Jesus Mythicism 6: Paul’s Davidic Jesus in Romans 1:3

Jesus Mythicism 6: Paul’s Davidic Jesus in Romans 1:3

The opening of Paul’s letter to the Romans contains a statement that Jesus was a descendant of King David (Romans 1:3). Most Jesus Mythicists claim that Paul only believed in Jesus as a celestial figure, not an earthly, human and recently historical one. So, as usual, they have to strive hard to find ways to make a text fit their convoluted theories. The results are typically contrived and unconvincing.

Paul Romans 1:3

Sometime in the late 50s AD Paul wrote a letter to the Jesus Sect community in Rome. It differs from most of his other surviving letters in that he was addressing a community he had not yet visited, rather than one he had founded or at least knew well personally. So it opens with an introduction that is something of a credal statement and an apologia:

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for the sake of his name, including yourselves who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

(Romans 1:1-6)

This is a densely-packed statement and is clearly meant to be so. But it contains an element which is of particular interest to the issue of the historicity of Jesus. Paul says that Jesus “was descended from David according to the flesh” (γενομένου ἐκ σπέρματος Δαυὶδ κατὰ σάρκα). Since the “David” in question is the ancient king of Israel and Paul specifies Jesus’ descent from him “according to the flesh”, this seems to be a unequivocal indication that Paul believed Jesus was, at least in one respect, both a human and a descendant from a human ancestor. This is uncontroversial and actually fairly unremarkable, given that while Paul seems to have understood Jesus to have also had a heavenly pre-existence (see Phil 2:5-7), he makes other references to Jesus as an earthly, historical human being (see Gal 4:4, 3:16, Rom 9:4-5 and 15:12).

At least, this is unremarkable for most scholars. Most Jesus Mythicists, however, claim that Paul did not believe in an earthly, historical and human Jesus at all. They claim that he saw Jesus as a purely celestial being; one that takes on a fleshly form in the heavens and is crucified, died and rose from the dead there, without ever coming to earth. In this way they explain how Paul could talk about Jesus doing all these very human and earthly sounding things while still claiming his letters as evidence for their supposed Mythic Jesus form of proto-Christianity.

This is made slightly easier for them by the fact that Paul, like the writers of similar epistles after him, seems little interested in the biography of Jesus and is more concerned with theological aspects of the Jesus story. But there are still elements in Paul’s seven undisputed letters that do not fit at all well with the Mythicist reading. Paul says Jesus was born as a human, of a human mother and born a Jew (Galatians 4:4). He he says he was a descendant of Abraham (Gal 3:16), of Israelites (Romans 9:4-5) and of Jesse (Romans 15:12). He refers to teachings Jesus made during his earthly ministry on divorce (1Cor. 7:10), on preachers (1Cor. 9:14) and on the coming apocalypse (1Thess. 4:15). He mentions how he was executed by earthly rulers (1Cor. 2:8) that and he says he had an earthly, physical brother called James who Paul himself had met (Galatians 1:19 – see also Jesus Mythicism 2: “James the Brother of the Lord”).

Mythicists have plenty of ways to reinterpret these bothersome passages or find other ways to dismiss them. The problem is that their arguments are, as usual, contorted, ad hoc or rely on dubious readings and so have been found unconvincing by the vast majority of scholars, Christian or otherwise. But the reference to Jesus as “descended from David according to the flesh” has proven a particularly thorny problem for Mythicists and they have had to work hard to jam it into the framework of their theory. Their efforts are varied but none of them are convincing and one prominent effort in particular is so ridiculously convoluted as to be quite laughable.

Paul writing Romans 1:3

Mythicist Tactic 1: Accommodation

One way Mythicists have tried to deal with Paul’s statement in Romans 1:3 is to accept it as it is, but read it in light of their theories. Given that Paul uses a common formulaic expression about ancestry and descent (see below) and refers to a human king who Paul clearly believed to be historical, this is very difficult to reconcile with the idea of a celestial Jesus who has no earthly human existence. The references here are decidedly earthly. But Mythicists are nothing if not creative thinkers.

One Mythicist who has been creative in his interpretation of Romans 1:3 is the Canadian writer Earl Doherty. Doherty is an amateur enthusiast whose reworking of earlier Mythicist theories is arguably responsible for the recent resurgence of Mythicism among other atheists: one of a number of fringe and contrarian ideas that have been given a boost in acceptance thanks to the peculiar culture of the internet. Doherty claims to have a bachelors degree “in Ancient History and Classical Languages”, and developed his Mythicist thesis as a hobby, contributing to online fora on the topic and then expanding his ideas on a website in the late 1990s. In 1997 he published an article summarising his views (“The Jesus Puzzle: Pieces in a Puzzle of Christian Origins”, Journal of Higher Criticism, 4 (2), Fall 1997). In 1999 his arguments were presented in detail in a book The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ?, published by Canadian Humanist Publications. He then reworked this book further and released a self-published updated version in 2005. Finally, he expanded his arguments further in a final book on the subject, Jesus: Neither God Nor Man – The Case for a Mythical Jesus (2009).

Doherty’s arguments have not been well received by professional scholars, who see them as typical of the work of an enthusiastic amateur who works backward from an a priori conclusion and then finds evidence which he thinks fit his ideas – which is precisely the opposite of how scholarly analysis should be done. But he was the doyen of the new wave of Mythicist contrarians for some years and his 2002 book seems to be the work that convinced the current standard bearer of the theory – the inevitable Dr Richard Carrier PhD. – who has further reworked some of Doherty’s weaker arguments or rejected them in favour of his own. Few to none of the current crop of Mythicist apologists use Doherty’s arguments about Romans 1:3 and it is easy to see why.

