheists bring forth is a response to the “Mere atheism causes bloodshed” argument. In fact, it is the other way around, as even the D’Souza quote shows.
3. While it is true that “Mere Atheists” should not feel any responsibility for the anti-religious atrocities of the Soviet Union (not just under Stalin). However, “New Atheists” cannot use the “it was not done in the name of atheism but in the name of some other ideology” excuse for themselves as they propagate just such an ideology.
PS.
That traditional religions (note the plural) would have amassed the same bloodshed as modern ideologies (including secular communism) is mere speculation.
While it is true that religions provide those bent on killing with an enormous source of energy in their bloody work, so do modern ideologies. However, the more traditional religions are, the more they include certain barriers against violating the “traditional moral order” – modern ideologies that explicitely reject such barriers as unreasonable or unscientific (which both atheist Communism and non-atheist Nazism did) are much freer in their killing sprees, especially if the killing is justified as “one last great effort to create heaven on earth”. Traditional religions – not even Islam – do not have that goal.
I am Russian. And I will say that this text is fundamentally wrong and anti-historical. The persecution of the church was really cruel. If you want, watch O. Budnitsky’s lecture “Repressions against believers on the eve and during the Great Patriotic War.” (If you know Russian)
I have no idea what your comment is supposed to be saying. My article is saying that “the persecution of the church was really cruel”. So how is it “fundamentally wrong and anti-historical”? Your comment makes no sense at all.
I am Russian. And to be honest, communism is a religion. Throughout the history of the USSR, the party dictated such a pseudoscience that oh-oh-oh.
In 1933-34 Lysenko (the famous Soviet / pseudo / scientist), a staunch supporter of Lamarckism (the theory of the inheritance of acquired traits), begins an attack on a then new science – genetics. He claims that no genes exist, and living organisms inherit those traits that they acquired during life (for example, giraffes became long-necked because their ancestors pulled their necks up and stretched them, and this trait was passed on to offspring). It was at this time that genetics, thanks to the discoveries of the American scientist Morgan, began to develop rapidly. In the intra-academic struggle, Lysenko had a powerful trump card – the support of Stalin himself, who, apparently, was also a Lamarckist and, like a devout communist, denied genetics.
The communists, as radical egalitarians, were abhorred by the very idea that heredity (and not the environment) could determine any parameters of a biological organism (including humans). In addition, the very idea that small molecular structures in cells can determine the parameters of a biological organism was recognized as idealistic, non-materialistic.
In 1938, Lysenko became president of the All-Union Academy of Agricultural Sciences named after Lenin, taking the place of the displaced geneticist Vavilov. From that moment, the persecution of genetics began (or, as it was called, Weismannism-Mendelism-Morganism — after the three major biologists, founders of genetics – August Weismann, Gregor Mendel and Thomas Morgan). Genetics was declared a fascist science, many genetics were repressed, among them the outstanding Russian biologist Nikolai Vavilov. After World War II, there was some thaw for geneticists, thanks to the revitalization of international cooperation with Britain and the United States, but this was short-lived. In 1948, during the notorious August session of the All-Union Agricultural Academy, the “Weismanists-Mendelists-Morganists” were finally defeated.
However, Lysenko’s neo-Lamarckism was not the only element of Soviet “Michurin agrobiology.” Another element was the so-called doctrine of the living matter of the old Bolshevik (with medical education) Olga Lepeshinskaya. Lepeshinskaya refuted Virchow’s bourgeois principle that a cell emerges only from a cell. This teaching was called Virchowianism. Instead, the neovitalist theory of living matter was put forward – that unformed protoplasm produces living cells from itself. Thus, the origin of life was also explained – after all, very simple chemical compounds are able to organize themselves freely into cells. Soviet neovitalists pounded seeds in a mortar and then “observed” through a microscope the “self-organization” of living matter.
These two teachings – Lysenko’s neo-Lamarckism and Lepeshinskaya’s neovitalism – made up two parts of the so-called Michurin agrobiology. These concepts dominated Soviet science until 1965. The abolition of the dictatorship of the adherents of this pseudoscientific concept was achieved by nuclear physicists – research in the field of radiobiology (important both for economic and defense purposes), this dogmatism very, very much interfered.
