The Great Myths 12: Religious Wars and Violence

The Great Myths 12: Religious Wars and Violence

That religion is uniquely prone to violence is a truism anti-theistic atheists assume almost without question. The cliché that more people have died in wars over religion than any other cause is a unassailable dictum among atheist activists, and religious violence is a driving motivation for their zealotry. But, on closer inspection, this idea becomes increasingly incoherent and actually leads several New Atheists into some ethically paradoxical positions. The idea that religion is essentially and particularly violent is a founding myth of the modern nation state, though one with highly dubious historical and philosophical foundations.

9/11

Many commentators have observed that the so-called New Atheism arose at a particular juncture in reaction to a specific event. As some who have objected to (and, actually, misunderstood) the label like to point out, there is nothing especially novel about New Atheism – it simply articulates ideas about religion that have been around for centuries. But “New Atheism” is “new” in the same sense as “New Wave” – not “uniquely original”, but rather “the latest in a sequence”. This particular wave of anti-theist polemics and activism arose in the early 2000s in direct reaction to the events of September 11, 2001. The first chapter of Christopher Hitchens’ 2007 book God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything is entitled “Religion Kills”, and it begins with an anecdote introduced with the words “A week before the events of September 11, 2001 …” (p. 7). The book refers to the terrorist attack on the US on that day four more times, each time using is as a touchstone of religious violence. In his The End of Faith (2004), Sam Harris does much the same thing in his 13 references to 9/11. Richard Dawkins, A.C Grayling, Peter Boghossian and other New Atheist luminaries all regularly refer to 9/11 as the epitome of a key element in their argument against religion: it shows that unfettered religion leads inevitably to violence and this is why religion needs to be at least restricted and, preferably, neutered or even eliminated.

While the motivating event is particular, the sentiment is general and has been a mainstay of arguments against religion for several hundred years; since the eighteenth century at least. It is such a well-worn and widely accepted idea that Hitchens and Harris give examples of religious violence not to substantiate their claim that religion is particularly and uniquely violent, but purely for rhetorical effect – to reinforce their arguments for atheism as the solution to this wholly unquestionable problem. Hitchens details his experiences in Belfast, Beirut, Belgrade and Baghdad to illustrate just how deadly religion inevitably is. Harris asks in exasperation why we do not acknowledge that religion is simply “the most prolific source of violence in our history” (p. 27). No piece of New Atheist polemic is complete without a catalogue of religious violence, both ancient and current. Invoking the John Lennon song, the opening pages of Dawkins’ The God Delusion (2006) invites us to “Imagine”:

Imagine no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no 7/7, no Crusades, no witch-hunts, no Gunpowder Plot, no Indian partition, no Israeli/Palestinian wars, no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, no persecution of Jews as ‘Christ-killers’, no Northern Ireland ‘troubles’, no ‘honour killings’…. no Taliban to blow up ancient statues, no public beheadings of blasphemers, no flogging of female skin for the crime of showing an inch of it

(Dawkins, pp. 1-2)

Again, these lists of religious atrocities have a long pedigree in anti-religious polemic. Voltaire employed them in his works, though perhaps with rather more wit and charm than his modern successors. In his 1763 plea for religious tolerance (but not, it should be noted, for “the end of faith”) old François-Marie Arouet noted just some of the sorrows religion had brought to his native France:

After the death of Francis I – a monarch better known for his amours and misfortunes than for his cruelties – the execution of a thousand heretics caused the persecuted sect to take to arms. …. They imitated the cruelties of their enemies: nine civil wars filled France with carnage; and a peace more deadly than war led to the massacre of St. Bartholomew’s Day. …. The League assassinated Henry III through a Dominican monk and Henry IV through a monstrous former Cistercian monk. Some claim that humanity, indulgence, and liberty of conscience are horrible things; but could they have produced calamities such as these?

(“Voltaire, “Treatise on Tolerance” (trans. Jonathan Bennett 2017)

Voltaire invokes the Reformation, the French civil wars of the sixteenth century and the Wars of Religion of the seventeenth century as evidence that religious intolerance leads inevitably to violence. But his more recent successors take this much further. For Harris, Hitchens et. al. the problem is not simply religious intolerance but religion per se. And the solution is not merely rather more tolerance all round from everyone, but more substantial measures. Victor Stenger ends his The New Atheism: Taking a Stand for Science and Reason (2009) with the declaration that religion “is absurd and dangerous and we look forward to the day, no matter how distant, when the human race finally abandons it” (p. 244). A.C. Grayling hopes this eschatology will be realised soon. He assures believers that secularisation is very much to their advantage, but he too is eager for religion’s demise:

In a truly secular world, one where religion has withered to the relative insignificance of astrology, tarot card divination, health-promotion based on crystals and magnets and other marginal superstition-involving outlooks, an ethical outlook which can serve everyone everywhere …. will at last be possible. That outlook is humanism.

(Grayling, The God Argument: The Case Against Religion and for Humanism, Bloomsbury, 2013, p. 138)

So Grayling’s secularism is essentially one where religion is given room to quietly die. Peter Boghossian believes this death needs to be helped along by atheistic “street epistemologists” – essentially atheist evangelists – who “intervene” with religious people they come across in day to day life to help them understand how wrong they are – see Boghossian’s helpful evangelical tips in his A Manual for Creating Atheists (Pitchtone, 2013, pp.57-9; 112-17).

But the spectre of religion’s inherent and particular tendency for violence means that some New Atheists go much further than relegating religion to the margins or evangelising it out of existence. Harris thinks sometimes things need to go much further still:

Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense. This is what the United States attempted in Afghanistan, and it is what we and other Western powers are bound to attempt, at an even greater cost to ourselves and to innocents abroad, elsewhere in the Muslim world. We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas.

(Harris, pp. 52-3)

At least Harris has the faintest glimmering of self-awareness that he acknowledges this “may seem an extraordinary claim”. He is stating that religion is, in at least some cases, so intolerant that tolerant people cannot tolerate it. And he declares that some religion has such an inherent tendency to spill blood that the only way to combat it is to spill blood. Harris has decided that the intolerance and violence of religion must be met with intolerance and violence. And he has little to no cognisance of the irony here.

He is not alone. Hitchens’ politics were left wing and progressive for most of his life, but his anti-religious zealotry, particularly after 9/11, led him to support the disastrous invasion of Iraq in 2003. War, he argues, is justified when it is a just war. In one of many such premature declarations of victory in a war that dragged on for years and resulted in predicatable chaos and suffering long after, Hitchens lauded Bush’s invasion and hailed its “success” as a triumph of secularism over religion:

Secularism is not just a smug attitude. It is a possible way of democratic and pluralistic life that only became thinkable after several wars and revolutions had ruthlessly smashed the hold of the clergy on the state. 

(Hitchens, “Bush’s Secularist Triumph”, Slate, Nov. 9, 2004)

War is good when Hitchens says it is good. Harris spends many pages fulminating against the irrational torture of suspected witches (Harris, p. 88 ff), but gives what he considers perfectly rational justifications for the torture of suspected terrorists (pp. 192-99). Torture is good when Harris says it is good. Harris takes this “the ends justify the means” utilitarianism to a certain type of conclusion when he decides that the vast dangers posed by some religion’s intolerance and irrationality can perhaps be cured by the tolerant and rational application of thermonuclear warheads:

There is little possibility of our having a cold war with an Islamist regime armed with long-range nuclear weapons. …. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime—as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day—but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe.

(Harris, pp. 128-9)

To paraphrase the apocryphal Vietnam Era justificiation for extreme violence, “we had to nuke the believers in order to save them.”

That New Atheist rhetoric could get to this level of bizarre hypocrisy is remarkable, but to an extent it is explicable. It is an outgrowth of a series of historical myths with their roots in the eighteenth century and the establishment of the European nation state as the primary institution of the modern world, at least until very recently. It is based on several ideas: (i) that there is a distinct social category called “religion”, (ii) that “religion” is inherently and distinctively inclined to intolerance and violence and (iii) that the nation state and its governmental institutions are the best way to hold this violence in check by reducing religion to the private sphere (or supressing it altogether). These claims are justified by reference to history, but the historical bases for them are both outdated and highly dubious.

Crusades

Holy War

All discussions of religious violence have to mention the Crusades. The New Atheists usually gesture toward them rather than discuss them in any detail, seeing them as the epitome of religious violence and so needing no elucidation. Dawkins mentions them on the very first page of The God Delusion and then repeatedly throughout. Harris and Stenger mention them in passing in catalogues of religion’s violent ills (see, for example, Stenger, God and the Folly Of Faith, Prometheus, 2012, pp. 254-5). Hitchens gives a summary of his understanding of the subject in his chapter “Religion Kills”:

[T]he Crusades, when a papal army set out to recapture Bethlehem and Jerusalem from the Muslims, incidentally destroying many Jewish communities and sacking heretical Christian Byzantium along the way, and inflicted a massacre in the narrow streets of Jerusalem, where, according to the hysterical and gleeful chroniclers, the spilled blood reached up to the bridles of the horses.

(Hitchens, p. 9)

Like most of Hitchens forays into history, this one is heavy on rhetoric, light on details and slightly garbled. He seems to be giving an account of the First Crusade (1096-1099 AD), but works in the sack of Constantinople, which happened a century later in the Fourth Crusade (1202-1204 AD). This is a little like saying the D-Day Landings were a prelude to the Battle of Waterloo, but near enough is good enough when it comes to history for Hitchens. He also notes the tale of “spilled blood … up to the bridles of the horses”, though it is not clear if he actually thinks this should be taken as a literal event or just gleeful hysteria from the “hysterical and gleeful chroniclers”. Plenty of other modern commentators take this story and its variants very literally. No less than historians Karen Armstrong and Arthur Goldschmidt and former US President Bill Clinton have assured various audiences that the Crusaders waded up to their ankles or to their knees in blood after the massacre that followed the fall of Jerusalem in 1099. Thomas F. Madden traces the origins of this story and how it grew in the telling in the various sources in his paper “Rivers of Blood: An Analysis of One Aspect of the Crusader Conquest of Jerusalem in 1099” (Revista Chilena de Estudios Medievales, No.1, 2012, pp. 26-37). Madden also has some macabre tongue-in-cheek fun by calculating the amount of blood that would need to be spilled for even the less ludicrous versions of the story to be true and arriving at a figure of approximately three million exsanguinated corpses; which is about one hundred times the entire population of eleventh century Jerusalem.

Of course, the stories of Crusaders wading in blood are clearly not meant to be taken literally, but they do show the very religious nature of this war and its violence. The claim that the blood of massacred Muslims in their last stand at the Al-Aqsa Mosque was up to the bridles of the Crusaders’ horses (“usque ad frenos equorum“) comes from Raymond of Aguilers – the chaplain to Count Raymond of Saint Gilles and a priest who was present at the fall of Jerusalem. A version of this claim was also made in the letter the Crusade leaders sent to Pope Paschal II in September 1099, informing him of the Crusade’s (to them) miraculous success. But the Biblically-literate clerics of the eleventh century would all have understood the allusion – Revelation 14:20 reads “… And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the wine press, as high as a horse’s bridle, for a distance of about two hundred miles”. In the Vulgate the Latin reads exactly as in Raymond’s account: “usque ad frenos equorum“. No-one was taking this literally.

But they were taking it religiously. The lurid imagery of the various versions of this “wading in blood” story is making a point about divine justice and the cleansing of the holy places with the blood of the unrighteous. Modern people would (I hope) find this fairly abhorrent, but medieval clerics and knights were not modern people. There has been a tendency in much modern analysis of the Crusades to the Holy Land to downplay or at least modify the idea that they were primarily religious in motivation; in part because the idea of a holy war is so alien to us. There was a tendency in twentieth century analysis to react against pious and romantic conceptions of the Crusades by explaining that they were “really” driven by base motives. This reappraisal was led and substantially shaped by Sir Steven Runciman’s three volume A History of the Crusades (1951-54), which debunked the earlier lofty views of the Crusades and depicted them as barbarian invasions of the superior Byzantine and Islamic cultures of the east. In this view, the Crusaders were motivated more by land and loot than faith and the Papacy was more interested in expanding its power and influence than any pious motives.

This view has been popularly accepted, largely because it plays into many modern prejudices, and can be seen reflected in popular culture, such as in the Ridley Scott movie Kingdom of Heaven (2005), where the Crusaders are mainly bloodthirsty oafs and the clergy mostly scheming weasels. More recent scholarship, however, has tempered these views considerably. Most historians now agree that the Papacy actually had no plan to expand eastward, let alone start a religious-military movement, so the idea that the Crusades were launched to increase its power is mostly baseless. Work by Christopher Tyerman and Jonathan Riley Smith has also largely debunked the idea that seizing land or profiting from loot was a primary or even a major motivation. In fact, going on crusade was more likely to bankrupt someone than make them rich and most Crusaders already had land back in Europe and, having fulfilled their Crusading vows, were eager to get back to it. The Crusader kingdoms of “Outremer” consistently suffered from a manpower shortage and ultimately collapsed precisely because most Crusaders actually did not want to settle down in the occupied lands of the east and generally went home as soon as they could.

A slightly different view of the “real” motives for the eastern Crusades comes from some Christian apologists and right wing commentators, particularly in the context of recent Islamic terrorism and post-9/11 military excursions. In this reading, the Crusades were not barbaric invasions of the Islamic world and proto-colonial occupations of the Middle East. Rather, they were entirely justified defensive wars in the face of Muslim encroachment on Europe. Christian convert, Rodney Stark, tries to make this case in his God’s Battalions: The Case for the Crusades (2009), where he projects a kind of “Bush Doctrine” onto the Crusades, whereby European Christendom was under assault by “Islam” and so decided to “fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them here”. Stark’s case does not square at all with the evidence however, and is a classic case of bad history shaped by modern political and ideological biases.

The fact is that, no matter how odd it may seem to moderns or uncomfortable it may be for some Christians, the Crusades were, in fact, primarily a religious phenomenon. Jay Rubenstein’s excellent study Armies of Heaven: The First Crusade and the Quest for Apocalypse (Basic Books, 2011) argues the origin of Crusades is best understood in the context of medieval popular apocalyptic thought. This goes a very long way toward explaining how a religion based on the distinctly unwarlike texts of the New Testament inspired a succession of holy wars and why Urban II’s sermon at Clermont in 1095, which aimed only at stirring some western knights to support the Byzantines against the Seljuk Turks, unleased an unprecedented popular mass movement which, at times, the Papacy and the aristocracy found difficult to control.

The key point here is, despite attempts at arguing otherwise, the Crusades were primarily and fundamentally religious. Similarly, there are plenty of other examples of wars, pogroms, persecutions, violent suppressions etc. which were and are also primarily and fundamentally religious. Few of these things are only religious in their inspiration or motivation – few to no historical events have simply one cause, except in the minds of the simple – but we should be clear that religion can, has and does, on occasion, inspire violence. But while this fact can furnish anti-theists with plenty of examples for their catalogues of religious atrocities, it is definitely not sufficient to sustain the argument that religion is somehow especially and uniquely violent, and more so than other motivating ideas and ideologies. As William T. Cavanaugh puts it in his provocative but carefully-argued book The Myth of Religious Violence: Secular Ideology and the Roots of Modern Conflict (Oxford, 2009):

There is plenty of important empirical work to be done on the violence of certain groups of self-identified Christians, Hindus, Muslims, etc., and there are no grounds for exempting their beliefs and practices from the causal factors that produce violence. …. Where [these arguments] fail is in trying to separate a category called religion with a peculiar tendency toward violence from a putative secular reality that is less prone to violence.

There is no reason to suppose so-called secular ideologies such as nationalism, patriotism, capitalism, Marxism and liberalism are any less prone to be absolutist, divisive and irrational than belief in, for example, the biblical God.