Doherty claims that Paul did not believe in a recent, historical, human and earthly Jesus, but rather in a purely celestial one who never appeared on earth at all. He argues that Paul’s references to Jesus, properly understood, are to a heavenly figure revealed purely via visions and interpretations of the Scriptures, who took fleshly form in the sub-lunar sphere and was crucified, died and rose from the dead there, not on earth. This way of dealing with Paul’s references to his nature “according to the flesh”, to him being crucified, dying and being buried etc., all while maintaining these are somehow not references to an earthly human, is not original to Doherty. It has its roots in the early twentieth century Mythicist theories of Paul-Louis Couchoud (1879-1959), a French physician and poet who wrote several books trying to boost Mythicism. Doherty attempts a comprehensive working out of this idea, but runs into difficulty with stubbornly earthly Pauline elements like Romans 1:3.

For Doherty, Paul’s main source of knowledge about Jesus is not any memories of him or teachings about him as an earthly and recently deceased human prophet and teacher given to Paul from those who knew him, but almost entirely from his reading of the Jewish Scriptures:

In more than one passage, Paul tells us quite clearly that he has derived his information and gospel about the Christ from the scriptures. In 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, the fact that “Christ died for our sins,” that “he was raised on the third day,” is “according to the scriptures.” The latter phrase, as pointed out earlier, can have the meaning of ‘as we learn from the scriptures.’ In Romans 16:25-6, Paul (or perhaps a later pseudo-Pauline editor) proclaims his gospel

‘about Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept in silence for long ages but now revealed, and made known through prophetic writings at the command of God…’

Here the words plainly say that Christ is a mystery that has been hidden for a long time, but is now revealed by God through a new reading of scripture, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

(Doherty, Jesus: Neither God Nor Man – The Case for a Mythical Jesus, p. 85)

Paul certainly does emphasise that Jesus and the significance of his death and resurrection were foretold by the prophets and the Scriptures. This is hardly surprising, given that the idea of a Messiah who dies as a redeeming sacrifice was (contrary to Mythicist claims) not what was expected and Paul and the rest of the early Jesus Sect had to refer to their holy texts to argue that this was, in fact, what was meant to happen. But Doherty’s repeated claim that Paul says “he has derived his information and gospel about the Christ from the scriptures” is nonsense – Paul says no such thing. Nowhere does he say he got his “information” about Jesus this way, only that who Jesus was and what he did can only be understood in the light of those Scriptures. Doherty constantly lards his arguments with this assumption, but it is not one found in the Pauline evidence.

Doherty refers to a range of Old Testament texts which are, to this day, held up by Christian apologists as “proof” Jesus’ death and resurrection had long been foretold by the prophets, just as Paul uses them in his letters: the “Suffering Servant” passages of Isaiah 52:13-53:12, Hosea 6:2, Zechariah 12:10 etc. (see Doherty, pp 85-6). But in Doherty’s hands these are not Paul using these texts to argue against the standard expectations of the Messiah, but rather him appealing to them because at least some Jews already saw them as referring to a dying and rising Messianic redeemer. This is another claim made more as wishful thinking than as solid argument. Doherty does not bother to actually show any evidence pre-Christian Jews read these texts this way other than rather feebly suggesting they … may have:

Although it is often pointed out that mainstream Jews of the time drew no doctrine of a sacrificed Messiah from their sacred writings, it does not follow that no one did.

(Doherty, p. 85)

And this about the extent of his argument on this critical point. This is weak stuff.

But it is here that Doherty runs up against Romans 1:3 and its statement (as interpreted by all scholars who are not part of the tiny Mythicist fringe) that Jesus was the descendant of a human, earthly king. How can this fit with Doherty’s purely celestial, entirely non-earthly Messiah?

At the very beginning of the collection of New Testament epistles, in the opening verses of Romans, lies a statement which many declare requires us to go no further. Even if Paul were never to breathe another word about Jesus of Nazareth, they say, in verse 3 lies something which unmistakably points to the concept of an historical man in Paul’s view of the Christ.

(Doherty, p. 87)

Indeed. Yet Doherty then declares with characteristic boldness “yet the situation is quite the opposite” How?

He begins by focusing on the statements made before the reference to David in Romans 1:1-3, which he translates as:

‘Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised (or, announced [NEB]) beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who… [RSV]’

(Quoted in Doherty, p. 87)

He then declares that the “gospel” Paul refers to is wholly revealed via Scripture, not “from other men, not from Jesus himself through channels of apostolic transmission” (p. 88). Then he claims:

God in scripture had looked ahead – not to Jesus, but to the gospel that told of him. How could Paul present things in this bizarre way? He is telling the Roman Christians that scripture contains the forecast of his apostolic gospel, not the forecast of Jesus and his life. …. As Paul presents it, scripture was not the prophecy of Jesus’ life and activities. It was the prophecy of the gospel which told of those activities.

(Doherty, p. 88)

This is hopelessly confused and typical of what happens when an amateur goes hunting for ways to make the texts fit their private theory. Doherty has misunderstood the word “gospel” for its common modern usage – a reference to the accounts of Jesus’ “activities”. But Paul is using the original term εὐαγγέλιον – literally, “good news”. The “gospel” or “good news” that Paul declares here and everywhere else in his writings is the news that Jesus has been “declared to be Son of God with power …. by resurrection from the dead” (Romans 1:4). This is the news that Paul has spent his career bringing to the Gentiles, including the Romans he is addressing in this summation of his whole message.

So in his desperation at finding a way to make Romans 1:1-4 fit his thesis, Doherty has mistakenly read the “gospel” as a reference to the accounts that tell us of “Jesus’ life and activities” and so leaps acrobatically from this erroneous reading to the conclusion that “[i]n this picture, no life of Jesus has intervened between the writing of scripture and the revelation of the gospel to Paul”. So by these gymnastics, he waves any idea of an earthly Jesus away, bravely declaring “[w]herever or whenever the activities of the Son had taken place, they were not located in history between the two events” (p. 88).