“Michurin agrobiology” suddenly influenced not only agriculture and biology, but also a science that seemed so far from biological problems as astronomy. Lepeshinskaya’s theory postulated the extreme simplicity of the process of the origin of life, the possibility of the origin of life from nothing. While in the West, assumptions about life on other planets of the solar system were something on the verge of extremely bold scientific theories and pseudoscience, Soviet scientists were convinced that since life originates everywhere, then it also exists on other planets. The Soviet astronomer Tikhov from scratch founded a new “science” – astrobotany. Astrobotanists looked at Mars through a telescope and studied the shades of the color of the surface of Mars, made “deep conclusions” about the Martian vegetation. Before the flights of the AMS series “Mars” in the 1960s, the existence of life on Mars was considered almost proven in the USSR, and the question of life on Venus was considered by Soviet scientists to be a “controversial” issue. It is not surprising that later Soviet and post-Soviet people were so greedy for stories about UFOs, aliens and paleocontact!
Those things make Soviet Communism a dogmatic ideology. They do not make it a religion.
I agree, though how do you define a religion?
As I discuss in more detail in my article on religious wars and violence, “religion” is a relatively new concept and a mainly European one. So it’s hard to define clearly and it gets harder the further we get from western forms of religious belief. But when people want to stretch the definition of “religion” so far that it encompasses an ideology that was actively anti-religion, this is getting pretty ridiculous. For Soviet Communism to be a “religion” we have to encompass any ideology that is dogmatic and leads people to believe strange things. That would certainly cover many or (in the opinion of non-believer like me) probably most of what are generally recognised as religions. But it would also cover such a wide range of other ideas and ideologies, including racist systems, capitalism, neo-liberalism and many more. Which means the definition has been stretched beyond the point of utility.
I’d say any definition would need to stay within the bounds of beliefs about deities, the supernatural, the afterlife and the transcendental to make sense as “religion”. Political ideologies don’t fit just because they, like religions, have slogans, iconography and a tendency to accept bad scientific ideas for ideological reasons.
That makes sense. At times I’ve seen some quite broad “functionalist” definitions that basically turn anything into a religion, even stuff like the extreme football fans and money-grubbing, which like you said seems going too far.
Hayek, Mises and Raymond Aaron made the case that Marxism is a religion. It has all the features of a religion and its own metaphysics. Since religions are mutually exclusive Marxism saw Christianity as the religion to supplant. Gramscy in his writings argued for just that when he wrote “Socialism is precisely the religion that must overwhelm Christianity”.
Marxism is a atheist materialistic religion. It is atheistic in the sense that it does not believe in any transcendent reality beyond this existence but it has its own metaphysics on what underpins reality and how this can be changed.
And, as I note in my article above, this broadens out the concept of “religion” so wide that almost any ideology can be defined as “a religion”.
1. Not all ideologies are cults of personality; leninism-stalinism and juche are. They both are offspring of marxism.
2. It’s impossible to draw a sharp line between religion and non-religious ideology, making arguments based upon definitions even less interesting than usual.
3. Still I think it more accurate to say that marxism was modeled after christianity iso putting it in the category religion. It’s just handier imo.
“It has all the features of a religion”
Aha, then reincarnation and worship of ancestors are no religious features. That excludes a lot of people we usually categorize as believers. That or you are simply wrong.
“Socialism is precisely the religion that must overwhelm Christianity”.
This is a meaningless statement without at least a tentative description of what constitutes socialism. It may come to you as a surprise, especially when you’re American (in that country even the current president is called a socialist), but most socialists (ie people who call themselves socialists) reject marxism.
Anyhow, I dare to bet that “socialism overwhelming christianity” was about the last thing catholics like jesuit Juan Luis Segundo and archbishop Oscar Romero strived for. But they did call for a social revolution. Many Brazilians are perfectly capable of combining catholicism and animism. So much for religions being mutually exclusive.
Greetings Tim! I have a question. What are your thoughts on Genetically Modified Skeptic, especially in regard to his history? You have dealt with skeptics before here, notably within this: (https://historyforatheists.com/2022/07/cosmic-skeptic/) Particularly, this video of his (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq8VA_OoKqQ) among other videos of his channel relating to history?