(Cavanaugh, pp. 54-5)

This is the “myth” of Cavanaugh’s title – not that religion can be violent, but that it is uniquely and particularly so. The New Atheists do not bother to even examine this latter claim, they simply assume it. But closer inspection shows it to be deeply dubious and ultimately impossible to sustain.

Religious Studies

The Invention of Religion

Part of the problem for any argument that religion is fundamentally and especially prone to violence is the fact that “religion” is a remarkably slippery thing to define. For many people it is a little like good art – they do not know exactly how to describe it but they know it when they see it. Unfortunately, anyone who wants to make an argument about the inherent violence of religion needs to do better than that, and here is where things get tricky.

Definitions of “religion” generally fall into two broad categories – substantivist definitions and functionalist ones. Substantivist definitions of religion look at the focus of religious belief, defining religions as being oriented toward “the gods”, “the divine” or, more broadly, “the transcendent”. Unfortunately this fairly traditional approach usually takes a Western idea of religion – i.e. the sort of things Muslims, Christians and Jews believe and do – as its template and the further one gets from Western ideas and practices the less useful this measure becomes. This has led to more recent attempts at defining religion by what it does and how it works. But these functionalist definitions then become so broad or fuzzy that they can encompass almost any ideology or even any abstraction at all that people care enough about to motivate them to do anything. So the first set of definitions is too narrow, and struggles to find way to sensibly include many forms of Buddhism or traditions such as Shintoism, let alone multiple traditional indigenous traditions that do not fit into the Western template neatly or even at all. While the second is too broad, and finds ways to corral most things we would think of as “religion”, but in the process also rounds up everything from Marxism, to nationalism to a belief in the superior goodness of liberal democracy. So neither serve the purposes of anyone who tries to argue “religion” is particularly and especially violent very usefully.

Not that the anti-theist polemicists bother to actually define “religion” with any rigor, if at all. Harris provides no definition of the term and just claims that religion is the cause of most woes and violence in the world and that this can be substantiated by “a glance at history, or at the pages of any newspaper” (p. 12). His various examples include, of course, the usual religious suspects, but also include Stalinism and Maoism as “political religions”. As Cavanaugh observes:

[Harris] does not consider the possibility that Western political religions, such as American civil religion, might qualify as religion, for that would confound his neat dichotomy between liberal reason and religious irrationality.

(Cavanaugh, p. 212)

So it is only political ideologies that Harris does not like which he includes in his vague parameters, not things he is trying to fence off as being legitimate in ways “religion” is not. This gets particularly thorny for him when he turns to justifying torture, war and even nuclear first strikes in the name of his favoured ideologies.

Hitchens has much the same problem. He too does not bother to define religion, but when he turns to examples he also includes Stalinism and Maoism. Even more strangely, he includes the Baathist ideology of Saddam Hussein’s Iraqi regime, despite the Iraqi Baath Party being a secularist party with socialist leanings founded by a Christian and open to all people, religious or otherwise. Saddam had been tolerated by western powers for decades partially because he kept radical Islam and political clerics in check, often by the most brutal of methods. But Hitchens seems happy to include Iraqi Baathism because, like Stalin, Saddam adopted some religious trappings when it became politically expedient to do so. Though Hitchens’ main motivation is probably his own very vocal justifications for the 2003 toppling of Saddam’s regime.

Hitchens’ reasoning gets even more tangled when he turns to arguing that the totalitarian regimes of Hitler and Stalin were “religious” precisely because they were totalitarian. To demand total control of people’s lives and have them submit totally to a leader, state or ideal is what religions have done down the centuries, therefore, according to Hitchens, any ideology that does these things is religious. But this is a clumsy attempt at a functionalist definition of religion and far a better conclusion to his argument is that, actually, it is not only religions that do these things – other ideologies can do them as well. Like Harris, Hitchens is shaping his definitions to fit his ideological preferences and doing a bad job of it.

This gets Hitchens into some odd tangles. He does not like Saddam’s Baathism, so he tries to rope this secularist and socialist ideology into “religion”. On the other hand, he does rather like Martin Luther King’s moral teachings, so he has to wrangle this devout Baptist pastor away from Christianity on the flimsy grounds that his non-violence is contrary to Hitchens’ conception of the vengeful God of the Bible. Apparently King’s own conception of that God is not relevant here, and so Hitchens can thus boldly declare that he was “in no real as opposed to nominal sense … a Christian” (p. 61). Hitchens’ definition of “religion” is endlessly flexible.

The whole concept of something called “religion” that is distinct from secular ideas and ideologies is actually remarkably recent and distinctively western. This means that it is not only a difficult concept to define, but it is also very difficult to treat “religion” as a constant in all human cultures across time. The word derives from the Latin religio, but both that word and its later derivatives have changed markedly in meaning over the centuries before eventually arriving at its modern manifestation. There is no word in the cultures of ancient Greece, Egypt, India, China, Japan or Mesoamerica which fits the modern conception of “religion”. And the Latin word our term derives from does not actually fit it either. To the Romans, religio did not refer to a set of beliefs, ideas, teachings or dogmas. It referred to a powerful obligation to perform an action, particularly to renew a bond or confirm a link. This means it often was used to refer to the ancient obligation to worship the gods in particular ways, but it was not confined to this. It applied to a wide range of social and cultural obligations or actions that were venerable and so proper and fitting, many or even most of which a modern person would not regard as “religious” at all.

This means that when Augustine wrote his treatise De Vera Religione (usually translated as “Of True Religion” ) in the late fourth century, he was not maintaining that Christianity was the true “religion” and other “religions” were untrue. He was defining what he regarded as proper worship. He argued that any worship that focuses on created things – idols, animals, nature etc. – rather than the Creator was not proper worship or true religio. Naturally, as a Christian, he regarded the worship of the Trinity the only true religio, but while an earlier Roman like Cicero would have disagreed with this conclusion, he would have agreed with Augustine’s use of the key word. For both, religio in this context referred to the focus of practices, not beliefs.

In medieval Christian usage this Roman meaning became obscure and the word was rarely used at all. The exception was its use to refer to the various kinds of monastic rule or orders. This is its meaning in its earliest recorded usage in English (c. 1200), defined in the Oxford English Dictionary as meaning “a state of life bound by monastic vows”. This is why members of monastic orders are referred to even today as being “religious clergy” while non-monastic, diocesan clerics are “secular clergy” – terminology which is puzzling to many, given the modern meaning of those words. By the later Middle Ages the various orders – Benedictines, Dominicans, Franciscans etc. – were referred to as “religions”.

The process whereby religio became “religion” was a very gradual one, beginning with the Platonists Nicolas of Cusa (1401-1464) and Marsilio Ficino (1433-1499), who both presented Muslim, Jewish and Christian worship (religio) as all inspired by the same universal divine impulse, though with the Christian form as the best and closest to God’s ideal. This is still not too far from the medieval conception found in, say, Aquinas, but it provided a stepping stone to conceptions of religio in the debates of the Reformation that not only made it a universal impulse but also very much a matter of doctrine and belief rather than practice. As the various Christian sects and churches of Europe defined themselves by increasingly codified lists of doctrines, “religion” began to emerge from religio as something with hard and clear edges and, increasingly, ones defined by what you thought rather than how you worshipped.

The Reformation saw some call for greater toleration of varied beliefs, which began to emphasise the idea that “religion” was a universal human instinct. In his 1624 book De Veritae, Edward, Lord Herbert of Cherbury (1583-1648) presented an early form of Deism and defined five essential beliefs found in all religion: (i) Belief in a deity, (ii) Worship of the deity, (iii) That virtue and piety combined are the best form of worship, (iv) Rejection of our sins, (v) Punishment or reward after death. Like all later definitions of religion that try for universality, Herbert’s clearly falls well short. But his ideas were heavily influential on Descartes and John Locke (1632-1704). It is in Locke’s work that we start to see the – to us – commonly understood idea of a clear and hard division between the private, internal, belief-based “religion” and a public, external, political and non-religious secular sphere. For Locke, religious ideas cannot be settled by public authority and so are and have to remain matters of private conscience.

So here we finally arrive at an idea of “religion” which is recognisable to us. It is private and individual, but also universal and trans-temporal. And it is also quite distinct from civil, political, mercantile and worldly affairs – or at least, it should be. This conception would be very odd to anyone from a late medieval society and totally alien to Augustine or Cicero. It also arose in a specific European context in reaction to the upheavals of the Reformation, the threat of the Ottoman Empire and the wars of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries which we still call “the Wars of Religion”. This is why this very modern and very European conception seems so “normal” to us, despite not actually fitting most of human history or most of the world beyond Europe.

Wars of Religion

The “Wars of Religion”

The wars that wracked Europe in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries – from the civil wars in France from 1562-98 through the Thirty Years War (16-18-48) and up to the English Civil War (1642-51) and its aftermaths – occupy a central place in the concept of religious war and violence. These have long been dubbed “the Wars of Religion” and held up as the quintessential example of what happens when religion’s unique tendency toward violence and oppression is unchecked. This idea has a long pedigree and actually began as early as Spinoza, but was shaped by Hobbes and Locke and given polemical expression by Gibbon and Voltaire.

As a result, it is a truism that the Reformation broke the domination of Catholicism but also unleashed the pent up violence of religious disputes and it was only the assertion of political control by the liberal nation state and the political marginalisation of religion that controlled this chaos caused by the clashing of doctrinal absolutism. This is what Hitchens is invoking when he talks about “several wars and revolutions [that] ruthlessly smashed the hold of the clergy on the state”. It is also the example that he, Harris and other anti-theist activists have most in mind when they not only warn against the dangers of religion, but also justify violence and military action against Islamic nations and groups, since they are the modern manifestation of “the hold of the clergy on the state”. So it is right and good that modern, liberal, secular states act to contain and curtail their inevitable barbarism.

The idea that modern secular liberal states have their origin in the eventual political solution to the problem exemplified by the Wars of Religion is so well accepted that it is repeated without question in most contemporary political theory, with Cavanagh providing multiple examples in his analysis (pp. 130-41). Quentin Skinner’s summary in his The Foundations of Modern Political Thought (Cambridge: 1978) is typical:

[T]he religious upheavals of the Reformation made a paradoxical yet vital contribution to the crystallizing of the modern, secularized concept of the State. For as soon as the protagonists of the rival religious creeds showed they were willing to fight each other to the death, it began to seem obvious to a number of politique theorists that, if there were to be any prospect of achieving civic peace, the powers of the State would have to be divorced from the duty to uphold any particular faith.

(p. 352)

In his Leviathan (1651), Hobbes had written of the inherent violence of humanity’s natural state and of “the war of all against all”, proposing the benign commonwealth of the nation state as the solution to this natural chaos. The inevitable sectarian violence of the Wars of Religion and the secular liberal nation state as their ultimate solution is an extension of this idea. This means the concept of the secular, liberal nation state has its roots deep in this conception of Early Modern History.

That conception is based on two widely-held ideas about the Wars of Religion. Firstly, that the combatants opposed each other primarily and fundamentally because of religious differences and intolerance, with any political, economic or social causes being at least secondary if not insignificant. Secondly, the modern nation state was the solution to the wars and the agent of their end, not their cause. But modern reappraisals of these conflicts have cast serious doubt on both of these assumptions, to the point where neither are able to be strongly sustained.

To begin with, if the Reformation was supposed to have unleashed the violent forces inherent in religious differences, it is very strange that it took about three decades to do so. The first war usually cited as one of the Wars of Religion is the Schmalkaldic War of 1546-47, between the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V and the Lutheran Schmalkaldic League. Not only did it take Charles many years to decide to attack any Protestants, but he had spent most of those years at war not with any Protestant princes, but with the Pope. As Richard Dunn points out, “Charles V’s soldiers sacked Rome, not Wittenberg, in 1527” (The Age of Religious Wars 1559-1689, Norton, 1970, p. 6). Charles was far more interested in the long struggle with the Papacy for control of Italy and control over the Church in the German principalities than Protestantism. And even the Schmalkaldic War was hardly some neat Catholic versus Protestant “religious war”: several Protestant princes joined the emperor against the League, indicating that it was more about power and control than doctrine.

And this is the pattern we see across the so-called Wars of Religion. Catholic France allied with German Protestant princes against the Catholic Charles V in 1552, while Catholic German princes sat back and watched. France allied with the Muslim Turks against the Holy Roman Empire in 1525: which saw a Catholic ruler fighting another Catholic with Islamic assistance. The Pope withdrew forces from Germany in 1547, fearing that Charles V’s military successes against rebellious Protestants would make him too strong to deal with. In 1556 Pope Paul IV went to war against another Catholic monarch; Philip II of Spain.

The French civil wars of the sixteenth century are traditionally seen as conflicts between the Catholic majority and the Huguenot minority over religious differences. In reality, we see nobles happily switching sides as the fortunes of war shifted and plenty of examples of Catholic and Protestant nobles cooperating to maintain the rights of the nobility over the increasing centralising power of the monarchy. Such alliances were also found among the commoners, with Catholic and Protestant peasants uniting to resist abuses by both the nobility and the crown. In Agen in 1562, Catholic peasants joined their Huguenot compatriots in rebellion against the Catholic baron Francois de Fumel, seized the lord from his chateau and beheaded him. There were similar revolts where Catholic and Protestant commoners made a common cause in Pont-en-Roians (1578), Roissas (1579), the Vivarais (1580) and many other areas.

When we get to the piece de resistance of the Wars of Religion, the Thirty Years War, the image of one denomination battling another over doctrinal differences became even more endlessly muddled. The nominally Catholic Imperial army included several Protestant generals and many Protestant soldiers. The war was increasingly sustained by mercenary companies whose allegiance was to the highest bidder, regardless of confession. Ernst von Mansfield originally worked for the Catholic Spanish and then switched to Lutheran Fredrick V, before switching sides several more times. Sweden’s king Gustavus Adolphus is often depicted as the great champion of the Protestants, but was often seen as an invader by both Protestants and Catholics in Germany – he massacred Lutheran peasants who tried to drive out the Swedes in November 1632. Cardinal Richelieu made a treaty with the Swedes in 1631 and the latter half of the War was effectively a struggle between France and the German Empire – both Catholic. In 1635 Catholic Spanish troops attacked Trier and captured the Catholic archbishop-elector, with France subsequently declaring war on Spain – again, both Catholic. In 1635 the Protestant principalities of Brandenburg and Saxony signed the Peace of Prague with the emperor and their armies joined the Imperial forces to fight the Protestant Swedes. Meanwhile the Pope, far from backing the Imperial champions of Catholic Europe, gave his blessing to the French-Swedish alliance. And this is just a small selection of examples of how this war was clearly not some Catholic versus Protestant struggle over religious belief.

This is not to say that religion was not a factor, that doctrinal disputes were not often the inciting element that began these conflicts or that both sides did not use religious propaganda to inflame and motivate their troops and supporters. But the examples above cannot be dismissed as mere exceptions. The switching of sides, shifting alliances and multiple examples of armies of different confessional backgrounds uniting against a common enemy or kingdoms of the same faith turning on each other shows that, while religion was a factor in these conflicts, it was clearly not the factor. Anything more than the most cursory reading of the wars of the sixteenth and seventeenth century shows that they were driven by social, political, territorial and economic factors as much or more than anything religious.

This means the equally simplistic narrative that the rise of the secular, liberal nation state was a response to and therefore solution to the Wars of Religion is clearly a dubious one. These wars were primarily nation states jockeying for supremacy while also consolidating their new forms of authority and economic strength. The English Civil War was sparked, in part, by a Parliamentary party scandalised by a king who seemed overly “Popish”, but at its heart it was a struggle between a newly and increasingly absolutist monarchy seeking to centralise its power and a Parliament fighting for a much older form of distributed authority. This pattern can actually be seen across Europe, and it pre-dates both the Wars of Religion and the Reformation.