Having proceeded by this muddleheaded argument that assumes “gospel” refers to “[accounts of] Jesus’ life and activities” and not the good news of his redeeming death and subsequent elevation as Messiah, Doherty turns to the tricky reference to his descent from David. He translates Romans 1:3-4 as:

‘3…who arose from the seed of David according to the flesh (kata sarka), 4 and was designated Son of God in power according to the spirit (kata pneuma) of holiness (or, the holy spirit) after his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.’

(Quoted in Doherty, p. 88)

This, he claims “gives us two items of this gospel about the Son”, still thinking that “gospel” means “[accounts of] Jesus’ life and activities”. He then declares these statements to be “frustratingly obscure” and says that “according to the flesh” is “a seemingly vague and particularly cryptic phrase”.

Of course, it only becomes “vague”, “obscure” and “cryptic” once you have just gone to heroic lengths to remove an earthly, human and recent historical career for Jesus and so now have to puzzle out what this reference to him having an aspect “according to the flesh” might mean. Anyone who does not create this problem for themselves can see what the phrase and its counterpart “according to the spirit” mean quite easily: Jesus was a descendant of David in his human aspect (“according to the flesh”) but was elevated to the spiritual status of Son of God (“according to the spirit”) by his resurrection from the dead. Problem solved. Doherty’s “obscure” and “cryptic” puzzle is one of his own creation, forced on him by his a priori conclusions.

Doherty prefaces his solution to the tangle he has created for himself by asking:

Is this [reference to Jesus as the seed of David] a piece of historical information? If so, it is the only one Paul ever gives us, for no other feature of Jesus’ human incarnation appears in his letters.

(Doherty, p. 89)

This is yet another of Doherty’s remarkable declarations, given that Paul actually gives us several such references. As already noted, we have Gal 4:4, 3:16, Rom 9:4-5 and 15:12 which refer to Jesus being born of a Jewish woman, as a descendant of Israelites and a descendant of David’s father Jesse. Mythicists, including Doherty, have convoluted ways to wave off these references as well, but Doherty just blithely ignores them here.

Doherty then tries to find a way to dismiss this reference to earthly, human descent:

In fact, [Romans 1:3] follows, grammatically and conceptually, out of what Paul has just said: it is an element of the gospel about God’s Son which has been announced in scripture. Paul has told us clearly and unequivocally that this is where he has obtained this piece of information. In verses 1-2, he has focused on the message to be found in the sacred writings. Why would he suddenly step outside that focus and interject a biographical element about Jesus derived from historical knowledge—then return to scripture for his second element?

(Doherty, p. 89)

But Paul has not told us “told us clearly and unequivocally” that he “obtained this piece of information” purely from Scriptures – that is something Doherty has simply decided to read into what Paul says. So he is not “suddenly [stepping] outside” any focus purely on Scriptural information. He considers the gospel – the “good news” – that Jesus was a descendant of David elevated to the status of Son of God by his resurrection something foretold by Scripture. Doherty cannot have that, because it spoils his whole thesis, so he tangles up the text in his assumptions so that he can arrive where he started – his assumed purely celestial and spiritual Jesus:

Paul did not need to appeal to history here, for scripture was full of predictions that the Messiah would be descended from David. In reading these, Paul would have applied them to his own version of the Messiah, the Christ who was a spiritual entity, not a human one.

(Doherty, p. 89)

So somehow Doherty has to transform a reference to Jesus as coming from “the seed of David, according to the flesh” into a reference to a non-earthly Jesus via some hand-waving about how Paul has “applied” references to the Messiah’s descent from David to this purely “spiritual entity”. His sleight of hand here is not exactly impressive:

Was it possible for the divine Son who operated entirely in the spiritual realm to be “of David’s seed,” and in a way that was “in the sphere of the flesh”? I suggest that the answer is yes, and that Christ’s “arising from David” is a characteristic of Christ in the spirit world, a mystical and mythological feature.

(Doherty, p. 89)

To support this Doherty has to develop his ideas about how Jesus existed in a “sub-lunar fleshly realm” that allows him to do all kinds of earthly sounding things (be crucified, die, be buried) while still not doing any of them on earth. He does this over many pages before finally returning to the thorny issue of Jesus being “of David’s seed”.

First he quotes Romans 9:6-8:

‘It is not the children of the flesh (tes sarkos) [i.e., children of Abraham in natural physical descent] who are the children of God; rather, the children of the promise are reckoned as (Abraham’s) seed.’

(Quoted in Doherty, p. 168)

He argues that the reference to “the children of the promise” is to Gentiles and he refers to Galatians 3:29 where Paul clearly does talk of the Gentiles being, figuratively, “Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to the promise”. So by this typically convoluted route, he decides that because Paul could refer to Gentiles being figuratively “of the seed of Abraham”, Jesus too could be, mystically, “of the seed of David” in Romans 1:3.

The only fly in Doherty’s ointment here is that the Romans 9:6-8 reference to “the children of the promise” that he relies on clearly makes a distinction between those who are descendants of Abraham “of the flesh” and those who are figuratively so as “children of the promise”. The former are Jews who actually are literal descendants of Abraham. And, rather awkwardly for Doherty, that troublesome Romans 1:3 reference to Jesus as a descendant of David specifies that this descent was “according to the flesh”. But the ever inventive Doherty is not daunted:

Why does Paul in Romans 1:3 use the term “flesh,” “kata sarka”? Because here Christ has a relationship with the inferior world of humanity. The phrase specifies it as ‘in relation to a human being,’ ‘in relation to flesh.” (If Paul were speaking of a human Jesus who was reputedly of the house of David, whether by father or mother, he would have had no need to note that it was by physical lineage, no need for “kata sarka.” That would have been undeniable.)

(Doherty, p. 168)

Again, this is weak stuff – the very passages Doherty uses for support show that Paul’s references to “the flesh” are biological. So it makes far more sense that he uses the term “according to the flesh” in Romans 1:3 because Paul is highlighting both his human status as a descendant of the ancestor of the expected Messiah (“according to the flesh” ) and his spiritual status as the exalted Son of God, raised from the dead (“according to the spirit”).