In particular, his videos about the history of Christianity and “baby-eating atheists?”
I’m a bit busy to watch a 45 min video. Does he make any arguments I haven’t already dealt with in the article above?
Just want to share my own gleanings on this topic.1. While Engels called religion evil, I would have thought Marx at least would have said religion was just a super structural reflection of any economic structure where the worker doesnt own his own labour and its product. It’s not a good thing or a bad thing, just a thing whose time has passed. God is the intellectual expression of humanity’s alienated self.
2. Atheism is inherent in Marx’s philosophy. Soviet Marxism’s hostility to religion is fundamental. Blaming this hostility on the Soviet leadership’s political goals as if these can be separated from its ideological roots seems to be working too hard. For totalitarians, any rival world view must ultimately be removed. For Marx, religion would wither away as history removed its infrastructural basis and workers came to own their production. But the Soviets couldn’t wait.
As a Marxist leninist and obviously a Marxist atheist I found this blog very interesting, so to clarify we as Marxist leninist view religion as both a tool of oppression and also a drug the working masses make use if to numb their very real pain. If it were up to us we would strive to use all the state power to both gradually educate the masses and fight against religious superstitions. In this I think we as Marxist can learned from the soviet experience and be less direct when trying to bring about the end of religion, since to us religion is for the masses an effect and not a cause, we do hold that religion will gradually extinguish itself when the material conditions of life reach a sufficient level, and we strive for that, as for other Marxists who hold a religious believe as party members we accept them but we do not support any religious belief, the official party line is materialist without that meaning to be used as a reason exclude members, however we would never accept party lines to promote religion, we are practical in that regard as we understand religion will not be abolished quickly from the minds of the masses. As far a persecution goes, I for one would not persecute religious people unless they participate in counter revolutionary activities, such as expressing opinions against the revolution, the workers state or against Marxism Leninism, but we do advocate a clear separation of church and state. And I don’t weep a second for any so called victims of soviets, the victims of the capitalist regimes which promoted religion, finance it and use it to oppress working class people are in the billions, so for me revolution must be brought about by any means necessary, as soon as possible. I do find objection in the so called *victims of Stalin”, as it is clear the knowledge of the Stalin n era you posses is very superficial, so I do encourage you to use your zeal of history try to dig further into supposed stalinist crimes, which is complete capitalist propaganda, and most of the novels passing as history books on the stalinist period are laughable and don’t stand to rigorous scrutiny.
“I don’t weep a second for any so called victims of soviets”
Good to know – anarchists, social-revolutionaries and social-democrats were the first victims of the bolshevist regime, as early as late december 1917. Your denial reinforces my distrust. Richard Overy eg in Russia’s War and Timothy Snyder’s Blood Lands have documented the bolshivist terror very well.
“I for one would not persecute religious people unless they participate in counter revolutionary activities”
And speaking out against the marxist terror regime always is labeled as a counter revolutionary activity. You’re one of those who’s shoot your former revolutionary allies in the back for the sake of your revolution, in the name of the people – and then go after the religious people.
Marxists are traitors of all revolutions.
Thanks though for putting religious persecution by marxists in the right perspective – you’ll persecute everyone whose perceived as a threat, real or imaginary, atheists and theists alike.
Yeah absolutely, that was my intention to clarify the Marxist leninist position, I wouldn’t execute all, some would be send to prison depending of the severity of the crime, obviously traitors who oppose revolutionary measures must be neutralized, I’m here to do eveything in my power to help end this unjust society, whatever the cost, by any means necessary and I wouldn’t think twice about it, I’m committed to socialism above all. However, it’s laughable your sources are the typical western propagandists. Timothy Snyder even admitted in an article in the times that the stalin era so called victims are a hyper inflated exaggeration. But yeah if you even speak against the revolution you will get the proper punishment, I’m not here for freedom for the exploiters but freedom only for the working class, revolution is not a dinner party and we don’t pretend it is, it’s life or death.