More centralised nation states had been rising across Europe since the later Middle Ages, driven by the economic boom of the later medieval period and by the influx of wealth from the New World and other long distance trade and colonisation. Long before the Reformation, these newly rich and powerful nations began a process of the transfer of much of the Church’s power to the state. Looked at this way, Luther’s Ninety-Five Theses are not so much the beginning of the Reformation but rather an incident within this already accelerating process. It is interesting to note that the Reformation only took hold where it was backed by the state and it did not take hold where it was resisted by the state. Closer examination of this shows that the states that backed the Reformers tended to be ones which had not managed to wrest political independence and economic benefit from its local Church (e.g. England, where the Church had remained rich and politically powerful), while the states that resisted the Reformation were ones where the Church had already increasingly been suborned to royal domination and economically weakened (e.g. France and particularly Spain, where the Church had in many respects become an instrument of royal policy).

This means both the Catholic and the Protestant spheres emerged from the seventeenth century with either a Protestant national church firmly in the hands of the king or the supposedly “universal” Catholic Church locally dependant on royal protection, with the reluctant acquiescence of popes not wanting to see more kingdoms turn Protestant. At the same time older, medieval systems of distributed authority and economic power had increasingly been reshaped or simply marginalised and replaced with more centralised state authority. The division of the realm into secular and religious spheres, the consignment of religion to a matter of personal conscience and the increasing removal or dilution of religious institutions’ political authority was all part of this process. It was not wise and noble kings and politicians realising that religion was uniquely dangerous and so had to be neutralised. It was a growing and increasingly powerful state authority reshaping how everything worked and doing so to its advantage.

This means the Wars of Religion were actually these states jostling for individual benefit and supremacy, thanks to an influx of wealth combined with a revolution in military technology and organisation. Their secularisation was a function of religious institutions being neutralised or marginalised. And any liberalism and democracy came much, much later and as a result of economic and social forces that had little to do with religion.

So the “Wars of Religion” were, actually, not wars of religion. They were certainly not the salutary lesson in unchecked religious impulse of common imagining. And the secular, liberal nation state did not arise as a solution to the problem of religious violence. Rather, the rise of the nation state was the primary cause not only of these wars, but also of the Reformation and its aftermath.

Four Horsemen

The Central Myths

The secular, liberal nation state, therefore, has its roots deep in the myth of religious violence. Again, it should be emphasised that this is not the idea that religions can be violent or that religion can inspire violence – they clearly can and obviously sometimes do. But the myth is that religion is particularly and uniquely violent, and so must be contained, curtailed, marginalised and, preferably, eliminated. This myth is a central assumption in most current anti-theistic argument. And it is no coincidence that the so-called New Atheism that still motivates most anti-theism today arose in the early 2000s; in a direct response to a religious movement by non-state actors striking the dominant nation state at the height of its post-Cold War supremacy.

It is also no coincidence that this myth arose in the eighteenth century and was reinforced into a certain dogmatic force in the nineteenth century as one of several “historical” founding myths of the Western nation state and its status as the best and, in fact, the “normal” way of ordering human affairs. Like the myth of “the Dark Ages” and the tangle of myths about the rise of science, it is a foundational story in the establishment of this model of social, political and economic organisation. So it is hardly surprising that it would be invoked so forcefully by the New Atheists when the 9/11 attacks seemed to threaten this model. Nor is it remarkable that people like Harris and Hitchens would use it to justify a response – military action, torture and even a nuclear option – wielded by Western nation states against the Islamic “other”.

This is why the arguments of these polemicists have to slip and slide around making any clear definition of “religion”, so they can include things they do not like (e.g. Baathism, communism) but exclude things they do like (liberal democracy, capitalism, some forms of nationalism). It is also why a tension quickly emerged between the progressive politics of many atheists and the rather politically staid and even conservative tendencies of the New Atheist agenda. This is why what was at one point called the “Atheist Movement” has increasingly descended into political bickering between a progressive wing (called “Woke” or “Social Justice Warriors” by their opponents) and a conservative opposition (called “Alt-Right” or just “Nazis” by the others). New Atheism was always a political enterprise.

This is not to say that secularism, liberalism or a separation of Church and State are therefore wrong or bad ideas – I happen to think all of them are very good things. But it does mean that the historical underpinnings of many arguments for them are, at best, distinctly wobbly. The trite claim that “more people have died in wars over religion than any other cause” is too simplistic and glib to be anything other than a weak cliché. No war has a single cause and not even overtly religious wars like the Crusades were only about religion. Even so, the Encyclopedia of Wars (Alan Axelrod, Charles Phillips ed.s, 2004) lists 1,763 historical conflicts and only classifies 123 of them (6.98%) with religion as their primary cause. Religion is not uniquely and especially prone to violence: no more so than any other motivating ideology or idea. Humans are eminently capable of finding reasons for violence and religion is not some special case that requires particular or particularly extreme counter-measures.

Grayling and Dawkins may fondly imagine a world where there is “no religion” and think it would be a better place. Personally, I think this is a naïve fantasy and that the sum total of happiness and misery, stability and turmoil and peace and war would be about the same as now and the same as it ever has been. History tells us this, at least.

Further Reading

William T. Cavanaugh, The Myth of Religious Violence: Secular Ideology and the Roots of Modern Conflict (Oxford, 2009) – I would like to acknowledge my debt to Cavanaugh’s book in my writing of this article and cannot recommend it highly enough.

Borden W. Painter, The New Atheist Denial of History: Hijacking the Past in the Name of Reason (Palgrave Macmillan, 2014)

Nathan Johnstone, The New Atheism, Myth, and History: The Black Legends of Contemporary Anti-Religion (Palgrave Macmillan, 2018)

151 thoughts on “The Great Myths 12: Religious Wars and Violence

  1. The bad history you dismantled here is taken as gospel by apologists like Dillahunty, Aron Ra Nelson, Rationality ™, Genetically Modified Skeptic ™, and Holy Koolaid, in particular and their impressionable, zealous [I’m tempted to say religious] followers. The complexities and nuances of religion and history are entirely lost on them. Religion is indeed a double-edged sword but people like that can’t let go of the net negative narrative because most of them had legalistic fundagelical upbringings and their toxic resentment (all the while retaining the fundamentalist mindset) drives them to paint religion in the worst possible light to sleep better at night, l guess

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    1. It’s funny to me that those guys tell everyone to be skeptical yet if their audiences were skeptical of what they said, their audiences would quit listening to them

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  2. “The idea that religion is essentially and particularly violent is …..”
    contrafactual and stupid. The belief system of Jehova Witnesses is essentially and particularly anti-violent. No, I have little sympathy for it.

    “….. religion is uniquely prone to violence”
    To me this is a new level of stupidity.

    “He is stating that religion is, in at least some cases, so intolerant that tolerant people cannot tolerate it.”
    In some cases it is. How it justifies killing is beyond me. See, our secular western culture has invented an answer. It’s called rechtsstaat. Sure, it’s far from perfect, but it has done quite a good job of decreasing violence. A much better job than killing a la Harris. The murderers of Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh (the first one an animal rights fanatic, the second one a fanatical muslim) have not been killed. Dutch judicial system has dealt with them and quite effectively.
    The first but often overlooked problem with Harris’ “ends justifies the means” is that his propagated means don’t result in the ends he longs for. Particularly his plea for torture is simply antiscientific (specifically psychology).
    OK, I’m done with commenting already. Their level of stupidity has most the negative sides of creacrap plus a few unique ones.

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  3. It may well be that “religion is absurd and dangerous”, but where is the historical evidence that mankind longs only for truth and peace above all else?

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  4. “The wars that wracked Europe in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries …..”
    You omitted one: the Eighty Years War. From an international perspective it consisted of two parts. The first part could be called The Dutch Independence War (though things are more complicated), the second part was parallel and strongly connected to the Thirty Years War.
    The important point here is that the Dutch, dominated by calvinists, allied first with the islamic Turks and then with ….. catholic France. So while religion played an important role (duh), there was always much more to it. The label “religious wars” is misleading.
    It also neglects important facts: these devastating wars started in 1494 when France invaded Italy. The correct starting point is the frame France against Habsburg, ie catholics against catholics and not protestants against catholics.
    This all of course confirms your conclusions.

    Fun fact: Dutch Father of the Fatherland William the Silent switched religion three times. In this respect he beat French King Henry IV.

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    1. Aaahh, the beloved Eighty Years’ War.

      FrankB is Dutch, from what I picked up from his comments on other threads so he knows this, but for the larger audience:

      In lower grades in school we learn that it was plucky Protestant Dutch against Catholic Spain.

      In higher grades, we also learn that there was a taxation dispute, a 10% levy that Spain wanted to impose on the Netherlands. Leading to snickering of course, that even in the 17th Century the Dutch were greedy enough to revolt en masse over that.

      Once you get older and you start studying the academic work on this period, what comes up is that both causes go back to the same base cause: Philip II and his successors wanting to centralise power to Madrid. The problem with the 10% tax was not so much the tax itself, as that it was levied not by local nobles, not even the local court in Brussels, but directly by the Imperial representative, the Count of Alba.

      And the directives for a harder line against ‘heretics’ also came down right from Madrid, overruling local nobility’s privileges.

      It is no wonder that the first prominent rebels were local nobles, who presented a petition of grievances on exactly those grounds to the court in Brussels. And two of them got famous because they were beheaded as traitors for doing so.

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      1. It’s totally off ToN’s topic, but I can’t resist. The historical irony is that the most modern state of the world of the 17th Century is the result of a fight for medieval privileges.

      2. Thank you for filling in the background context.

        You could almost say it was a matter of taxation without representation.

  5. As always Tim an excellent analysis.

    Just one small comment, you quote Grayling:

    …one where religion has withered to the relative insignificance of astrology…

    He is apparently unaware how widespread and deep modern belief in astrology actually is.

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  6. Anyone interested in the background to which Hobbes wrote Leviathan should read Blair Worden’s “The English Civil Wars” (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 2009) which emphasises just how complex and rapidly-shifting English politics was at the time.

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  7. Andrew Rilstone comments that it should be “Imagine no Taliban to blow up statues. And imagine no statues to blow up.”

  8. I suppose the New Atheists also take the Billy Boys singing “We’re up to our knees in Fenian blood” literally.

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  9. Andrew Rilstone comments that it should be “Imagine no Taliban to blow up ancient statues… and imagine no Buddhist statues to blow up.” (“The Ballad of Reading Diocese”)

  10. Weird how these lunatics never bother citing any of the counter-acting evidence. Such as when Christianity causes the first peace movements in history (Peace of God; Truce of God). Or the role that Christianity has played in the history of the hospital (and one particularly good book on that topic for me was Tiffany Ziegler’s Medieval Healthcare and the Rise of Charitable Institutions). Surely they would fail to ever mention Pope John Paul II’s role in ending communism in Poland and bringing down several South American dictatorships. And it just goes on and on. The whole manifesto to begin with is a carefully cherry-picked pack of pseudohistory.

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    1. Remember, Julian wrote to Arsacius, “the impious Galileans care for our poor as well as their own.”

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  11. Been waiting eagerly for this one and am not disappointed. I’ve been working the broad outlines of this argument for several years now but in nowhere near the depth you bring to the matter–as expected.

    This non-believer has argued more with the Atheists than with the religious for decades because of the incoherence you cite again and again–smug Atheist activists just parrot whatever made-up boilerplate suits their axe-grinding while mocking a cherry picked and shallow parody of religion for wallowing in silly superstition, and yet when these imaginary facts are contradicted by those who know better the self-styled ‘brights’ almost invariably double-down in error.

    In general I have found religious people to be more honest about their leaps of faith and unquestioned assumptions than Atheists–and find that counter-intuitive observation weird but too commonplace to ignore.

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    1. Perhaps you generally have met the right religious people and the wrong unbelievers. There are also wrong religious people (ever heard of Ken Ham?) and right unbelievers (ever heard of Tim O’Neill?). Both have their fans, so there you are.

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      1. Ken Ham does make an excellent strawman.

        All Richard Dawkins does is knock down strawmen even though he claims to have spent years studying religion in a sincere attempt to understand the phenomenon but finally just couldn’t make sense of it as anything but mass psychosis.

        Dawkins may have learning disabilities and deserves respect and sympathy for trying but it’s hard otherwise to see how he could have learned so little from years of effort. I suspect he’s just lying in a desperate attempt to make an ‘a priori’ position appear to be the result of rigorous rational process. I can guarantee that he didn’t wrestle with the writings of Simone Weil, Hans Kung, Martin Buber, or any profound religious thinkers.

        As a non-believer I obviously have no problem with atheism qua atheism, only with its loudest evangelists, obnoxious creeps who don’t even recognize that their materialism is a metaphysical posit, an ideology–not a fact. Every bit as clueless as any fundamentalist and indeed I think of them as the fundamentalists of a faith based religion.

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        1. “Ken Ham does make an excellent strawman.”
          As I didn’t argue against anything you wrote but only made a suggestion I doubt it. But if so you’re guilty of this yourself as well. See, I think The God Delusion quack philosopy. Better still, what you wrote in your last paragraph I have expressed myself several times on this very blog.
          Still there are quite some unbelievers around, even on internet, who are not loud evangelists etc. It’s up to you whether you’ll pay them some more attention.

  12. The sense of “religio” in Lucretius De Rerum Natura looks fairly recognisable from the modern point of view, though….

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      1. Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum !

        In general, the word “religion” in Lucretius is far more similar to our “superstition”.

        1. No, in that passage Lucretius is giving an example of traditional religious practice leading to something evil – he’s citing the story of the sacrifice of Iphigenia, eldest daughter of Agamemnon, as depicted by Euripides. Agamemnon had once promised Artemis to sacrifice the most beautiful thing the year had produced. When unfavourable winds stop his passage to Troy, the seer Calchas reminds him of his promise and (in this version) Iphigenia is sent for and sacrificed to the goddess, who then allows the voyage to continue.

          Here Lucretius is using the term in the Roman manner I describe: “the expected, traditional practice (in this case, sacrifice) required by duty to the gods”.

  13. Did Mackay’s Extraordinary Popular Delusions also play a role in creating the modern conception of the Crusades? That’s from 1841, and not a scholarly book, but it certainly went against the more romantic notions of the Crusades.

  14. When anti-theists cite the Troubles in Northern Ireland as showing the violence of religion (as Dawkins does), it seems like shady accounting — the conflict demonstrates religious names for the sides, “Catholic” & “Protestant”, but is, in essence, a conflict over national identity, “Irish” & “British”.

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    1. Yes, that was a point I meant to make as well. Both Dawkins and Hitchens refer to the Troubles as a religious conflict. But even the distant historical origins of the conflict in the seventeenth century had far more geo-political and socio-cultural causes than religious ones. When the English invaded in the later twelfth century religion was not really an issue at all – both the Anglo-Normans and the Irish were Catholic. To think that Loyalist boys on the Shankill Road or Sinn Fein voters in the Bogside were ever thinking much about theology when throwing petrol bombs or punches is pretty fanciful. Anyone who has been to Northern Ireland can see the divisions are clearly socio-economic and the paramilitary violence was basically tribal – closer to gang warfare than a jihad.

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      1. Also worth putting that conflict in perspective. While the terrorist atrocities committed by the IRA were nothing short of evil – and most casualties were civilians – we are talking about 3,500 deaths on both (all?) sides over the course of the last century.

        Without diminishing the value of any single innocent life in that conflict, we shouldn’t pretend it was especially bloody. A similar number of people die in traffic accidents in the UK every 18 months or so.