It would not be surprising to anyone, given the tangled logic of his argument, Doherty has spent years online trying to defend his weird reasoning on this point. It is equally unsurprising that his Mythicist successors have not found his weak argument on Romans 1:3 worth defending and have been forced to turn to alternatives.

Romans 1:3

Mythicist Tactic 2: Interpolation

Doherty’s acrobatics have proven unconvincing even to most other Mythicists and so some have had to fall back on a very common way Mythicists deal with evidence that does not fit their theories – they claim it is a later interpolation. Trimming the evidence to fit their conclusions in this way is actually difficult to pull off, but it is made somewhat easier in the case of Pauline texts by the fact that a vast number of verses and passages in Paul’s letters have been called into question at some time or another. His are some of the most critically analysed texts in history, so it is not too difficult to find someone in this well-ploughed field who has questioned the authenticity of pretty much any Pauline element you care to mention.

This is made slightly more easy in the case of Romans 1:1-6 because there is a vast literature on all elements in this passage, given that it is a dense statement of beliefs which was used by various warring sides in the Christological and Trinitarian disputes of the first centuries of Christianity. That means elements which seem to bolster certain later doctrinal positions have been questioned as to their authenticity and it has been suggested by a few scholars that they were added to reinforce much later debates about the nature of Jesus.

The reference to Jesus as “descended from David according to the flesh” was particularly awkward for Docetists to deal with, given that they considered Jesus to be a wholly spiritual being who appeared on earth with only an appearance of humanity and was not born a human at all. Which has led to some speculation that it was added to the Pauline text later by more orthodox Christians for precisely this apologetic purpose.

Of course, speculation is one thing – making a solid case for this kind of interpolation is much more difficult. Mythicists who attempt to do so tend to use, knowingly or not, many of the arguments of Hermann Detering.

Detering (1953-2018) was a German pastor who held a number of deeply eccentric views on the origins of Christianity, including that Jesus was wholly invented out of earlier traditions, that Christianity has its origins in Buddhism, that Paul was originally the heretical figure known as Simon Magus, that his writings were later “rehabilitated” by various changes and interpolations to turn him into an orthodox figure and that Augustine’s Confessions is a medieval forgery, as are most early references to Jesus. Writing mainly in German, he developed these ideas to great length and managed to convince almost no-one of any of them. Even the great Mythicist apologist, Dr Richard Carrier PhD., calls his work “ad hoc”, “speculation” and “illogical”.

But some other Mythicists are less fussy about whose work they cherry pick from. Detering includes Romans 1:3-4 in his long list of supposed interpolations to rehabilitate the formerly heretical writings of “Paul”/Simon Magus and says these verses are “an interpolation by a later redactor who wanted to make the theology of the original letter accord with his own.” (Detering, The Falsified Paul, pp. 111-12).

He begins by claiming that the “interest of the writer in the Davidic descent of his Christ is peculiar, if one considers that in 2 Corinthians the same writer (= “Paul”) declares very clearly his total lack of interest in “Christ according to the flesh” (2 Cor 5:16)” (Detering, p. 112). Except if anyone looks at 2 Cor 5:16 they do not find Paul is talking about any “total lack of interest” in the human, pre-resurrection Jesus, but rather he is making a point about the renewing power of his salvation for believers:

From now on, therefore, we regard (οἴδαμεν) no one from a human point of view (literally ‘according to the flesh’); even though we once knew (ἐγνώκαμεν) Christ from a human point of view (ditto), we know him (γινώσκομεν) no longer in that way. So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new!

(2 Cor 5:16-17)

Neither of the the words used here for how the believers “regard” each other ( a form of οἶδα – to be aware of, behold, perceive) and how they once knew Jesus and how they know him now (both forms of γινώσκω – to know, recognise, understand) say anything about how “interersted” Paul is in the earthly Jesus “according to the flesh”. Both are about how things are perceived, not how much “interest” anyone should have in them. Detering’s reading is nonsense.

His second argument is equally weak:

The plural in 1:5 – “through whom we have received grace and apostleship” – does not agree with the singular in 1:1 and could be connected with the tendency of the redactor …. to exclude a special revelation to Paul …. and to incorporate him into the succession of the twelve.

(Detering, p. 112)

Again, this is a very strange reading, given that the salutation in Romans 1:1-6 reads perfectly naturally as moving from Paul’s personal status (thus the grammatical singular) to the shared salvation given by the raising of Jesus (thus the move to the plural) which encompasses all who are saved “including yourselves who are called to belong to Jesus Christ” (Romans 1:6). Nothing here indicates interpolation.

His third argument is that “Verse 1:1 anticipates 1:7 and shows very clearly that the person who wrote this already knew what stood in the following verse.” On this he quotes the nineteenth century “Dutch Radical” critic Willem Christiaan van Manen (1842-1909) who argued that none of the Pauline epistles were authentic:

‘If he was free to do so, he would have taken care to provide a better transition to verse 7 and would not have spoken of “being called holy” right after his “including yourselves, who are called…”‘

(van Manen, quoted in Detering, p. 112)

At least in this third argument Detering has some very slender scholarly support. In 1975 John C. O’Neill argued against the authenticity of most of Romans 1:1-7, including the reference to Jesus being “of the seed of David according to the flesh” (see O’Neill, Paul’s Letter to the Romans, 1975). C. H. Weisse had proposed the same back in 1866, Alfred Loisy had done so in passing in 1935 and A. D. Howell Smith conceded it as a possibility in 1942. But O’Neill is the most recent scholar to argue this in any detail and he marshals what he considers to be manuscript evidence to bolster what had previously been subjective speculation:

Fortunately we have a Greek manuscript (G) which does not contain the credal statement, and which reveals the proper connection of ideas in the salutation. This manuscript reads:

‘Paul, servant of Jesus Christ, called an apostle among all the Gentiles on his behalf.’