“It turns out that, with the exception of the war years, a very large majority of people who entered the Gulag left alive. Judging from the Soviet records we now have, the number of people who died in the Gulag between 1933 and 1945, while both Stalin and Hitler were in power, was on the order of a million, perhaps a bit more. The total figure for the entire Stalinist period is likely between two million and three million. The Great Terror and other shooting actions killed no more than a million people, probably a bit less.” Timothy Snyder
https://www.nybooks.com/online/2011/01/27/hitler-vs-stalin-who-was-worse/
“Neutralized”. Mate, you are a scary, scary little person. As much as I dislike the effects of Capitalism, if murderous and oppressive doctrinaire fanatics like you being in charge were ever the alternative, I’d be in the fighting resistance against your evil regime.
Only a million people? Oh, well that’s okay then. Jesus fucking Christ.
The biggest prison population exists today in the USA, a country who also imposes the death penalty, whose imperialists wars have killed much more innocent people that all revolutions combined, I don’t see your tears for those victims? I don’t think you’re rational enough to even study let’s say the victims of the French revolution, or the American revolution, all revolutions go through violence but since those revolutions killed in the name of capitlaism I don’t see you complaining about their victims, If you want to make an omelett you must break some Egss. But it’s laughable your false bravado mixed with pathetic sentimentality of some abstract number we aren’t sure it’s even correct , sure you would be out there “fighting”, just like you are “fighting” now I’m sure … You are sitting at home watching the world go to the shitter Tim. You aren’t gonna do nothing, nothing.
Go away and take your weird ranting and murderous ideology with you, loon.
Also As a Marxist leninist just to clear our political position also I wouldn’t hesitate to send all counter revolutionaries including priets or religious anti revolutionaries, to working re education prisons and if death penalty applies to any of their crimes to death as well. However is well know even by anti soviet historians, most people who were sent to gulag survived and were released, and most deaths in gulag were due to bad conditions due to ww2 impact . Which soviet won, soviet liberated nazi death camps. Soviet sacrifices 23 million people to defeat Hitler.
So in no uncertain terms we Marxist leninist are fierce enemies of religion just as a doctor is a fierce enemy of a patient self medicating instead of getting the correct treatment for their illness. However we don’t see religion as bourgeois intellectuals like Dawkins do, we don’t think is a cause, but as Marx pointed out an effect of the capitalist oppression, a drug to numb real pain, so we don’t want to erase the drug but to erase the root cause of the pain which is capitalism. Also religion holds a dual character, is not the same for the working man who uses it as a pain reliever as it is to the elite who use it as a tool of propaganda, exploitation and justification of their parasitic system and of their injustice
“As for the persecution of the churches under Stalin, while he assures his readers he is not trying to “explain or excuse the killing of priests and nuns and the desecration of churches”…”
That’s quite an interesting statement, since it contrasts with something he said in an interview with PBS in 2005 when discussing how Lenin tried to transform Russia in the early years after the Bolsheviks came to power:
“One of Lenin’s great achievements, in my opinion, is to create a secular Russia. The power of the Russian Orthodox Church, which was an abolute warren of backwardness and superstition and evil, is probably never going to recover from what he did to it. ”
https://web.archive.org/web/20060612210516/http://www.pbs.org/heavenonearth/interviews_hitchens.html
He never goes into any detail about what Lenin actually “did to it”, but this article might give some clue about the violence and brutality involved in his anti-religious campaigns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti-religious_campaign_(1921–1928)
The PBS interview was published a little over two years before the publication of God is Not Great, so if we’re being charitable we might say that he was simply unaware at the time of how vicious the early Bolshevik campaigns against the Orthodox Church was and that he later changed his mind about it when he wrote his book. But the more likely explanation is that he’s simply being dishonest when he makes that assurance to his readers and that he did, in fact, admire at least some of the violence, repression and killing and church-desecration carried out by the Soviets.
“Other New Atheists take a different tack and declare that atheism is inherently incapable of driving people to oppress others because only an ideology can do this and atheism is not an ideology…”
I’ll never forget: I came across this “argument” about 13 years ago from a “new atheist” colleague of mine (at that time). We weren’t discussing Soviet atrocities against religion though, it was because he was trying to give a Christian other colleague of ours a hard time about their Christian faith (which they were far from very forward about). And I (me being I guess an “old atheist”) was telling him to pipe-down and to learn about this thing called tolerance. It got to this exact claim that “atheism can’t possible be oppressive because only ideologies can lead to oppression, and atheism is no ideology, it is lack of any such thing”.