      2. Indeed. As a Christian from & living in Belfast who grew up during the ‘Troubles’, it’s sad to still see the ‘old’ attitudes still pervading certain groups of young people (and older), where religious belief/identification, in this case Catholic or Protestant, is still used as an excuse for hatred towards their neighbour (they clearly havent read or choose to ignore Jesus’ commandment). But that’s all it is, an excuse, an easy way to make others ‘different’. It’s hardly surprising that the same thugs are now threatening ethnic minorities for daring to live and work in N Ireland.

        Peter

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      3. Tim, Scott Atran’s research found that Jihadist recruitment shares parallels with gang recruitment. He also found that the initiatives that keep kids out of gangs works for keeping them out of jihad. Can’t say whether the gang violence shares parallels; food for thought regardless.

        Eagleton attacked Dawkins in his review of “The God Delusion” for misunderstanding the Irish troubles. Hitch calling the Troubles a religious conflict is bizarre for an ex-Trotskyist. Is anyone here familiar with statements on the troubles prior to 9/11? Did he always consider the troubles a religious conflict?

    2. There is an anecdote about a puzzled American asking “Don’t you have any atheists in Ulster?” “You have to understand, there are CATHOLIC atheists and PROTESTANT atheists.”
      I blame the “news” media, who kept repeating “religious conflict…. religious conflict”.
      They also kept saying that the fighting in Bosnia was between “Muslims” and “ethnic Serbs”, when the Muslims are just as much ethnic Serbs as the rest of them.

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      1. Sorry to go on a tangent from main point of this article, but, while Bosnian Muslims are in the broad ethnic category of “Slavic”, they usually are not in the more specific Slavic ethnicity of “Serb”.

        The specific ethnic name for Bosnian Muslims is typically “Bosniak”, and it is this ethnicity most media are alluding to with the term “Bosnian Muslim”. There are extremely few Serbians who are Muslim.

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  15. “…. a figure of approximately three million exsanguinated corpses; which is hundreds of thousands of times more than the entire population of eleventh century Jerusalem.”

    I think you mean “hundreds _or_ thousands” instead of “hundreds of thousands”?

    If 3 millions is just one “hundred _of_ thousands of times more” would mean the entire population of Jerusalem would have been just 30 people.

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  16. Hmmm. This is a very interesting article, and many of the arguments you bring up are thoughts that I myself have contemplated after listening a bit to the audio version of “God is not Great”

    I do wonder about another “version” of this argument however. The argument goes that religion is rotten to the core and must be destroyed due to it’s upholding of oppression and “allying with the upper classes against the common man”. (Religion is in other words institutionally violent) It was initially a leftist argument made by people like Karl marx, but have now started to gain traction among more liberal-minded atheists. (Especially on places like twitter)

    Examples of this oppression supposedly include the total enslavement/enserfment of european peasants to the aristocracy in the middle ages and beyond, medieval tithing (Evil priests stealing money) and strangling education for poor people. Secular liberalism and the enlightenment (that was of course 100% anti-theist) were the noble ideologies that we have to thank for the demise of this nastiness.

    Would you agree with these examples, or would you argue that they are a bit too simplistic?/Lack nuance?

    (One can of course grant all these examples but still acknowledge the fact that anti-authority and almost anarchist religious groups like quakers and radical hussites have existed)

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    1. The argument goes that religion is rotten to the core and must be destroyed due to it’s upholding of oppression and “allying with the upper classes against the common man”.

      There are certainly plenty of examples where “religion” does this. But there are also plenty of examples of it doing the exact opposite. The NT is full of sayings whereby the rich and the powerful are denigrated and the poor and powerless are assured that, one day soon, they will be given righteous justice. This means the history of Christianity, to give one example, is full of movements that champion the downtrodden against the elites. The Liberation Theology movements of Latin America, the Levellers in the English Civil War, the Quakers – all found their ideological and theological foundations in these passages. We can find similar examples in many other religious traditions. So why is “religion” to be characterised by the examples of upholding the upper classes and not the examples of the opposite?

      Examples of this oppression supposedly include the total enslavement/enserfment of european peasants to the aristocracy in the middle ages and beyond, medieval tithing (Evil priests stealing money) and strangling education for poor people …. Would you agree with these examples.

      Leaving aside the more critical problem with this argument outlined above, no I would not agree with those examples. Serfdom, in its various forms, developed out of economic and political conditions that had pretty much nothing to do with the Church. And it was not “enslavement” in any of its forms – all medieval serfs had legal protections and liberties that no actual slave would even dream of. Tithing was something that could be and often was abused, but in essence it was simply the community providing for its priest and other clergy. To call all tithing “evil priests stealing money” is plain stupid. And the idea that the Church somehow “strangled education for poor people” is pure nonsense. Most poor people didn’t need and so didn’t want any education. If they lacked any it was not because it was somehow being withheld from them by the Church. On the contrary, it was local priests who usually sponsored an education for poor kids who showed signs of intelligence and ability and Church institutions which set up schools to educate these children. Many very high ranking and powerful churchmen were the children of peasants and workers and rose to their rank thanks to the free education given to them by Church sponsors and institutions. The medieval scientist, inventor and abbot of St Albans, Richard of Wallingford, was the son of a blacksmith. Cardinal Thomas Wolsey rose to the rank of Chancellor of England and was the effective ruler of the kingdom during the early reign of Henry VIII. He was the son of a butcher. In Roman times, the equivalents of Wallingford and Wolsey would have stayed a blacksmith and butcher like their fathers. In medieval and early modern Europe they were recognised for their intelligence, educated and rose to positions of power and, in Wallingford’s case, were able to advance learning and technology.

      So no, I think your examples are pretty bad. There are other examples that would serve the argument you refer to much better, but that just brings us back to the problem I’ve identified above. Cherry picking bad things religion is responsible for and then saying “religion is like this” is pretty easy to do. But you can also find an equal number of counter examples of religion being responsible for good things. So how exactly is the calculus about whether “religion” is “good” or “bad” made? And this is before we even tangle with the many problems with how you define and delineate “religion” in the first place.

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      1. Thanks for the clarification Tim. Especially the part about medieval education was quite interesting.

        This is actually a very good answer, and it is probably something that could be said in response to people like “Kraut” (a “history” Youtuber who apparently think the “lord’s first night” was a thing) and anti-theist socdems that make the argument all the damn time.

        (Also i was kind of playing “Devil’s advocate” in the first answer, I hope you did not misunderstand me and think that I 100% meant that:)

      2. ‘In Roman times, the equivalents of Wallingford and Wolsey would have stayed a blacksmith and butcher like their fathers. In medieval and early modern Europe they were recognised for their intelligence’

        As if social mobility was unthinkable in Roman society. Such bullshit.

        1. Did I say there was no social mobility in Roman society? Of course there was. But there was no institution which was an engine of social mobility purely on the grounds of intelligence and potential academic ability that could elevate a peasant to the highest echelon of society on anything like the scale at which the Church did this in the Middle Ages and the Early Modern Era. Wallingford and Wolsey were just two examples among thousands. The Army could elevate lower status people to high rank, but not the lowest status (slaves) and not purely because of intelligence. Freedmen occasionally became influential at court, but their status meant they generally did so behind the scenes despite the barriers to their social mobility – there were definite limits to how high they could go in most cases.

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          1. There were limits in Medievail Societies too, probably more so than in Roman times. You said that in Roman times they would have done the same job of their fathers. But Maximinus Thrax was the son of a barbarian sheperd and he became Emperor, and Pertinax was a freedman’s son, same of Diocletian. How many chances to see *that* happening in the Kingdom of England? Most they could hope for, perhaps one in a million, was to become, as you put it, influential at court: but the same happened in Rome. Yeah, ‘intelligence,’ however you define it (as if intelligence wasn’t required to become an Emperor’s favourite or a General) wasn’t the selection criteria… but was it really in the Medieval case either?

          2. That response does not actually address what I said above. If you’re going to keep responding to me, I suggest you read what I say much more carefully and respond accordingly.

    2. “(Religion is in other words institutionally violent)”
      See eg archbishop Oscar Romero. He got murdered; it was ordered by those “upper classes”. The ones who bring up this version of the argument always systematically neglect such cases. However when you start to look for them there are many indeed.
      The only version that works is against the claim of apologists that religion (usually they mean christianity) is morally superior. Without contradicting anything written abouve about the Troubles it’s clear that neither catholicism nor protestantism managed to decrease violence in Ulster/Northern Ireland. Etc. etc. Religion is still not the cause, period.
      The “secret” (it really isn’t) is stopping the silly competition of arguing what’s morally superior, religion or non-religion. Then you’ll start realizing how childish the stupid argument “ban religion and the world will be better” actually is.

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  17. Good article. We have to be skeptical of monocausal explanations of history, where Y thing is wholly explained by X event. The world is always more complicated.

    It’s fair to say that religion INFLUENCES war, and shapes its character. But that’s different to saying “the Middle Ages would have been peaceful, except Christianity existed” or “the Middle East would be peaceful, except Islam exists.” Perhaps those times and places would have been even bloodier without religion (or with different ones). Who can know? We’ve only got one Earth – historians don’t get to peek into alternate universes where Martin Luther was Buddhist or secular, fascinating though that would be.

    “hysterical and gleeful chroniclers”

    Hitchens does this a lot, and it’s always annoying.

    He can’t ever retell an event neutrally – he always packs his writing with emotional and prejudicial adjectives, like a Victorian penny dreadful writer.

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    1. Admittedly, there is a lot more to the nastiness in the world than religion, and many religious folks are decent folks–but fanatical religion doesn’t help matters either! In my native country the USA, the Radical Religious Republican Right is scary!

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      1. Radical and scary compared to the Woke Left (who actually have influence)? Are you serious?

        And l would argue it’s the New Atheists that led to this political madness. When you try to get rid of religion, it will just manifest elsewhere, in ugly ways — that’s what we see in the Woke. That said, I have no love for the far Right MAGA loons but they’re not the ones in power (and when they are in power, they don’t do anything anyway).

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        1. Keyra, we will have to agree to disagree about many things, but for the record, my political views are disgustingly centrist.

          FrankB, we agree that any fanatically held ideology can be dangerous, whether it be the radical “woke” Left (e.g., those who wish to defund the police) or the radical Trump Right (e.g., Ted Cruz and Marjorie Taylor Greene working to sabotage free elections).

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          1. Let’s keep the topic on history and not current politics. Whenever I see anyone use the stupid term “woke” it’s a sign I need to start sending some comments to the trash. No more of that crap please.

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          2. Amusing how a dated AAVE term (black Americans started using it almost ten years ago) has become popular among English speakers who aren’t fluent in ebonics.

  18. I was long hope for such an article. Was expexting another direction. Instead you worte about what should have considered more. Great.
    Also, you gave me hints where i seem to have a wrong understanding and need to educate myselfe . Brillant.

  19. I shall have to tell my Jewish friends who complain about the anti-Semitism in the New Testament- and the resultant pogroms and the Shoah- to read this article. Thanks for setting them straight.

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  20. Excellent article- balanced and sensible

    one small point in the Crusades section, 3,000,000 cannot be 100,000x population of Jerusalem unless population was only 30. Maybe I have misunderstood?

    1. That error has already been pointed out and I’ve already corrected that sentence. I think we can all agree that I’m better at history than mathematics.

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  21. This reminded me of the episode of South Park where one of the boys (Kyle, I think) was transported into a future without religion, and there were atheist groups fighting each other over the correct interpretation of Richard Dawkins.

    Perhaps we humans just like to fight.

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    1. As a whole, atheists as human beings are no better and no worse than religious believers. However, quibbling over sacred atheistic scriptures like Richard Dawkins’ literary output is just not atheistic style. REAL atheists of the obnoxious variety split up into warring social and political factions like Social Justice Warriors, Atheism-Plus feminists, and Ayn Rand yuppies. As Dawkins himself wrote in the preface of his atheistic magnum opus *The God Delusion*, organizing atheists is like herding cats.

      And in case anybody cares, I am an Occam’s Razor atheist and my political views are disgustingly centrist.

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      1. I think social justice important enough to call myself a warrior, including equal rights and opportunities for women (and several decades before atheism+). Also I’m more than just an Occam’s Razor atheist. So I guess you think me obnoxious; thanks for the compliment.

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        1. I’m a Christian, Frank, and I find myself agreeing with you more than any other frequent commenter. I recall Keyra is an atheist (apologies if I’m mixing them up with someone else), and I suspect they agree with Brother Jimmy more often than you. Just goes to show that having an opinion on the existence of Gods doesn’t tell you anything relevant about a person’s character.

          Sectarian splits seem like a universal feature of all belief systems, secular or otherwise. The centuries old pissing matches between communists and anarchists serve as a secular example.

          1. Has any of Mr. O’neill’s articles on Jesus ever given you any pause regarding your belief in Christianity?

          2. Aimless, I’m a terrible theologian and an even worse philosopher. I’m a Christian for existential reasons, not logical ones, and I have a tendency to read the bible symbolically; critical bible scholarship contradicting tradition doesn’t lead me to question my faith as a result. I’m also influenced by David Bentley Hart, who seems to integrate CBS into his own theological analysis (although I could be very wrong about this). Tim’s reviews of modern Stoic books make me question the utility of my faith more than this blog.

            Apologies if my answer is a bit short; a longer answer would touch on topics that are not appropriate for a blog dedicated to correcting new atheist misconceptions about history.

  22. I guess I agree with much of this. Though I’d note one small objection: religion promising working people liberation, even heaven on earth “one day”, is not necessarily firm evidence of good things in religion. Since often people mistakenly or insincerely promise things they won’t deliver.

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  23. ‘That New Atheist rhetoric could get to this level of bizarre hypocrisy is remarkable, but to an extent it is explicable. It is an outgrowth of a series of historical myths with their roots in the eighteenth century and the establishment of the European nation state as the primary institution of the modern world, at least until very recently. It is based on several ideas: (i) that there is a distinct social category called “religion”, (ii) that “religion” is inherently and distinctively inclined to intolerance and violence and (iii) that the nation state and its governmental institutions are the best way to hold this violence in check by reducing religion to the private sphere (or supressing it altogether). These claims are justified by reference to history, but the historical bases for them are both outdated and highly dubious.’

    Given the multifarious examples both of people being inspired by their religions to pacifism and of people being inspired to violence independently of religion, (ii) is fairly dismissed as erroneous; but (i) and (iii) are not the same. Neither can fairly be accepted unqualified without further analysis, and for the purposes of the present discussion you have appropriately focussed on their limitations; but they do have merits which warrant further discussion, although not here where that would be a distraction from the point.

    1. One thing I would research carefully: is it even possible to absolutely disentangle much religion from say, militant nationalism, regionalism.

      The Old Testament was clearly very, very centered on Israel and Judah; the New, on Jerusalem. While in America, Christianity often incorporates the flag.

      Other tribal religions focus on the local tribes.

      Many nations claim that God is on their side.

      1. I make an easy distinction between the indisputable fact that religion is one of the cultural touchstones used to unify people to serve wars driven by non-religious agendas and wars that are fought over religion qua religion. There don’t seem to be many of the latter. If the Thirty Years War, the bloodiest of Europe’s “Wars of Religion” was really about religion then why did Catholic France under Cardinal Richelieu make alliances with Protestant Gustavus Adolphus and the Muslim Ottomans against France’s Catholic Habsburg rivals? Since religion is a nearly universal feature of human cultures it would be strange indeed if those in power didn’t avail themselves of its manipulative potential, didn’t proclaim god on their side.

        1. Most liberal Christians today have been taught to emphasize “love” of even your enemies. But the Bible iself? Still contains a hundred references to wars authorized by God. Including an “Armageddon” to be fought in the future.