It is hard to imagine a scribe omitting such a long and important section, even by accident, and therefore I conclude that the long section was a marginal comment or interpolation, which was incorporated very early into the standard text of Romans.

(O’Neill, p. 26)
Romans 1:3 in Codex Gp
Romans 1 in Codex Gp

Here he is referring to a ninth century manuscript called Codex Boernerianus (a.k.a. Codex Gp or 012). This is a curious item that belongs to the “Western” text-type family of Greek manuscripts and so is not considered as textually authoritative as the “Alexandrian” text-type examples. It is in Greek, but with a Latin intertextual translation above the Greek text. This, its date and style, its many textual and linguistic oddities and a short Irish poem in the lower margin of one page (folio 23r) indicate that it was made by Irish monks at the monastery of St Gallen in what is now Switzerland.

Whoever created it, its text indicates that he and/or his predecessors in its textual succession were probably not very literate in Greek at all. In many places the Greek seems to be conforming to the interlinear Latin version rather than the other way around and in many others it seems to be almost phonetic in its spelling. These and many other peculiarities make it a very strange choice for any textual argument.

Romans 1:1-7 is certainly missing everything from 1:1a-1:5b, but it is not just missing – there is a large lacuna on the page where we would expect the missing text and we find similar lacunae in the manuscript at Romans 2:17-24, 1 Corinthians 3:8-16, 1 Corinthians 6:7-14, Colossians 2:1-8, and Philemon 1:20-25. So it is not as though the scribe simply missed out the key verses in Romans 1 – here and elsewhere there are blank spaces on the page where we would expect these verses to be and these spaces are about the size we would expect for the missing verses.

Exactly why is not absolutely clear, though there is a likely explanation. The manuscript was in poor condition when a facsimile was produced from it in 1909, with these lacunae clearly indicated even then. It was further damaged by water during the bombing of Dresden in 1945 but a digital reproduction of the manuscript makes it clear that the lacunae are actually original to the manuscript and not simply the results of damage and deterioration. So why did the scribe leave these blanks? The most probable explanation is that the exemplar he was working from was itself damaged or defective and the text at these points could not be made out, so the scribe left blank spaces in his work to not only indicate this but to also give a future scribe with access to a better exemplar an opportunity to, literally, fill in the gaps.

This makes O’Neill’s reliance on the lacuna on folio 10r for a textual argument for interpolation in Romans 1 entirely unconvincing. It is also interesting that several other scholars repeat the claim that the text of Codex Gp misses 1:1a-1:5b without mentioning the lacuna or the other lacunae in this manuscript (BeDuhn, for example – see below). This is very odd, and it seems this is a piece of faulty information that has passed from scholar to scholar without them actually checking the manuscript. However you look at it, Codex Gp, properly considered, does not support the interpolation claim.

Without this manuscript evidence, the arguments for interpolation fall back on much more subjective arguments such as ones based on stylistic analysis. As already noted above, the opening of the letter found in Romans 1:1-7 is long; containing a series of statements about Paul, prophecy, Jesus, salvation and, finally, the Romans being addressed. Those who have argued for interpolations find this length suspicious and claim an earlier, briefer opening has been packed with later claims for doctrinal reasons.

Ancient letters often did have quite short openings, usually of the “X, to Y, greetings” formula or brief variants – e.g., “X, to Y his son, greetings”. Then again, Paul was writing letters with very specific pastoral and theological purposes, usually to larger groups rather than individuals, so his greetings tend to be longer. Exactly how much longer varied. The opening of 1 Thessalonians is quite brief:

Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, to the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

(1 Thessalonians 1:1)

The salutation at the opening of Philemon is longer, but still fairly short compared to Romans:

Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our dear friend and co-worker, to Apphia our sister, to Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house: grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Philemon 1:1-3)

But others are longer, with more elements included than the addressers and addresees:

Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes, to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

(1 Corinthians 1:1-3)

And when Paul seems to have some burning issues on his mind, his salutations could get longer still:

Paul an apostle—sent neither by human commission nor from human authorities, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— and all the members of God’s family who are with me,

To the churches of Galatia: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to set us free from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

(Galatians 1: 1-5)

That is only slightly shorter than the opening of Romans. And these are examples from the small number of letters which scholars generally agree were actually by Paul himself. What they show is that it is very difficult to make an argument based on what a Pauline salutation “should” look like. If we add to this, as has already been noted, that Romans was written in very different circumstances to the other surviving letters of Paul – i.e. as an introductory address to a community Paul had not yet met – then it does not seem surprising that it would include some more credal statements and references to his own status and credentials. Different letters in different circumstances generally require different styles, even today. All this means that the stylistic argument based on some conception of how the letter “should” begin is not founded on anything very solid.

The final argument made by the Mythicists who want to insist that the key phrase in Romans 1:3 is a later interpolation to make is an argument from silence. Marcion of Sinope (c. 85-160 AD) preached a variant form of Christianity in the second century which we know of mainly via the works of those who argued against him, particularly Tertullian (150-c.240 AD) and Epiphanius (c. 320-403 AD). Marcion is remarkable for a number of reasons, but especially because he seems to be the first Christian to create a collection of the Christian texts he considered to be authoritative, rejecting many others that he did not accept. Other Christians disagreed vehemently with his ideas about Jesus and God, which they regarded as heretical, and also with his rejection of the whole of the Old Testament, most of the gospels and all but ten of the letters of Paul. In reaction, they looked at the issue of what texts they did regard as authoritative, which stimulated the creation of the Biblical canons used by Christians to this day.