My response was simple & blunt: This is utter nonsense, there is no correlation between oppression and any ideology. People oppress things/people simply because they can’t tolerate them, often it is because there’s an ideology that they themselves cannot tolerate.
I think that this was the case with what the Bolsheviks/Soviets did to religion in the USSR.
I’ve found this post and your site really interesting, thank you! My comment is that you cannot do anything in the name of atheism in the way that you can do something in the name of (insert major religion here). It’s a very low bar to qualify as atheist. We don’t have texts, doctrines, commandments to live by. It’s merely the absence of belief in a god and any of the trappings that would fall out of that belief. So any actions that the Soviets took as a result of their atheism were not prescribed by the label. We share nothing, really, except the lack of belief and, commonly, support for science and rational thinking. To commit acts of aggression as a member of some religions can be done with doctrinal support – and as the texts are used over centuries, there will usually be more than one group that has used (or abused) that part of the text and belief system to legitimise their actions. We have no such text, no instructions on how to live and what is encouraged or forbidden, so I don’t see any reference to the centrality of atheism in the Soviet regime as disparaging to atheism/atheists or evidence of any inherent risk. Their actions had no instruction or authority from atheism – there was none to be had.
Sorry, but to say their killing and oppression in the name of their atheism is not identical to any killing and oppression in the name of religion because religions are not like atheism in some respects is not saying much at all. The people they killed and oppressed remain dead and oppressed. In the name of atheism.
I’ve seen this argument from time to time over the years, and it seems to me that it arises from a practical equivocation about the term “atheism”. Strictly, “atheism” just signifies lack of belief in gods, and from that mere privative nothing much follows, in the abstract (unlike a specific religious creed, which may mandate all sorts of things). But in the messy real world, much may follow. If some sort of theism is a strong norm in society, then a public expression of atheism inescapably becomes a positive act of political dissent. And if religion is a key part of an oppressive political/economic system (as the Orthodox Church was one of the props of Tsarist Russia), then some sort of alternative religious theory is likely to form a key plank in the opposition’s platform. For the Bolsheviks, that alternative was not just some other form of Christianity (as we’ve seen in other contexts), but active opposition to all religion — a specifically militant atheism. Take an authoritarian political philosophy that has atheism as a component, give it the reins of power, and you get what we in fact saw: active suppression of believers and their institutions.
Now, to my mind none of this indicts atheism per se, in the same way as Christian atrocities my be taken as indicting Christianity. The latter *in itself* claims to make people virtuous, thus failure to do so tends to discredit Christianity. Atheism _simple_ makes no such claim; so I think it’s fair to say that atrocities in the name of atheism don’t carry the corresponding implication (contra the accusations of the evangelists). It’s only when it becomes part of some larger system that it has these sorts of effects. There is a genuine asymmetry between the cases.
On a bit of a tangent (but relevant to a dominant theme of this blog): in the (messy real world!) context of the current Western “atheist movement”, the idea is linked to issues like sociopolitical secularism, to active anti-religion-ism, and to larger skepticism. In connection with the last, atheism is taken as making people smarter (I used to see such claims on alt.atheism, like 30 years ago). I think one of the take-homes from Tim’s analysis of the Mythicists etc, is that it’s not really all that effective at doing that. Atheism, as a movement, is too committed to the Us vs. Them model, rather than a genuine search after the truth of the world.
Well unfortunately events ~90 years ago have proven your comment incorrect. People DID exterminate other people in the name of atheism (and nothing else) and in rather extreme and brutal manners. Denying it is no less ridiculous than denying the holocaust.
So perhaps you need to realise that “texts, doctrines, commandments to live by” has never actually had anything to do with why & how anyone ever murdered anyone else in the name of anything? And the actual reasons and motivations lie elsewhere?