          Islam also regularly declares Holy Wars; the Prophet himself was a soldier.

          The distinction you support I admit, seems very very useful prescriptively; but not descriptively. Your popular religion requires abandonment of large sections of say, the Abrahamic religious books. Which many are today, fortunately, willing to do. But some are not.

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          1. As far as a collection of books that exclusively preaches peace and love, it does not meet that requirement. But frankly, it is tough to find any major idea that ties the modern secular nation states to exclusive doctrines around peace and love.

            They have all sorts of implicit violence attached to them – policing, wars, prisons, taxes – that are all justified by their own self-proclaimed narratives for their existence.

            That doesn’t make modern secular nation-states wrong, as much as it puts our own concepts around what is a violent vs non-violent systems of social organization in a bit more humbling light.

          2. If Christianity is found to be very like a conventional state, then it is less religious.

            And perhaps we should abandon it. For more modern states.

  24. Tim, what a wonderful and detailed piece – thanks for all of your hard work. I’m deeply impressed by your scholarship.

    1. Pretty typical. That sub “banned” me years ago for the thought-crime of telling them some of their most treasured myths were wrong and explaining why. They’re basically fundamentalist fanatics who refuse to consider alternative views. Several of the commenters there clearly didn’t even read my article or didn’t understand anything I said. A couple seem to have not read past the first paragraphs and just assumed I was saying no wars or violence were ever motivated by religion, where I clearly and repeatedly say some were. Then that u/spaceghoti quotes atheist blogger Greta Christina that has nothing to do with anything I said and then makes a series of statements that shows he didn’t read my article. These include the remarkable assertions that “Religion was there in all of them from the First Crusade to the Cold War and the War on Terror” and “without religion it would be harder to get people to buy in and volunteer as sacrifices to carry out their gods’ will”, which part from being dubious in themselves, aren’t even slightly relevant to what I argue.

      Those people are not exactly nuanced thinkers. Or even particularly bright. So anything that doesn’t fir their limited set of clichés goes straight over their heads. But at least you tried.

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        1. Yes. She was involved in the now defunct “Atheism+” push to make the “atheist movement” more overtly progressive. The reactionary right wing and “libertarian” atheists didn’t like this much.

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          1. Atheism+ was a good foreshadow of the last several years. I helped with their forums when they first opened. Seemed like no matter what people wanted to talk about, everything got overrun by people complaining about pronoun usage.

    2. “Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/atheism.”
      I like this. You have one guess – who else remove posts that don’t fit their wordviews?

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  25. It is hard for many new and fervent, dogmatic atheists, to acknowledge thay there is anything at all that is useful in any part of religion whatsoever. However? We should note that the religion of “love” has been very useful to world peace.

    Atheists here though could take consolation in knowing that this New Testament religion, was partly based on apparently abandoning ar least elements of earlier, very warlike religion.

    At the same time, believers who are concerned about any such abandonment, we also note, have long had arguments that religion itself authorized such things; assuring us that the old violent God himself had authorized a “new covenant”; a new and gentler version of religion.

    So in peace, there is something here for both believers and nonbelievers.

    1. War is such a huge and emotional subject, it is hard to imagine any book, even an encyclopedia, being adequate. More relevant here might be the Encyclopedia of Religion and War?

      In any case, Tim has chosen to acknowledge that link; but to stress the relation of at least some religion, to peace.

      In my lifetime, most Christian preachers have stressed love and peace, by far. Though that is not the entire picture.

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      1. No, I won’t be removing the reference. Your linked article tries to claim readers of the book “would not find any effort to categorize wars as religious or otherwise”, and shows that the number comes from the work’s index listing under “religious wars”. Anyone who has compiled an index to a book like this will tell you that this is exactly what “categorising” is.

        The problem that wars never have a single cause and so classifying one as being primarily or even substantially “religious” is extremely difficult – a problem which cuts both ways in relation to this question. For example, Phillips and Axelrod list the Albigensian Crusade as a “religious war” and it was certainly declared as a campaign to eradicate the Cathar heresy from southern France, with Pope Innocent III offering a Crusader benefit to all who took the cross and took part. But it quickly became a territorial struggle, with southern French lords, most of whom were not Cathars, fighting to defend their lands from northern adventurers, most of whom didn’t care less about heresy. And it developed further into a war where the French king sought to increase his power and authority over southern barons who had long been effectively independent of royal authority. So was it a “religious war”? Depends on how you look at it.

        The fact remains that Phillips and Axelrod list hundreds of wars and only categorise a few of them as “religious”, as much as such a categorisation can be made. So the reference stands, thanks.

        1. tim, please could you tell me in which book/article can I find this information you mentioned about the albigensian crusade being a territorial struggle?

          1. Pretty much any book on the Albigensian Crusade notes that it became a land grab for northern lords and an excuse for the French King to bring the formerly very independent duchies of the Languedoc under closer royal control.

          2. One of the first books I flipped through on the subject speaks of a “moral imperative demanding the extermination of heretics through mass murder” (Mark Gregory Pegg in A Most Holy War: the Albigensian Crusade and the battle for christendom). Maybe reading the whole book the author brings other information… but I still don’t understand: did Innocent proclaim this crusade to murder heretics or to reconcile them with the church through preaching? Why was there this change in approach?

          3. He proclaimed the war to bring the region under the control of lords he considered orthodox. And was perfectly fine with heretics being killed in the process. But as the war went on this initially very clear theoretical objective became far less clear, especially when the southern French rulers of the region joined the Crusade themselves. So who exactly were being fought and why got less and less clear and it increasingly became a war of dominance by the northern lords and the king over their southern neighbours.

          4. I understood. but… do you think Pregg is an author with a good bibliography on this subject? He seems to put the crusade as a genocide (“The albigensian crusade ushered genocide into the West by linking divine salvation to mass murder, by making slaughter as loving an act as His sacrifice on the cross”) and based on what you explained this crusade does not seem this is a genocide…
            And what led Gregory to no longer want to reconcile the “heretics” with the church? In the beginning he sent preachers to convince the “cathars” to renounce their “heretical” beliefs, right?

          5. I haven’t read Pegg’s book, but it is well-regarded as good scholarship. If you’re referring to Innocent (not Gregory), his objective was to bring the Languedoc under the control of lords who would cooperate with his policy and then use the preaching orders to defeat heresy. In effect, this is more or less what happened in the end.

  26. In support of SSC’s thesis that New Atheism was a failed hamartiology, I quote the God Delusion:

    In support of SSC’s thesis that New Atheism was a failed harmatiology, I
    quote the God Delusion:

    > […] But it is frequently and rightly said that wars, and feuds
    between religious groups or sects, are seldom actually about theological
    disagreements. […] Religion is a label of in-group/out-group enmity
    and vendetta, not necessarily worse than other labels such as skin
    colour, language or preferred football team, but often available when
    other labels are not. Yes yes, of course the troubles in Northern
    Ireland are political. […] There really are genuine grievances and
    injustices, and these seem to have little to do with religion; except
    that – and this is important and widely overlooked – without religion
    there would be no labels by which to decide whom to oppress and whom to
    avenge. […] And without religion, and religiously segregated
    education, the divide simply would not be there. From Kosovo to
    Palestine, from Iraq to Sudan, from Ulster to the Indian subcontinent,
    look carefully at any region of the world where you find
    intractable enmity and violence between rival groups. I cannot
    guarantee that you’ll find religions as the dominant labels for ingroups
    and out-groups. But it’s a very good bet. In India at the time of
    partition, more than a million people were massacred in religious riots
    between Hindus and Muslims (and fifteen million displaced from their
    homes). There were no badges other than religious ones with which to
    label whom to kill. […]

    Dawkins’ view seems plausible, but overlooks a confounding factor: Rival
    groups tend towards divergent religious beliefs. Adoption of a religion
    seldom happens due to chance (afaik in India, certain lower castes
    converted to Islam while higher-ranking ones stuck with Hinduism). There
    can be strong overlaps between ethnicity and religion (as with the Black
    Church). And who wants to argue that Rastafarians, Amish or Mormons were
    a random sample of the places where they originated?

    1. This might be a “which came first, the chicken or the egg” kind of question.

      Likely there were distinct races, ethnicities, due to geographic isolation. Particularly in the days before easy transportation.

      So geographic isolation is the root cause of many human differences. And among other things, isolated groups, gene pools, developed individual cultures. Of which distinguishing religions were a major element.

  27. Thomas F. Madden did say that the scholarly consensus was that the Crusades were defensive wars against Muslim aggression:

    “So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already by said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression — an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.”

    He details how it was the continued Muslim expansion by military means that evoked the call for defense that became what we know as the Crusades – or at least the first one?

    This is from his book, chapters of which were published on this Catholic website: https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4461

    Now this was 18/19 years ago – has the scholarly consensus/opinion shifted in almost two decades?

    1. Madden is right in the sense that the Crusades began as a action in defence against Muslim encroachment on the Byzantine Empire by the Seljuks in the late eleventh century. That the First Crusade was sparked by this development is certainly a consensus position. But it was a genuine religious, apocalyptic zeal focused on “the Holy Places” that really made the movement what it was, and that had little to do with geopolitics. And what Stark and others try to claim is that it was a defence of western Europe against some kind of encroachment by “Islam”, as though any and all raids, invasions or conquest by any power (from pirate bands upward) that were in any sense “Muslim” was some kind of co-ordinated effort and as though medieval Europeans saw them this way. This is all total fantasy. There is nothing in the sources to support this stupid idea.

      Madden is also a very conservative guy and wrote that in reaction to some very bad readings of Crusading history by left wing types in the 9/11 and the Iraq War. To say that the Crusades were a reaction to the conquests of Islam in anything but a very broad sense is skewing things the other way.

      1. Thanks Tim – I’m wary of my predilection to synthesize new information with what I already believe, so am glad that in this case doing that has merit.

      2. If one accepts that the First Crusade was an “action in defence against Muslim encroachment on the Byzantine Empire by the Seljuks” than in what sense would you say that it was not defensive? And if one accepts that the First Crusade was defensive, then the rest of the Eastern Crusades are also. Whether or not the Seljuqs saw their encroachment on the Roman Empire as religious is pretty irrelevant to Christendom if the end result is that Constantinople is conquered. You mentioned that the Crusade was caused by genuine religious faith not geopolitics but the Christians saw their struggle as being profoundly defensive. It wasn’t just Christianity’s perceived inherent right to Jerusalem which justified the Crusade, it was specifically the attacks on Byzantium, Eastern Christians, and Western pilgrims. Also, many Western Christians (and certainly Pope Urban) definitely did perceive the ‘Islamic world’ as being a threat to Christendom. They believed that the’Turks’ were only one part of a larger enemy.

        1. “If one accepts that the First Crusade was an “action in defence against Muslim encroachment on the Byzantine Empire by the Seljuks” than in what sense would you say that it was not defensive?”

          It’s not defensive in the only sense relevant here. That’s the sense of those who claim that the Crusades were called to defend Latin Europe against “Islam”. This is the claim of those who try to justify the Crusades by turning them into a series of wars to protect western Europe against a threat from encroaching “Islam”. But there is nothing in any of the Crusading literature that talks about any kind of threat to western Europe, let alone some kind of threat to western Christianity from something called “Islam”. Urban used the Seljuk encroachment on the Byzantines to call for a war to liberate the Holy Places. He said nothing about any threat to western Europe. That whole idea is a projection of certain modern political and social paranoias onto the past.

          Whether or not the Seljuqs saw their encroachment on the Roman Empire as religious is pretty irrelevant to Christendom if the end result is that Constantinople is conquered.

          So the Crusaders of the eleventh to thiteenth centuries had crystal balls, could see the rise of the Ottomans and the fall of Constantinople in the late fifteenth century and so shaped their strategy around this prescience? And if their goal was the defence of Constantinople, they went about it in a very strange way. Especially in April 1204.

          You mentioned that the Crusade was caused by genuine religious faith not geopolitics but the Christians saw their struggle as being profoundly defensive.

          Yes, of the Holy Places in Palestine. They were initally partially motivated by Seljuk advances in Asia Minor, but quickly lost any interest in assisting the Byzantines. And then gained quite a bit of interest in undermining them. Right up to and including … sacking Constantinople. Strange sort of “defence” that.

          many Western Christians (and certainly Pope Urban) definitely did perceive the ‘Islamic world’ as being a threat to Christendom. They believed that the’Turks’ were only one part of a larger enemy.

          Garbage. Nothing in the primary sources indicates any such idea. And if they had, why didn’t they launch the Crusade against the only Islamic forces actually encroaching on western Europe – the ones in Spain? And why did they quickly bypass the Byzantines and march to the sacred but strategically unimportant territories of the Holy Land? Why didn’t they strike at the political heart of “Islam” in Egypt? Or its religious centre in Arabia? You’re projecting geopolitical motives onto them that they simply didn’t have. Their motives were religious and their strategies followed that motivation.

          1. > “It’s not defensive in the only sense relevant here.”
            So if I’m interpreting this correctly, you agree that the Crusades were defensive, just not in defense of Western Europe as some people claim? If so, I would essentially agree although I also somewhat think that the only sense which should be relevant is that of the crusaders themselves who perceived their holy war as being intensely defensive of Christendom (not “Western Europe”). Nevertheless, if somebody (like Stark) does say that the Crusades were launched to preserve the independence of Western Europe, you’re right to correct them.
            > “So the Crusaders of the eleventh to thiteenth centuries had crystal balls, could see the rise of the Ottomans and the fall of Constantinople in the late fifteenth century and so shaped their strategy around this prescience?”
            The fall of Constantinople to the Seljuk warlords of Anatolia was an extremely prescient possibility on the eve of the First Crusade. Alexios Komnenos had every right to be worried that the Roman Empire was about to be extinguished. One of the greatest myths about the First Crusade (often repeated even by scholars) is that Alexios was in a relatively secure position in 1095 and he just wanted a few troops from the pope so that he could opportunistically use the disunity of the Turks to retake some land. In reality, he was in a profoundly exposed position and if the Crusaders hadn’t arrived to bail him out, he may very well have been deposed. Remember, Nicaea, the capital of the so-called Sultanate of Rum, was just outside Constantinople. Constantinople was the greatest, richest and most populous city ruled by Christians as well as being one of the five holiest locations in Christendom. Three of them were already ruled by Muslims, now the fourth was being threatened by them. More than enough reason for the fifth to launch a rescue mission.
            > “Yes, of the Holy Places in Palestine.”
            Latin Christendom had obviously always cared about the Holy Land however they never tried to recover them before except for one (possibly two) time(s). And its very telling that that time was when Constantinople was being threatened after the Manzikert defeat. It took for the Roman Empire to be threatened for the papacy to launch crusades.
            > “…quickly lost interest in assisting the Byzantines.”
            You make it sound as if they just got bored. What actually happened is that the Crusaders and the Emperor got on swimmingly at first (contrary to what’s usually claimed) and, working together, they took Nicaea, a major coup for Alexios. The Crusaders then marched across southern Asia Minor, taking control of all the cities in their way and giving them to Roman governors and representatives. It was only after Alexios, believing that the Crusaders were about to be destroyed at Antioch, abandoned them to their fate, that ties between them were broken. In other words, it was the perceived betrayal of the Romans which  destroyed relations, not the Crusaders’ indifference to Byzantium.
            > “Right up to and including…sacking Constantinople.”
            Well you kinda skipped about a hundred years there, during which time Byzantium had thoroughly proved itself an opponent of the Crusaders in all four crusades.
            > “Nothing in the primary sources indicates any such idea.”
            Well, let’s take Pope Urban himself then. A couple of Spanish knights decided to leave on crusade, or as Urban put it “go to the aid of the Asian Church […] to liberate their brothers from the tyranny of the Saracens”, so Urban sent a letter telling them to stay put in Spain and help in the quest to restore the city of Tarragona, even offering them remission of sins. He then says “it is no virtue to rescue Christians from Saracens in one place, only to expose them to the tyranny and oppression of the Saracens in another”. Here, Urban is obviously drawing a comparability, or even a parallelism, between the Muslims of al-Andalus and the Turks or Egyptians. This is obviously politically nonsensical however it makes perfect sense if Urban believes that ultimately Islam (Saracen is (kind of) a generic term for a Muslim) is a threat to Christendom wherever it is found whether the Levant or Spain. You can tell me if there’s a different interpretation.
            > “why didn’t they launch the Crusade against the only Islamic forces actually encroaching on western Europe – the ones in Spain?”
            Well, because…they did. The crusades began in Spain. The papacy had been consistently granting the indulgence to the knights in Spain in the hope of “reconquering” land way before the First Crusade was called. When Alfonso VI conquered the ancient Visigothic capital of Toledo, it was considered a great Christian victory against the “invaders” (the ideology of reconquista, if not the name, had taken root at this point). The same thing happened when the church-backed Normans took over Sicily from the Muslims. Now, whether one believes that the religious motivation was central to these conquests (the correct position) or that it was a front for territorial ambition (the sixteen-year old cynical atheist’s position) the papacy certainly believed that these were religious reconquests.
            > “Their motives were religious and their strategies followed that motivation.”
            Agreed, but that doesn’t contradict anything else I’ve said.