Not only did his detractors dislike his excision of works they considered scriptural, they also condemned his trimming of certain verses and passages from the texts he accepted – Tertullian called him “the Pontic mouse” (Sinope being in Pontus) who “gnawed the Gospels to pieces”, and complained loudly about his “mutilations” of the texts he used so as, according to Tertullian, to make them fit his “heretical” theology. Of course, Tertullian was writing a generation after Marcion so a question therefore arises. Were all these differences between what Tertullian found in his copies of the letters of Paul and the versions found in Marcion’s Apostolikon (his collection of ten Pauline letters) really “mutilations” or did Marcion’s texts of the letters actually represent an earlier and more authentic version of what Paul wrote? Was Tertullian working from later versions that had been selectively amended and added to; perhaps specifically to counter Marcionism?

Given that we have no copies of the Apostolikon, it is impossible to answer this question. But this has not stopped some scholars (and, when it helps them, Mythicists) from concluding that if an element seems to be missing from Marcion’s versions of the Pauline letters (as far as we can reconstruct them via Tertullian, Epiphanius and others), this bolsters some claims of later interpolation.

Tertullian definitely read the key verse on Jesus’ Davidic descent in his edition of Romans, as he used it to counter another “heretic”, the Monarchian Praxeas (Adversus Praxean, XXVII) and to counter Docetism more generally elsewhere (De carne Christi, XXII.2). But given that Marcion’s conception of Jesus seems to have been Docetic, a specific mention of him being “of the seed of David in the flesh” would have been a good argument to use against him. After all, Tertullian makes use of a similar reference to Jesus as “son of David” (Luke 18: 37-39) to counter Marcion’s view of Jesus by reference to a text Marcion included in his works (see Adversus Marcionem, IV:36). So why not refer to Romans 1:3 on this point? Thus, they argue, Marcion’s Apostolikon must not have included Romans 1:3 in its version of Romans and this indicates that it was not original the text.

There are two main problems with this argument. Firstly, while Tertullian does not make use of Romans 1:3 against Marcion, he also does not note its absence from Marcion’s version of Romans either. This is significant, given that the anti-Marcionite writers often note the lack of certain verses in Marcion’s version of the texts and Tertullian is particularly insistent on the point of Marcion’s many “mutilations”. Jason BeDuhn notes this silence in his recent monograph on Marcion’s canon:

We would certainly expect Tertullian and Epiphanius to cite vv. 2–3 against Marcion had they been present in the Apostolikon; yet why do they not explicitly note an omission? They would have had
the opportunity to do so either here or elsewhere where they discuss Paul’s attribution of Davidic ancestry to Jesus (cf. Tertullian, Carn. Chr. 22.2; Prax. 27.11).

(BeDuhn, The First New Testament: Marcion’s Scriptural Canon, 2013, p. 295)

BeDuhn goes on to note that Origen also fails to note any Marcionite omission of the Romans 1:3 reference to Jesus as descended from David in his discussion of Jesus’s Davidic descent in Commentarium in evangelium Joannis X.21.4. Origen refers directly to Romans 1:3 and discusses how what Paul says is true “if we apply this to the bodily part of [Jesus]” but is not literally true when referring to “His diviner power”. He then says:

Marcion, I suppose, took sound words in a wrong sense, when he rejected His birth from Mary, and declared that as to His divine nature He was not born of Mary, and hence made bold to delete from the Gospel the passages which have this effect.

So BeDuhn is right that if Marcion’s version of Romans did not have the Davidic reference in 1:3, it is very odd that Origen talks about him misunderstanding Paul’s words on this point and only talks about him deleting Davidic references elsewhere and not to him deleting the Romans 1:3 reference. This indicates that Marcion did, in fact, include Romans 1:3. BeDuhn seems to think so:

The latter statement could be construed as implying that Marcion had no objection to this passage, since it makes a clear distinction between Jesus’ Davidic ancestry “according to the flesh” and his divine status as “son of God,” which the birth stories do not. Note that Origen appears to distinguish Marcion’s views from those of docetists, who would reject any human ancestry for Jesus. Perhaps some reconsideration of Marcion’s christology is needed.

(BeDuhn, p. 295)

All this indicates that Marcion’s text included Romans 1:3. At the very least, all this shows just how difficult it is to determine what Marcion’s texts did or did not contain by working purely from the references to them in his detractors’ comments and therefore how tenuous any argument based on these reconstructions must necessarily be.

Which leads to the second problem with the argument against Romans 1:3 based on Marcion’s (possible) texts. Even if we ignore the issues above and accept that Marcion’s version of Romans did not include the Davidic reference, we still cannot determine if this was because Marcion was preserving an earlier, more authentic text of Romans or if, as his opponents claimed, he did remove this and other parts of his texts. There is simply no way of establishing this.

Taken together, all these problems make the interpolation tactic deeply speculative at best and, on balance given the lack of manuscript support for it and the objections to the speculative arguments it is based on, actually improbable.

Which has led one prominent Mythicist to strike out on his own with a new argument that is most diplomatically described as … well, “courageous” would be both polite and generous.

It Came from Outer Space Romans 1:3

Mythicist Tactic 3: A … Cosmic Sperm Bank in Outer Space?!

Enter the perpetually unemployed PhD. grad student and indefatigable Mythicist blogger, Dr. Richard Carrier. As mentioned above, Carrier is a long time anti-theist activist who appears to have been converted to Mythicism by Earl Doherty’s books. In 2002 Carrier wrote a detailed review of Doherty’s 1999 version of his book The Jesus Puzzle in which Carrier identified no less than 11 problems with Doherty’s arguments. Rather than concluding that these problems undermine Doherty’s claims, Carrier proceeded to list “a few items that Doherty missed in his own arguments that actually support him” and as his review proceeds it reads less like a critical analysis and more like helpful notes on how to improve the thesis. And this is what Carrier then proceeded to attempt, with his book On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt (2014) being the ultimate result.