Oh and P.S. Being atheist has nothing whatsoever to do with supporting “science & rational thinking”. Anecdotally: I have a cousin who is both a science denier, openly lauds his own put-on trust in emotion-motivated thinking and baseless beliefs, and yet is also a very vocal atheist and anti-religion advocate. So there goes your theory. All being atheist means is no belief in any deities.
Your own comment contradicts this extolled support for rational thinking.
There are two different but related things.
Atheism is, strictly speaking, the simple lack of belief in God or other God’s. Period. Yeah, OK.
But there is also anti-theism, the belief that theism (and therefore religion) is not just erroneous or silly, but positively harmful. And therefore some believe that theism/religion should be opposed, perhaps suppressed, until it is eventually abandoned or eradicated.
Not all atheists are anti-theists. Perhaps most aren’t. I don’t think Tim is. Another example is social psychologist Jonathan Haidt, a self-identified atheist who nevertheless argues that the social aspects of religion can be beneficial, and may even be essential, to society.
But all anti-theists, on the other hand, are atheists. Atheism is a necessary precondition for anti-theism.
Strictly speaking, atheism itself may not have killed anybody, but the belief or ideology of anti-theism sure has. Some might see the sharp distinction as a fine line. And I think that many people use “atheism” as shorthand when “anti-theism” is what they really mean. Hence the arguments over whether certain (anti-theistic) killings and other violence are due to “atheism” or not.
Also is it true that mendelian genetics were suppressed in the Soviet Union?
If true did the religious affiliation of Gregor Mendel play any part in such censorship?
No, that seems to be because the concept of genetics went against some principles of Dialectical Materialism. So the Soviets tried to get reality to fit their ideology. It didn’t work out well for them, since crops didn’t care about Marxism.
Thanks.
By the way if I may ask, is there any post WW2 badhistory you plan to cover?
None that springs to mind.
I would like to know the sources for the statements in the quotes, for example Pospielovskys. He was a ukrainian historian in Canada and they where more or less propagandists in the service of ukrainian nationalism.
I don’t have a copy of Pospielovsky’s book to hand, as I used a research library copy when I wrote this article two years ago. But he gave sources for all of the quotes I used. Do you think he made these up? That seems unlikely in a peer reviewed academic work. “They (all Canadian historians?) were more or less propagandists in the service of ukrainian nationalism” also sounds like a dubious reason to doubt his information. Perhaps you have some biases of your own.
They are so band IQ tests as well in the Soviet Union because they were bourgeois
Hi! You mentioned that there have been pre-modern religious totalitarian societies. It appears that your argument is that if they had the same technology and population base of the Soviet Union that they would have a comparable body count, is that right? What would be some of those theocracies that you can name?
What I said was “any examination of regimes where religious ideologies have turned authoritarian shows that they are equally capable of violent and bloodthirsty oppression”. I don’t think that’s a controversial statement. Then I said “Given the resources of the Soviet Union, any pre-modern theocracy would have been every bit as blood-soaked and oppressive.” So I’m saying if there had ever been a true theocracy equivalent to the Soviet Union in its authority and one that had the level of technology and other resources the Soviet Union had, it would have been as terrible as the Soviets were. But this posited theocracy is a hypothetical.
Thanks for the reply! What do you mean by equivalent to the Soviet Union in authority? A similar degree of authoritarian/totalitarian rule?
Yes. And a similar level of enforcement and control. Neither were possible in the Pre-Modern periods of history.
The new atheist defense of when secularists do something bad it proves nothing but when religious people do something bad oh it proves religion is responsible nice retribution error it’s the same fallacy several supremacist groups have when a member of their group does something bad it proves nothing but when a member of another group does something bad it proves the entire group is responsible
Let me point out that there is a tremendous difference between destroying 2000-year old statues which certainly represent historical and anthropological value, and destroying a symbol of oppression, something that was recently constructed, such as the Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow. Even though it may have some artistic significant, the resentment to what it represents, – the old tsarist regime, imperialistic shauvinistic ambitions, and delusional justification of tsar having a divine power. So the argument by Dawkins still stands.
No, actually, it doesn’t. Dawkins didn’t make the distinction you try to crowbar in. He simply said an atheist would never destroy a religious monument. And he was wrong.