          2. So if I’m interpreting this correctly, you agree that the Crusades were defensive, just not in defense of Western Europe as some people claim?

            Kind of. The Byzantine request for assistance was clearly a major catalyst and the inciting element. But defence of the Byzantine Empire quickly faded as a major motivator for the leaders of the First Crusade and probably didn’t feature at all for most of those who took the cross initially. And those in the popular mass movement wouldn’t have been able to tell you what the Empire was. Once the Crusaders and the Byzantines actually began interacting, they were happy to use each other for their own ends, but those ends quickly diverged. And then the Byzantines came to be seen as shifty and unreliable allies at best and about as bad as the Muslims at worst.

            the crusaders themselves who perceived their holy war as being intensely defensive of Christendom

            I see little evidence to support that. The objective quickly became the retaking of the Holy Places and all other considerations faded fairly rapidly.

            The fall of Constantinople to the Seljuk warlords of Anatolia was an extremely prescient possibility on the eve of the First Crusade … [snip]

            These strategic realities are all very well but totally irrelevant. They were only known in their broadest outline by those who declared the First Crusade, were of little interest to those who led it and of no interest at all to the bulk of the Crusaders. They cooperated with the Byzantines for as long as it suited them but then focuses on their own objectives, which were primarily religious. After that it was all about defending and maintaining their fragile polities in the Outremer.

            Latin Christendom had obviously always cared about the Holy Land however they never tried to recover them before except for one (possibly two) time(s). And its very telling that that time was when Constantinople was being threatened after the Manzikert defeat. It took for the Roman Empire to be threatened for the papacy to launch crusades.

            Latin Christendom recovered the Holy Land at about the first chance it had to do so. It was too fragmented, too uncoordinated and too poor earlier. The First Crusade happened at about exactly the point it could have happened and no earlier. And the threat to the Empire was, as I’ve said, the catalyst. But not much more. There is nothing in the relevant source material expressing any great fears for Byzantium or any zeal to defend it. Most of the time “the Greeks” were seen as part of the problem, not the focus of a solution.

            You make it sound as if they just got bored. What actually happened is …

            I know what happened thanks. No, they didn’t “get bored”. They were never largely focused on assisting the Byzantines in the first place and became increasingly less so once they had secured the Holy Places. They were the focus. For the bulk of the troops, they were always the only focus.

            Well you kinda skipped about a hundred years there

            No, I included that hundred years in what I said. The events of 1204 were the dramatic culmination of a century-long long process of divergence between the aims of the Crusaders and their kind-of allies the Byzantines.

            The crusades began in Spain.

            No, they didn’t. There were proto-crusading ideals there and the real Crusading movement caught on there as it did in other places outside the Outremer (eg Cathar France and the Baltic). But 32 years before the First Crusade, Pope Alexander tried to stir the knights of Europe into joining the Spanish Christian kingdoms in attacking Muslim states in Spain back in 1063 , but the result was less than spectacular – a handful of non-Spanish knights who had little impact. Three decades later a similar call focused on the Holy Land triggered a mass movement that lasted for centuries. The difference? An apocalyptic vision of liberating the Holy Places before the coming end times motivated people. Defending Christendom on its doorstep didn’t.

            The whole “defensive wars” idea can’t be salvaged via the Byzantine sideshow.

          3. By “Daniel Gin”:

            “The fall of Constantinople to the Seljuk warlords of Anatolia was an extremely prescient possibility on the eve of the First Crusade”

            What absolute nonsense.
            For starters; the Seljuk’s were an empire that inherited Persian bureaucracy and at least as well organised & advanced as the Byzantine empire was. They weren’t just some rag tag bunch of nomadic warlord’s.
            Constantinople itself was never under threat from the Seljuk empire. Constantinople was protected by considerable defences and in an easily defensible position. Yes the Seljuk’s slowly picked off Anatolia after Manzikert; but conquering Constantinople was another matter altogether. The Seljuk’s didn’t have enough total naval power across its massive empire, let alone in the Bosphorus to ever hope to assault Constantinople.

            When Constantinople fell in 1204; it was to an enormous naval force from Venice, the contemporary foremost naval power.
            When Constantinople was finally conquered by the Ottoman’s in 1453: It was a massive military undertaking, where it was attacked from all sides (the Ottomans had long prior taken control of the Balkans to the north & west) and yet still required that the Ottomans spend much time and resources building up a naval force and considerable cannon artillery. And this was when the city itself and its defences were a shadow of what it was before 1204.

            Your idea that the Crusaders came to the rescue of Byzantium is just pseudo history. No authorities state any such thing.

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        2. As for the common men, you neglect the fact that the First Crusade started with the first pogrom in Western Europe. This in no way is compatible with the idea that the First Crusade was defensive. Like it or not, there is a direct line (in terms of continuity) from the First Crusade to the Holocaust.
          Also I think the crusades are directly connected to the Northern campaigns (the one directed against the Estonians was authorized by the pope and called crusade) and the genocide on the cathars. In those regions did not live muslims back then.
          This means “defense against the muslims” relies on cherry picking.

          1. “the First Crusade started with the first pogrom in Western Europe”
            The so-called People’s Crusade was entirely against the general wishes of the papacy and was roundly condemned by them (antisemitism would continue to be strongly condemned both on the Second and Third Crusades). Indeed, the clergy in these German cities would go to great trouble to protect the Jews. Attacking the Jews wasn’t the cause of the First Crusade – therefore it doesn’t actually debunk the idea that the First Crusade was defensive. As for the Northern and Albigensian Crusades, they were altogether different phenomena from the Eastern ones and had separate causes. I’m just referring to the Crusades to the Levant (and Spain and Sicily) when I said the Crusades were defensive. This is because that is where they began. It was only later that they were applied in different areas.

          2. @DanielG, in answer to about everything you wrote: so what? It still means that the First Crusade was not a defensive war. You only demonstrated that the RCC lost control over the Crusades the moment (or even before) the participants left their homes. The pope never was a Chief Commander of the Military or something. In the Middle Ages war was a matter of “nobility”, which never was noble, but nearly always specialized in terrorizing.

            “therefore it doesn’t actually debunk”
            It does. As a famous author wrote: words are wind, including those of the pope. You confirm nicely that you need cherry-picking to defend your statement – you only accept the facts that suit you. I consider all relevant ones *). That’s what the scientific method requires, in stark contrast to apologetics and/or propaganda like yours.
            It seems to me that our disagreement ends here.

            *) So I’ll end with the only fact that does confirm the idea of Crusade = Defensive War, one that you didn’t mention afaIa. After the conquest of Jerusalem in 637 for centuries the islamic authorities hardly bothered christian pilgrims who visited the holy city. That had changed. So one goal of the crusaders was to protect the rights of those pilgrims.
            But all the other facts (the pillaging, the strategic and political choices, the results of the First Crusade etc.) cry “Offensive War”. Like all other crusades.
            Let me finish with a disclaimer. Aggressive behaviour like the crusaders’ is what to expect after about 700 years of barbaric invasions. So nothing I wrote can be used as an attack against christianity as a religion/ideology.

      3. >”But defence of the Byzantine Empire quickly faded as a major motivator for the leaders of the First Crusade…”

        It faded, but not because of indifference on the part of the Crusaders to Byzantium. I already mentioned this before but the Romans and Crusaders worked very well together at first. The leaders of the First Crusade were perfectly aware of the needs of Byzantium and while the crusade was reconquering southern Anatolia (and returning it to Alexios), a Byzantine fleet was simultaneously launching a campaign which liberated much of the Aegean and western Anatolia. This was obviously a two-pronged attack which demonstrates that the two sides were not ‘using each other for their own ends’ but working together. The break with Byzantium did not happen because they had diverging aims but because of the aforementioned “betrayal” at Antioch (from the perspective of the Crusaders). In other words, the fact that the two sides eventually split apart isn’t reason to think that the First Crusaders initially didn’t care about Byzantium.

        >”those in the popular mass movement wouldn’t have been able to tell you what the Empire was.”

        Not only is that unprovable, it is also patently ludicrous. They were passing through Constantinople accompanied by imperial soldiers–obviously they knew what the Empire was.

        >”I see little evidence of that.”

        I mean, you can find the sentiment in most versions of Urban’s speech:
        “From the confines of Jerusalem and the city of Constantinople a horrible tale has come forth […] that a race from the kingdom of the Persians […] has invaded the lands of the Christians and has depopulated them by the sword, pillage and fire […].The kingdom of the Greeks is now dismembered by them and deprived of territory…” — Robert of Rheims
        “We have heard, most beloved brethren […] how, with great hurt and dire sufferings our Christian brothers, members in Christ, are scourged, oppressed, and injured in Jerusalem, in Antioch, and the other cities of the East […], advance boldly, as knights of Christ, and rush as quickly as you can to the defense of the Eastern Church.” — Baldric of Dol
        “Hastening to the way, you must help your brothers living in the Orient, who need your aid […], the Turks, a race of Persians, have penetrated within the boundaries of [the Roman Empire]…” — Fulcher of Chartres
        In these accounts, the chroniclers are clearly suggesting that it is the *aggression* of the Turks on the Romans and on Eastern Christians in general which justifies the crusade. Therefore, in the perception of the Crusaders, the defensive aspect was a crucial part of crusading.

        >”There is nothing in the relevant source material expressing any great fears for Byzantium or any zeal to defend it.”

        I already mentioned the source material where the urge to defend Byzantium was explicitly stated.

        >”There were proto-crusading ideals…”

        So, let me ask you then: how is what happened in Spain or Sicily before the First Crusade not strictly a crusade? Because as I see it, if you have the same remission of sins, and you have the same “retaking long-lost Christian land”, you have a crusade. Also, crusading in Iberia went far beyond the event you mentioned. Popes, including Urban II had consistently supported (and blessed) attempts to “reconquer” Muslim Spain.

        >”An apocalyptic vision of liberating the Holy Places before the coming end times motivated people. Defending Christendom on its doorstep didn’t.”

        Ah yes, the Rubenstein thesis. Unfortunately, most historians have rejected the notion that apocalyptic visions were the primary motivation for crusading. And if defending Christendom on its doorstep didn’t motivate people, how does one explain the crusades in Spain, the Baltic, southern France, etc, after the First Crusade?

        1. It faded, but not because of indifference on the part of the Crusaders to Byzantium.

          It faded because the leaders of the First Crusade came to only be interested in Byzantium as an ally for their main objective – taking and holding the Holy Land. The idea that the protection of Byzantine frontiers and territory was their primary concern or even a major or significant objective of theirs is absurd. It wasn’t. And those things became even less of a focus once the polities in Outremer were established.

          Not only is that unprovable, it is also patently ludicrous. They were passing through Constantinople accompanied by imperial soldiers–obviously they knew what the Empire was.

          Read what I said again. Clearly I was talking about the motivations at the outset, when everyone was still in western Europe – thus my clear references to the motivations of “those who took the cross initially”. Again, the defence of Byzantium was the catalyst and so a motivator for Urban and of some initial interest to the leaders of the Crusade as it set out. But it would have been of little to no motivation to the bulk of the Crusaders. And, as I said, the mass movement known as the People’s Crusade would not have known what the hell the Eastern Empire was and would not have cared. The idea that the defence of Byzantum’s eastern flank or the loss of Anatolia was a burning issue for common knights in northern France or a great concern for peasants in the Rhineland in 1098 is what is “ludicrous”. They were fired by a zeal to release the Holy Places from the infidel and punish the enemies of Christ (including local Jews). They didn’t care at all about the border integrity of some Greek kingdom far away.

          I mean, you can find the sentiment in most versions of Urban’s speech

          Of course Urban’s speech talks about it. Again, it was the catalyst for the whole business and it was a motivator for Urban and part of the motivation for the leaders, initially. But it was NOT the reason a mass movement began. That was religion.

          How is what happened in Spain or Sicily before the First Crusade not strictly a crusade?

          Whether you could fit those conflicts into some definitions of “Crusade” or see them as proto-Crusades etc. is, again, irrelevant here. The question is why did Urban’s call in 1098 turn into a mass movement that launched several armies in the tens or even hundreds of thousands across thousands of kilometres against targets of little to no strategic value, whereas earlier appeals like that of Alexander in 1063 did not. The answer is … religious zeal. Religion was the primary motivator, everything else was secondary and/or contingent.

          Ah yes, the Rubenstein thesis. Unfortunately, most historians have rejected the notion that apocalyptic visions were the primary motivation for crusading.

          Historians have seen rising apocalypticism in Europe in the tenth and eleventh centuries as a major and important factor for a long time before Rubenstein’s book and continue to acknowledge this element in the wave of religious zeal that drove the Crusading movement long after 1098. It is one factor in the religiosity that made the early Crusading movement the mass phenomenon it was, while earlier flickers of similar impulses were not.

          how does one explain the crusades in Spain, the Baltic, southern France, etc, after the First Crusade?

          Easily. Once the Crusading ideal was established on the wave of religious zeal that started the whole thing, the ideal developed and could be and was directed in new ways. The idea that the Crusades were about defending western Europe against “Islam” is ridiculous. But the idea that helping Byzantium was anything more than an inciting element and catalyst among the leaders of the Crusade and was somehow the primary or even a major motivation is about as silly. No-one fired to take the cross in 1098 was shouting “we must help the Greeks!” It was retaking the Holy Places that fired them. Religion.

          And I’m getting tired of responding to the same points over and over. Unless you actually have something substantive to offer rather than repeating yourself yet again, drop it.

          1. > “It faded because the leaders of the First Crusade came to only be interested in Byzantium as an ally for their main objective – taking and holding the Holy Land.”

            But there’s an important fact which demolishes this entire argument: it was understood that all the lands which were conquered by the crusaders were supposed to be given back to the Emperor–that includes all of Syria and Jerusalem. All of the leaders understood this since they specifically swore oaths to turn themselves into the Emperor’s vassals and they took these oaths very seriously, surrendering all land which they took until they reached Antioch. Indeed, one anti-Roman crusader even tried to convince the other leaders to break their vows and take control of Antioch without giving it to Alexios’s representatives. If the crusaders didn’t care about the oath, they would have instantly agreed. However they responded that they would wait for the Emperor to arrive so that he could personally take command and lead them to Jerusalem. Only after the aforementioned (perceived) betrayal by Alexios did they break ties and take control of Antioch. Thus, defending Byzantium cannot possibly have been a ‘side-show’ as compared to retaking the Holy Land, because, initially, those two goals were one and the same in the minds of the crusaders.