Most of the current crop of Mythicists present few arguments which are actually new – they tend to simply rehash the old Mythicist arguments that were considered and rejected by scholarship a century ago. But when he came to the Davidic reference in Romans 1:3, Carrier seems to have found neither Doherty’s accomodation tactic or the interpolation tactic convincing, so he strikes out on his own with a new argument.

He declares that Romans 1:3 says Jesus “was given a human body formed of Davidic seed” (pp. 532-3) and goes on to explain that “Paul says Jesus ‘was made from the sperm of David according to the flesh'” (p. 575). This is a remarkable literal reading of Romans 1:3, with the word σπέρματος (seed) being read not metaphorically as referring to ancestry and descent but literally as human semen.

He briefly notes that “an allegorical meaning” of this element “is possible”, but his footnote to this concession refers to two fellow Mythicists: Doherty’s arguments on Romans 1:3 and those of the undergraduate student Thomas Verenna. Carrier fails to take account of the evidence for the most obvious alternative and non-literal reading of this verse: that Paul is saying Jesus was a human descended from – “having come of the seed of” – a human ancestor, David.

This is an astonishing omission, given that if we look for how the word σπέρμα is used by Jewish writers elsewhere, this metaphorical usage is precisely what we repeatedly find. It is a common expression used in reference to descent from an ancestor; translating forms of the Hebrew זֶרַע. In fact, we can find multiple uses of it in this way in the Septuagint where it is referring specifically to descent from David. For example:

καὶ εἶπεν ᾿Ιωνάθαν τῷ Δαυίδ· πορεύου εἰς εἰρήνην, καὶ ὡς ὀμωμόκαμεν ἡμεῖς ἀμφότεροι ἐν ὀνόματι Κυρίου λέγοντες· Κύριος ἔσται μάρτυς ἀνὰ μέσον ἐμοῦ καί σοῦ καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ σπέρματός μου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ σπέρματός σου ἕως αἰῶνος.

(And Jonathan said to David, Go in peace, and as we have both sworn in the name of the Lord, saying, The Lord shall be witness between me and thee, and between my seed and thy seed for ever– [even so let it be].)

(1 Samuel 20:42)

Or again:

καὶ ἐπεστράφη τὰ αἵματα αὐτῶν εἰς κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς κεφαλὴν τοῦ σπέρματος αὐτοῦ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, καὶ τῷ Δαυὶδ καὶ τῷ σπέρματι αὐτοῦ καὶ τῷ οἴκῳ αὐτοῦ καὶ τῷ θρόνῳ αὐτοῦ γένοιτο εἰρήνη ἕως αἰῶνος παρὰ Κυρίου.

(And their blood is returned upon his head, and upon the head of his seed for ever: but to David, and his seed, and his house, and his throne, may there be peace for ever from the Lord.)

(1 Kings 2:33)

Or again:

μεγαλύνων τὰς σωτηρίας βασιλέως αὐτοῦ καὶ ποιῶν ἔλεος τῷ χριστῷ αὐτοῦ, τῷ Δαυὶδ καὶ τῷ σπέρματι αὐτοῦ ἕως αἰῶνος.

(He magnifies the salvation of his king, and works mercy for his anointed, even for David and for his seed for ever.)

(2 Samuel 22:51)

And to these we can add 1 Samuel 24:22, 2 Samuel 7:12 and 1 Chronicles 17:11. These are just the examples of figurative uses of the word σπέρμα to specifically refer to descendants of David. There is a large number of other examples of its use figuratively in relation to others or to descent and ancestry generally: see Psalms 18:50, Psalms of Solomon 7:8, 9:17, 17:4, 17:7, 17:9, and John 7:42 (referring, again, to descent from David) and 4 Ezra 8:16. In fact, in the Septuagint alone about 75% of the uses of forms of this word are figurative references to descendants or ancestry, with the remainder being literal references to plant seeds or to semen in passages about ejaculation and nocturnal emissions. For Carrier to simply ignore all this relevant evidence is remarkable.

But he does so because of the idiosyncratic way he reads the verb in Romans 1:3: γενομένου. This is a form of γίνομαι: a very common verb with a wide range of meanings, including everything from “to happen” to “to become” or “to come into being”. Carrier places great emphasis on the fact that “Paul never uses that word of a human birth, despite using it hundreds of times …. rather, his preferred word for being born is gennaō” (Carrier, pp. 575-6).

This is true, though not especially significant given that Paul talks about actual births very seldom: Carrier cites all three times in his footnote on this point. His argument here is further weakened by the fact that forms of γίνομαι are used in many places to refer to births. In the Septuagint we find it used this way in Genesis alone in 21:3, 46:27 and 48:5. In Josephus we find it used this way in Antiquities I.304 and VII.154. And we find it used this way by non-Jews as well, e.g. in Plato’ Republic VIII.553 and Marcellinus Life of Thucydides 54. That aside, Simon Gathercole notes that the few times Paul uses the more specific word γεννάω he is using it in regard to the immediate parents, whereas in Romans 1:3 he is referring to more indirect ancestry. The word γεννάω refers to the “begetting” or “engendering” of a child – properly by the father but, by extension, by the mother. So, as Gathercole notes, “this would not work in the genealogical sense of Rom. 1:3 because David did not beget Jesus” (Gathercole, “The Historical and Human Existence of Jesus in Paul’s Letters,” Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus, 16 (2018), p. 191, n. 32). So the word is not so unusual and not strange in this context.

Despite this, Carrier goes in search of what γενομένου could mean here. For this he turns to 1 Corinthians 15:45, arguing:

Notably, in 1 Cor. 15:45, Paul says Adam ‘was made’, using the same word he uses for Jesus; yet this is obviously not a reference to being born but to being constructed directly by God. If so for Adam, then so it could be for Jesus (whom Paul equated with Adam in that same verse)

(Carrier, p. 576)

The verse in question reads:

Thus it is written, “The first man, Adam, became [ἐγένετο] a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The problem for Carrier here is Paul is referring to Genesis 2:7 and if we look at that in its context in the Septuagint it does not actually support his argument:

“…και έπλασεν ο θεός τον άνθρωπον χουν λαβών από της γης και ενεφύσησεν εις το πρόσωπον αυτού πνοήν ζωής και εγένετο ο άνθρωπος εις ψυχήν ζώσαν…”

(then the Lord God formed [έπλασεν] man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became [εγένετο] a living being.)