            > “The idea that the protection of Byzantine frontiers and territory was […] a major or significant objective of theirs is absurd.”

            Okay. But then you have to explain why did the crusaders and the Romans work together as closely and as well as they did pre-Antioch? Because they weren’t just taking advantage of each other as you earlier implied. They were launching coordinated attacks together; Alexios had taught them about Turkish military tactics before they left Constantinople; he had showered them with gifts and received oaths of loyalty in return; a very sizable contingent led by Alexios’ foremost general accompanied the crusaders across southern Anatolia. All of these things imply that aiding Byzantium militarily was an extremely significant goal for the First Crusaders.

            > “…the mass movement known as the People’s Crusade would not have known what the hell the Eastern Empire was and would not have cared.”

            I am not aware of any sources to suggest that this is true. The Eastern Empire was a Christian empire. The preaching to the common people was filled with lurid claims about the aggression committed against eastern Christians and western pilgrims. The Seljuk attacks in Anatolia  would seem like precisely the thing that would have been mentioned. Is there any evidence that the peasants initially didn’t know about Byzantium?

            > “Of course Urban’s speech talks about it.”

            I should probably have been clearer. The reason I mentioned those accounts isn’t to prove that Urban said it (because we don’t know what Urban said) but to show what the chroniclers, who are ventriloquising Urban, believed the causes of the Crusade being. As evidenced, defending Eastern Christians, including Byzantium, was first on the list.

            > “But it was NOT the reason a mass movement began. That was religion.”

            Of course, religion was the cause. I’m not sure if you think I don’t think that.

            > “Historians have seen rising apocalypticism in Europe in the tenth and eleventh centuries as a major and important factor for a long time…”

            The best evidence for the motivations of the crusaders is ‘charter and will’ evidence for which it becomes clear that the penitential element is the foremost reason. Apocalyptic thought, by contrast, is much rarer.

            > “But the idea that helping Byzantium was anything more than an inciting element and catalyst among the leaders of the Crusade and was somehow the primary or even a major motivation is about as silly.”

            …except for the mountains of evidence which shows quite clearly that helping Byzantium was indeed a major motivator.

          2. We seem to be talking at cross purposes to some extent. You appear to be focused on the First Crusade and on the motivations of its leaders. In my article above and in my comments here I’ve been talking about the eastern Crusades generally and largely about the motivations of the average participant. The idea that the latter, in either the First Crusade or the subsequent expeditions, were highly motivated by defence of Byzantium is far fetched. Yes, the idea that “Christian lands” in the east had been lost and were being further encroached on was an element in the preaching program, but it was part of a theme of “freeing and defending the Holy Places” and hardly a major consideration for the average Crusader. Their motivations were religious and focused on the sites of pilgrimage and devotion, not the south-eastern borders of “the Greeks”.

            The leaders had some concern for the needs of their allies, but those oaths to the Byzantines fell by the wayside pretty quickly once that alliance began to break down. And once Jerusalem was secured, defending the Byzantine’s territory become no focus at all. Then we have a succession of Crusades where it remained a non-focus. So, as I keep saying, the Byzantine plea and the shaky alliance in the early stages of the First Crusade changes little. Territorial defence against the Seljuks was a minor factor. These campaigns were motivated by religious concerns.

          3. I think I should clarify that I think that the motivations of the Crusaders were certainly religious. I’ve never argued that the Latins’ interest in helping Byzantium was divorced from religious notions of aiding a Christian power. I was under the impression that what we were discussing was if the First Crusade could be classified as defensive. I think that depends on the level of prominence one chooses to give to Byzantium’s call for aid. If one placed a lot of prominence to Byzantium, then the First Crusade can quite clearly be termed defensive, or at least retaliatory. This is the perspective I find most convincing. If one chooses to de-emphasise Byzantium’s role, then it becomes much trickier to decide.

          4. If one chooses to de-emphasise Byzantium’s role …

            I’m not “de-emphasising” it. I’m putting it into its context, which in the article above in the eastern Crusades generally. In that context, any concern for the border integrity of the Byzantine Empire was extremely minor as a motivator for most Crusaders. It was, at most, a factor early in the First Crusade. And since we’ve been agreed from the start on what I was actually disputing – the absurd fantasy that the Crusades were defending western Europe against “Islam”, I think you’ve flogged your Byzantine dead horse enough.

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          5. “if the First Crusade could be classified as defensive”
            “Byzantium’s call for aid”
            How do you square this with

            a) the First Crusaders doing nothing to undo the consequences of the Battle of Manzikert, 1071 CE? They did not even try.
            b) the goal of the First Crusaders from the beginning being Jerusalem, which was of zero importance for Byzantium?

            You seem to assume that all christians automatically were allies and that all muslims were too. Both assumptions are wrong. When the First Crusaders reached Jerusalem the Seltsjuks already had lost the city to the Egyptian Fatimids – who were allies of Byzantium. Nice way to defend an empire, by going directly against its interests.
            You are the one who de-emphasizes the role of Byzantium by concentrating solely on the interests of the Crusaders and refusing to recognize that they clashed with the interests of Byzantium.

    2. @Liam: “So what is the truth about the Crusades?”
      The “defense against islam expansion” doesn’t explain
      1. the Baltic Crusades;
      2. the Albigensian Crusade;
      3. the christian Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar (El Cid, El Campeador) fighting for Yusuf al-Mu’taman ibn Hud in the same time Toledo was given up.

      At it’s very best it’s just an ad hoc explanation. This is confirmed by the double moral standard the supporters of this argument apply: “christians go to war, good, others go to war, evil”. In fact during the Middle Ages cities were usually better off when conquered by muslims than by christians.

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      1. The “defence against Muslim expansion” argument is focused on the origins of the Crusading movement and the initial wars in the eastern Mediterranean. So no, it doesn’t explain those other crusades, but it doesn’t intend to. The real flaw in this idea is that it is based on a totally anachronistic and retrospective view of what was happening. No-one in the late eleventh century was looking at a map of the Mediterranean with arrows on it marked by dates and saying “Wow, look at all this Muslim expansion over the last four centuries – we’d better defend ourselves by … attacking them”. They barely even had a conception of anything called “the Muslim world” as some kind of unity, let alone see it as encroaching on them. And if they had, the obvious place to fight it was on their doorstep – in Spain. Yet a few decades before the First Crusade a papal appeal for knights to fight in Spain got a minuscule response. So much for fearing Muslim enchroachment. There is no mention of this supposed fear anywhere in the sources. And attacking Jerusalem would have made no sense as a blow against this (imaginary) feared Islamic world. Baghdad, maybe. Cairo, certainly. Mecca, obviously. But Jerusalem? It fell in 1099 partially precisely because it wasn’t the Muslim centre of anything much. The whole idea is totally incoherent and not supported by anything of substance.

        during the Middle Ages cities were usually better off when conquered by muslims than by christians.

        That would be a hard assertion to maintain. Any city that fell to any conqueror was likely to be subject to brutal sack and, in some circumstances, massacres.

        1. “So no, it doesn’t explain those other crusades, but it doesn’t intend to.”
          Of course the “defense against islam expansion” argument doesn’t. Ad hoc arguments always intend to explain one specific phenomenon (or a specific set) instead of all relevant ones. That’s my point, nothing more.

          “That would be a hard assertion to maintain. ”
          Then I’d like to see the muslim counterparts of bloodbaths like the conquest of Jerusalem in 1099, Constantinopel 1204 and the already mentioned Albigensian Crusade. Also I’d like to see the christian counterpart of

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_military_jurisprudence#Ethics_of_warfare

          I’d like to add that I’m talking about the period until 1258, the Mongol conquest of Bagdad. Moreover I’d like to clarify that I’m not accusing christianity of being the cause.
          As for the rest of your comment, I never contradicted it.

          1. Ad hoc arguments always intend to explain one specific phenomenon (or a specific set) instead of all relevant ones. That’s my point, nothing more.

            Again, the argument is supposedly explaining the origin of the Crusades against Islam. So those other crusades are not “relevant ones”. As I said.

            Then I’d like to see the muslim counterparts of bloodbaths like the conquest of Jerusalem in 1099

            Acre in 1291.

            Constantinopel 1204

            Constantinople 1453.

            the already mentioned Albigensian Crusade

            Any inter-Muslim war you care to mention. There was no shortage of them.

            I’d like to see the christian counterpart of

            Medieval Europe had very similar conventions. The idea that Christians were somehow more savage and uncivilised than their Muslim enemies is total garbage. They were both of their time and remarkably similar in almost all respects.

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          1. I stopped at 1.27 mins when he said the crusades were a response to “Muslim conquest of … two thirds of the Christian world …. and later one became about defending Europe itself”. I’m not going to waste my time listening to the rest.

      2. “a) the First Crusaders doing nothing to undo the consequences of the Battle of Manzikert, 1071 CE? They did not even try.”
        The crusaders conquered basically all of southern Anatolia for Byzantium, including the crucial city of Nicaea. Philomelion, Iconium, Heraclea, Caesarea, and plenty of other places were all taken and given to the Byzantines. A Byzantine fleet simultaneously conquered much of the Aegean and western Anatolia. All in all, one thirds of Asia Minor had been restored to imperial control. Byzantium, which had been on the verge of collapse just before the First Crusade, was saved completely. These relations only broke down when Alexios abandoned the crusaders at Antioch, which was subsequently the first city not returned to him.

        “b) the goal of the First Crusaders from the beginning being Jerusalem, which was of zero importance for Byzantium?”
        Well, they had two goals: the first was to help Byzantium and the second, which grew in importance as the relationship with Byzantium frayed, was to retake Jerusalem, which was supposed to be given to imperial control after it was captured.

        “You seem to assume that all christians automatically were allies and that all muslims were too.”
        No, I didn’t assume that. The reason why I said that the Byzantines and crusaders were allies is because they literally were.

        “Egyptian Fatimids – who were allies of Byzantium”
        Do you have a source for that? And what type of alliance–a military one?

        1. I grant you Nicaea, a city not in Southern Anatolia. As for that area, called Antalya, it was reconquered by the Byzantines and recaptured by the Seltsjuks before and after the First Crusaders marched through it and left it behind. That’s the point: they did all this because they needed to before arriving at the Holy Land. This does nothing to justify “defense”, on the contrary.

          “Byzantium, which had been on the verge of collapse”
          This is simply not true. Its armies had suffered from serious defeats indeed, which is why Emperor Alexios wanted to hire mercenaries from Western Europe. Two years later, when they arrived in Constantinople, its situation already had improved. And the Emperor’s reaction was basically the same as towards the scum called People’s Crusaders: to get rid of them asap. Why would that be?

          https://www.ukessays.com/essays/history/relationship-between-the-byzantine-empire-and-the-crusades.php

          “Stealing, killing, and whatever they pleased.”
          Perhaps you enjoy defensive help like that and call such helpers an ally, but sensible people don’t.

          “which was supposed to be given to imperial control”
          Then why did this not happen? Because this a) was window dressing (if not a straightforward lie) by the First Crusaders, thieves and murderers as they were); and b) was not in Byzantine interest.

          “I didn’t assume that”
          After which you immediately ….. assume it.

          “Do you have a source for that?”
          Are you incapable of googling Byzanine Fatimid Relation? Are you not aware of the principle that the enemy of my enemy is my ally? But perhaps you are capable of googling Fatimid Seltsjuk War? Or are muslims in your dictionary even allies when killing each other, that framework so popular among right wingnuts?

          1. “I grant you Nicaea…”
            Do you also grant me all the other cities I mentioned (Philomelion, Iconium, Heraclea, Marash, Caesarea, etc)? These cities stretch across southern Asia Minor and into Cilicia and Armenia. They were all given to Byzantine governors. How can one possibly argue that the crusaders didn’t care about defending Byzantium when they spent a year roving through former Roman territories and returning them?

            “its situation already had improved”
            Incorrect. Byzantium’s security from the Seljuks had actually been very high in the 1080s, however by the 1090s, it had collapsed and the Empire was on the verge of oblivion. To quote historian Peter Frankopan: “In the past, it has been assumed that the Byzantine emperor sought military assistance from the west to undertake an ambitious and opportunistic reconquest of Asia Minor from a position of strength. The reality was very different. His call for help was a desperate last roll of the dice for a ruler whose regime and empire was teetering on the brink of collapse.”

            “to get rid of them asap”
            No, his reaction was to work with them in order to retake his empire. Alexios gave them gifts and advice. He sent a considerable contingent to lead them through Anatolia. He sends governors to take control of cities which the crusaders conquer. How is he in any way trying to get rid of them?

            What even is that link? It isn’t from any scholar or historian.

            “Then why did this not happen?”
            c) The crusaders took Jerusalem after the break with the Byzantines at Antioch. The reason why they broke is because Alexios did not send his army to rescue them when they were outnumbered and besieged by the Turks. The crusaders justifiably understood this as a betrayal which severed their oaths of fealty.

            “After which you immediately ….. assume it.”
            Can you quote precisely where I said that all Christians are allied and all Muslims are allied?

            “Are you incapable of googling Byzanine Fatimid Relation?”
            If it’s such a well known alliance you should easily be able to provide me a single source which proves it. Otherwise I have to assume that it doesn’t exist. And besides, even if it existed, by the time that the crusaders reached Jerusalem, they already had split from Byzantium so they weren’t under any obligation to not attack the Byzantine’s allies.

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  28. A problem I have with New Atheists is that they seem to be unsure of the point. As I understand it, atheism consists in not believing in God (not finding talk about the divine meaningful or useful), and anti-theism in asserting that there definitely is no God (talk about the divine is — provably? — false and /or harmful). But they seem to spend a lot of time talking about the evils of religion, without acknowledging that one thing that people with a personally important belief in the divine do is to claim that existing “religion” is corrupt/mistaken/blasphemous. Another example of the way in which the modern notion of “religion” is too problematic to be useful for dealing with all the stuff it points towards.

    1. Evangelicals like to say they follow “Jesus” say, or “Christianity”; not “religion.” But they do that as a bit of sophistry or evasion. Or Denial.

      They want to think of themselves as unique and uniquely blessed, by a singular great thing. Rather than being part of a generic and therefore common phenomenon; one known moreover to have some general characteristics – and typical flaws.

      To get around that dodge? I sometimes stop criticising “religion” to them. And just note very specific problems with very very specific things revered by them: with the Bible; God; and Jesus.

    2. This discussion seems a little off-topic, so I will be brief.

      But they seem to spend a lot of time talking about the evils of religion, …

      Atheists of my age (in the US) were taught that atheism itself led to evil or hurtful behavior, and a natural response is to point out that all human belief systems lead to evil or hurtful behavior, and being religious is no panacea there.

      1. With Tim’s current blog topics, we are invited to see positive as well as negative things, in both believers and nonbelievers/atheists.

        Probably a belief in the divine is not exempt from a look for both elements.

        I suppose we all need to be humble, and be prepared to see both good and bad things in ourselves. And even in our proposed highest callings.

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  29. This article is really well written and it communicates my argument clearly when i’m dealing with this kind of ‘skeptics’.

    I’d share my anecdotes in Indonesia’s struggle in mid-20th century. At that time, Soeharto was the absolute ruler of the nation. Soeharto wasn’t religious, he is a strict right-wing utilitarian. He came from ‘abangan’ (more flexible muslims) family and was educated in secular Japanese and Dutch settings.

    In his rule, he actually disliked polygamy, which was traditional muslims do, repressed muslim parties, and people were encouraged to not display too much overt religious beliefs. He even made a homosexual person a minister at one time (it was considered taboo with religious standard).

    That’s why scholars here are careful to distinguish ‘Islam’ and ‘Soeharto’s Nationalism’ the former are obviously religious, the latter are secular. Soeharto only began to act more religious when his political allies desert him.

    The thing is as you said, there is no unique reason to violence. Both Islam and Soeharto have streaks of violence in purging Communist (their political rivals) but they have different reason in doing that. Soeharto did it because purely of political rivalry (and ‘national security’) while Islam do it, obviously because of religion. His ethics actually mirrors more secular thinkers like Singer and Harris, which is based on pragmatism and utilitarian-biased ethics.

    I think what Hitchens, Dawkins, et al. did not consider in their rhetoric is the ethical foundation of how religious people act. New Atheists believe in utilitarian ethics, which emphasis results over character value (which is i think emphasis more on idealism) and duty (which is collectivist/social bound rather than individualistic). This is why they tend to have more outrage towards Abrahamic religion, which i think by essential, is either Character/Duty based. I think secular ethics are biased towards physical knowledge which in turn, leads to utilitarian ethics.

    Being raised utilitarinistic myself (i’m now biased towards Virtue Ethics), i could understand how they think. A guy with duty/character based moral values would outrage less against Mother Teresa than a people like Hitchens.

    1. You may be right to a large extent, but I’d like to point out that the politics of the utilitarian/pragmatist Harris probably will result in the opposite of what he claims to aim for. You may praise Mother Teresa for her Virtue Ethics, but in the end that didn’t help the poor very much she took responsibility for. There is a nice christian saying: the road to Hell is paved with good intentions (christianity is a lot more utilitarian than many adherents want to admit; after all the greatest and most important reward is going to Heaven).
      Being a utilitarian myself I never raged against either, exactly because that would be totally useless. I have criticized them though and I guess I criticized Harris more than Mother Teresa. Because I think that more useful too.

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      1. As we question all things, we arrive at the eternally questioning mindset of academics. Including say, ethicists.

        There I support a fairly utilitarian ethic. Though we have to address a religious critique of that position; against a “works”-centered ethic. Which however is not hard to question, even in a biblical mindset: “by their fruits you shall know them”, etc..

        Fruits, works, signs, deeds, and proofs, visible with our literal eyes, here on this physical earth

  30. Where do these numbers come from? Have there been “only” 1,763 wars in recorded human history? Also, wars can be fought for more than one reason. It’s easy to justify to one’s people a war against the heretics or unbelievers, but didn’t the militantly Catholic Louis XIV intervene on the side of the Protestant princes in the Thirty Years War? The truth is that wars start for many reasons and are justified (and the troops rallied) by many often other reasons. Was the War of Jenkin’s Ear fought because of an ear, the Trojan War because of an adulterous woman?

    1. Also organized religion is by definition politics. That’s one reason that the idea that religion is uniquely or particularly prone to violence doesn’t make sense. Nor does the opposite idea.

  31. Hey Tim, I know that you already kind of went over some of the specific events in history that were allegedly caused by religious violence such as the crusades or 9/11 but I was wondering if you could do an article or articles about specific events and not just all of them entirely like debunking myths about the inquisition or something because I think that would be interesting.

  32. One of your best pages of all time, I think. In any case, I wonder, did Pope Urban II really give out forgiveness for all past sins for the well-prepared knights and barons that went to the Holy Land to fight for the Eastern Roman Empire?

  33. Aye Tim, I once saw a YouTube video with the thesis statement that racism had its roots, or at least some of them within the Crusades. This is immediately dubious as racism and the obsessive racial hierarchy set up Enlightenment scholars was an exclusive Early Modern thing, with resources from the New World wholly separate from the Crusades. (Also, the notion of race did not exist during the Crusade. It was made to justify slavery if I recall) What are your thoughts on the actual origins of racism and the Medieval relationship to it?

    1. The idea that modern conceptions of race didn’t emerge until the early modern period has been questioned recently, most extensively by Geraldine Heng in The Invention of Race in the European Middle Ages (2018). Here is a summary of the more recent work on the question.

      1. I see. All of this is absolutely fascinating. Would it be more appropriate it say then, that the elaborate racial hierarchy established to justify the slave trade and the later self-identifications into categories such as “white” or “black” is a product of the Early Modern Period and onwards? Also, I would like to know your exact thoughts on the thesis I have dubious thoughts on above.

  34. Hello Tim! I was looking for reviews on the Rubenstein book you mentioned and I ended up finding this post on your website (apparently Google really likes your website as it always recommends it to me 😅). Before reading the book I researched a little about Rubenstein and found an interview that Howard Burton did with him and ended up getting discouraged to read his book when I got to the following excerpt:
    “In the crusade class as I taught it this semester—it comes out a little differently every time—we start at a point in the century when the Muslim world was—as is well known and generally recognized—far more sophisticated, cosmopolitan, wealthier in every sort of measurable cultural level than the West. That’s the place where you would have wanted to be, had you been alive in the 11th century. Even with the advent of the Seljuk Turks, it’s still the real cosmopolitan, exciting world. European world at that time, by comparison, is coming out of a protracted period of economic crisis.The education level is low, the level of cultural achievement—in spite of a few luminaries like St. Anselm—is pretty low as well; and there’s very little understanding of the larger world. The sense of the enemy that they have is a distorted reflection of themselves: this dangerous, anti-Christian, apocalyptic enemy that has to be faced”.
    The knowledge about the Crusades that I acquired when I started reading about the subject is that at a certain time there were Muslim rulers who did not accept Christian pilgrimages to Jerusalem as their predecessors did and therefore were hostile to these Christians. In this scenario, the “crusade” (I’m putting it in quotes because they didn’t use that name at the time, right) had the initial idea of making an armed pilgrimage to protect Christians who made pilgrimages to Jerusalem and to protect the holy places that were supposedly risk of being desecrated by non-Christians. At first when I was presented with “Rubenstein’s thesis” (I’m putting it in quotes because I’ve read it since other people have done this thesis before him), I thought he was going to talk about how an “apocalyptic image” was used to instigate people to participate in these armed pilgrimages and not that Christians were not as “sophisticated, cosmopolitan” as the Muslim world was. I’m just tired of finding articles and books that sometimes represent Catholics or Muslims as the “villains”. The little I know about the subject, I know that it is not possible to summarize the events in such a simple way. As a Catholic I’m sick of the radtrad and I’m also sick of the anti-Catholics talking about crusades. I usually talk a lot with “leftists” (i don’t know how to exactly translate the names of the political spectrum. sorry) and what I can say is that on the left: either there are people who hate religion and are going to be Islamophobic and anti-Catholic or there will be people (neoatheists, new ages, neopagans) who just hate Catholics. So I come across this idea a lot that Catholics were fanatical barbarians attacking peaceful Muslims under the command of bloodthirsty popes full of power and fighting for more power. However, even fighting this representation, I refuse to accept the “version” in which Catholics are the “oppressed” and Muslims the “villains”.
    Anyway, based on your knowledge: can the crusades be defined as a war promoted by barbarian, uncivilized and fanatical Christians against the sophisticated, cosmopolitan and peaceful Muslim world or is this just an anti-Catholic rhetoric used by some people who want to make a counterpoint to the narrative who uses Islamophobic arguments to describe the crusades? (I emphasize the “some people” because I know that other people counter the accusations against Muslims without pointing out “villains” in this story). Do you have bibliographies that you can recommend to me to understand the subject? And… is there any author you definitely wouldn’t recommend to understand the subject? (I know Rodney Stark is definitely not an option)

    1. can the crusades be defined as a war promoted by barbarian, uncivilized and fanatical Christians against the sophisticated, cosmopolitan and peaceful Muslim world

      That would be a complete oversimplification and a distortion of what happened. The Crusaders were not as barbaric and uncivilised as that claim makes out. And the Muslims were not as peaceful and urbane as it claims either.

      1. Looking for books to study one the subject I found a site called “Miles Strenuus”, but I don’t know if this site is “reliable”. My “doubt” about the blog is that it has too many references to Andrew Holt. I’m told that Holt (like Madden) is a member of an American network of conservative Christian historians, so… I’m a little wary of trusting this source. On the other hand, Holt has a book called “Seven Myths of the Crusades” with Alfred J Andrea that seems to be very well accepted by “non-conservatives”, so I’m not sure if my fears should remain. Do you have any thoughts on the blog, please?

        https://www.milesstrenuus.com/2015/02/09/the-crusades-principles-and-perspectives/
        https://www.milesstrenuus.com/2017/06/03/what-is-a-crusade/
        https://www.milesstrenuus.com/2017/08/07/what-is-a-crusade-part-2-a-response-to-matt-gabriele/

        1. I’ve come across Daniel Franke recently on Twitter where he did a bad job of trying to defend the idea that the Shroud of Turin is not a fake. So I’m wary of him on any topic like this, as he seems to have a highly conservative perspective and I think he’s a Catholic. The best way to approach this subject is to read the extensive literature on the origins of the Crusading ideal. Nowhere in the sources historians of that subject draw on do we find anyone saying “We are under threat from ‘Islam’ and so have to attack them to defend Europe!”

  35. I’m aware of this conservative-far-right narrative that thinks the crusades were to defend Europe, it’s quite popular with radtrad. I don’t know if the term “radtrad” has an English translation, but these are Catholics who claim to uphold “Catholic tradition” (or at least uphold what they think a Catholic tradition is). Radtrad are usually people who have “recently converted” to Catholicism (I’ve never tried to find out what the conversion “process” was like, but I think I should), and are pretty excited about adapting their religion to their ideologies and always quote a ” scholar”/”expert” to support the narrative that “the ruthless Muslims invaded Europe and the crusaders fought them”. In view of this, I began to look for serious historians who would address this issue in order to be able to oppose the radtrad. I think that even if they don’t convince themselves that their narratives are wrong (I think this is the most likely to happen) I can at least gain knowledge. Tyerman was one of the first historians on this subject that I was aware of and Rubenstein was more recent. I was a bit put off reading Rubenstein’s book after reading this interview (by the way you can find it as “Apocalypse Then: The First Crusade: A Conversation with Jay Rubenstein (Ideas Roadshow Conversations) – Howard Burton”). Do you have any other historians to recommend, please?

    1. The classic monograph on this is Carl Erdmann’s The Origin of the Idea of Crusade (1978). More recently there’s Tyerman’s Invention of the Crusades (1998), whcih traces conceptions of the Crusades from their origin to the 1990s. But pretty much any academic book on the Crusades goes into how they arose and how they were perceived.

  36. This article brings back memories for me of the Iraq war. I well recall almost 20 years ago and seeing this Christopher Hitchens, so esteemed in the USA, extolling the US-led coalition over Ba’athist (thus secular) Iraq as something like “a victory for secularism”.
    Due to his prior critique’s of Televangelism, Mother Theresa and Bill Clinton: I was aware of whom Hitchens was before this amazingly idiotic and irrational public statement. Needless to say; this put my personal estimation of him in a very low place of scorn & disdain. And I don’t think it’s risen much in the two decade’s since. I suppose, as much as I tried to resist, it prejudiced me against much of the “new atheists” who were holding him and Sam Harris (the justification for whose veneration has always escaped me more than that for Hitchens) and Richard Dawkins and some modern philosopher called Daniel Dennett as “4 horsemen of the atheist apocalypse”. Wank wank. What was Christopher Hitchens actually beyond an investigative journalist and activist? Maybe I’m being harsh, but for me his stance over the Iraq invasion is something that showed up his true intellectual level. I’m aware that he earned a degree at Oxford and I don’t assume he was stupid, but he wasn’t any authority in much. His support for the Iraq invasion boiled down to nothing more than his irrational prejudices. I think he was held in such reverence among Americans because (by their standards) he was so well spoken.

    But on another topic: I find an interesting parallel with how the feudal fiefdom’s that adopted Protestantism were usually those who had been more controlled by the institutions of the Catholic Church.
    It came to my notice a long time ago; that communist revolutions occurred in places where there was a massive disproportionate allocation of wealth and prosperity between the ruling classes and the working/peasant classes, and where there was little to no investment in anything resembling social welfare or public services or relief. It’s long been a nice counter to reactionary right wingers who get up in arms over any social investment as “moving towards communism”…

  37. Hi. You left a comment under my comment questioning the view that Constantinople was threatened by the Seljuqs. So do you really find it unbelievable that a force which conquered virtually all of Anatolia, could possibly threaten Constantinople. Nicaea, the capital of Rum, was literally right next to Constantinople. The notion that it is ridiculous for the Romans to be genuinely and sincerely threatened by the conquests is nonsensical.

    I will direct you to the works of Peter Frankopan in support of this statement: “In the past, it has been assumed that the Byzantine emperor sought military assistance from the west to undertake an ambitious and opportunistic reconquest of Asia Minor from a position of strength. The reality was very different. His call for help was a desperate last roll of the dice for a ruler whose regime and empire was teetering on the brink of collapse.”

    “Your idea that the Crusaders came to the rescue of Byzantium is just pseudo history.”
    This is an absolutely hysterical claim to make. We know that the crusaders came to Byzantium’s aid because … the emperor literally called for aid and the pope sent crusaders.

    “For starters; the Seljuk’s were an empire that inherited Persian bureaucracy and at least as well organised & advanced as the Byzantine empire was.” Literally what does this have to do with anything? Is this supposed to mean that the Romans shouldn’t have cared about their empire being conquered? Also, its not even true.

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    1. That’s a pretty weird argument. Most of it is quibbling about semantics. The only substantive argument is the claim that because various wars were “explained and justified” via religion, we can blame religion for them. This is ridiculous. In the pre-modern world, pretty anything you can think of was “explained and justified” via religion. That doesn’t make religion the cause of these things. The writer is confused.

        1. Yes. The writer seems to have got a bee in their bonnet over me and so wrote a couple of rambling responses to my articles here. Then they appear to have tried to get a blog about this imaginary “neotheist” problem gong. Then lost interest when no-one cared. I vaguely recall some shouty commenter here using the same term a while ago.

    2. I took a quick look. Might look more later (and post a comment) if I can find the time (and when I’m prepared for its very unattractive layout and usage of black & white).
      But one thing that got me smirking was this term this author “neotheist”. What on earth is that supposed to be?
      Oh and I shook my head with the smirk up when he/she declared Richard Dawkins “the icon of new atheism”. I always thought him an odious pillock when he steps outside of biology and starts on religion…

      1. “Neotheist” is a term this weird person invented as a way of trying to turn “New Atheist” back on critics like me. “Neo” means new. So apparently I’m a “New Theist”. Which makes no sense, given I’m not a theist at all. The writer isn’t terribly smart, you see.

        1. I don’t wish to give too much attention to a deservedly very insignificant blogger. But what had me amused was the usage of the term “neotheist”, as to apply it correctly would mean that there is some newly defined theistic movement, something mysteriously none of the rest of us have heard of.
          But my question of what it is supposed to mean was rhetorical, I understood that this person came up with this idiotic term to apply to whomever that is this bee in their bonnet (you) as a counter to “new atheist”. And that this blogger clearly lacks even the rudimentary critical thinking skills to fathom that the term should only be applied to someone who has/had belief in deities of some sort (which their target does not necessarily).
          Cheers.

  38. If the religious wars of Europe are to be raised, methinks one is rather remiss if one does not also mention the Peace of Westphalia, in which the various people gathered voluntarily (as far as I know) and agreed (as far as I know) to _stop_ killing each other in the name of God or Whatever, which is something rather unusual for a bunch of humans so tribal they will come up with all sorts of reasons to be horrible to one another.

    1. Nearly everyone got tired. Btw the Thirty (and also the Eighty) Years War was more than a religious war or the catholic French wouldn’t have sided with the protestant Swedes against the catholic Habsburgs.

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