(Genesis 2:6-7)

So here we certainly do find a form of the relevant verb (γίνομαι), but it does not refer to the forming, making or “manufacturing” of the first man. The verb used for that is έπλασεν – a form of the verb πλάσσω meaning “to shape, to form”. The form of γίνομαι is used for when God breathes life into Adam and he transforms from an inert shape into a living man. So Carrier’s claim that Paul uses a form of γίνομαι to refer to Adam being “constructed” and that this would be what it means in relation to Jesus is simply incorrect. Paul talks of Adam “becoming” a living man, certainly, but the Genesis passage he refers to uses another verb entirely to detail the “manufacturing” of his body.

And this is a major problem for Carrier’s argument because, having established what he thinks is a solid basis for γενομένου to mean here “manufactured” rather than just “becoming”, he launches into even more convoluted reasoning so he can conclude that Paul is saying that Jesus’ celestial body was, quite literally, manufactured out of David’s ancient semen stored “in outer space”.

To achieve this he turns to 2 Samuel 7:12-14:

When your days are done and you sleep with your fathers, I will raise up your sperm after you, which shall come from your belly, and I will establish his kingdom. He will build for me a house in my name, and I will establish his throne forever. I will be his father and he will be my son.

(Carrier’s translation, p. 576)

The reference to how this son of David “will build for me a house in my name” and its general context makes it clear this is a reference to David’s son and successor Solomon. But Carrier proposes that it can also be read as a pesher and claims:

If this passage were read as a pesher …. one could easily conclude that God was saying he extracted semen from David and held it in reserve until the time he could make good this promise of David’s progeny sitting on an eternal throne. … It would not be unimaginable that God could maintain a cosmic sperm bank.”

(Carrier, p. 576)

As odd as this idea may seem, the ancients certainly believed in many things that we find exceedingly strange. But the real problem here is no-one ever talks about God taking “extracted semen” from David and storing it in a “cosmic sperm bank”. This remarkable idea would surely be referred to somewhere in the extensive intertestamental Jewish literature if it existed, but it is nowhere to be found. More importantly, we find it nowhere in Paul’s letters either, despite it – according to Carrier – being a central idea of his. Indeed, absolutely no-one prior to Carrier has ever read Romans 1:3 or 2 Samuel 7:12-14 and concluded that Paul, first century Jews or anyone else believed in this “cosmic sperm bank” storing “extracted semen from David”, let alone in some celestial fleshly body that was “manufactured” from cosmically stored Davidic sperm for Jesus in the heavens.

Despite this fanciful ad hoc construction based on false premises and misreadings being something entirely of his own imagining, in the space of just one page Carrier transforms this idea from merely “not … unimaginable” to actually “not … improbable”:

The notion of a cosmic sperm bank is so easily read out of this scripture, and is all but required by the outcome of subsequent history , that it is not an improbable assumption.

(Carrier, p. 577)

After all, he argues, anyone who accepted the idea of a wholly celestial Jesus who never had an earthly existence “had to imagine something of this kind” to reconcile this with Jesus’ being the Messiah and so having Davidic descent. Of course, Doherty did not think so, but his arguments were very weak. So unless a Mythicist uses the “interpolation” tactic to trim away Romans 1:3 altogether, Carrier triumphantly concludes that the “cosmic sperm bank” theory that he has conjured up out of one (misinterpreted) verb is the best way to go.

Which avoids another and far more parsimonious alternative: realising that Romans 1:3 scuppers the whole “celestial and non-earthly Jesus” idea and leaves us with Paul … accepting an earthly and historical Jesus. Which brings the edifice of Mythicism crashing down.

Even Carrier seems dimly aware that his breezy assurances that this creaking contrivance of an argument is “not … improbable” are not particularly convincing. So he tries to prop it up via a footnote:

In later Jewish legend, the demoness Igrath was believed to collect semen from sleeping men, and once did so from David himself, using his sperm to beget rival kings: G.W. Dennis, Encyclopedia of Jewish Myth, Magic and Mysticism (Woodbury, MN: Llewellyn, 2007), p. 126.

(Carrier p. 576, n. 85.)

Like many of Carrier’s footnotes, this one seems reasonable until you descend into the rabbit warren to ferret out exactly what he is referring to. And discover things are not quite as he claims.

Firstly, if we check Dennis’ Encyclopedia we do indeed find an entry for “Igrat or Agrat” which does mention David:

In the most elaborate account concerning her, she had intercourse with David, and from his royal semen she gave birth to both the gentile kings who would become his enemies (not unlike Morgan LaFaye and Arthur) and to Asmodeus, the King of Demons.

Dennis then quotes from a version of of an account of “two harlots …. Lilith and Igrat”:

“One night King David slept in the camp in the desert, and Igrat coupled with him in his dream. And he had emission, and she conceived and bore Adad [king of Edom].”

Here Dennis gives a footnote for this quote to “Patai, Gates to the Old City“, but with no page number. This is a reference to Raphael Patai (ed.), The Gates to the Old City: A Book of Jewish Legends (1981), which discusses Igrat on pages 459-61, including the story Dennis quotes (p. 459). But this is where the trail goes cold. Dennis source says that David is tricked into impregnating a demon, who then bears a son who is a contemporary of David’s successor Solomon. To describe this sex act as Igrat “collecting semen” is decidedly slippery. More importantly, nowhere in this story is there any “cosmic sperm bank”, just a demon “harlot” who coupled “with [David] in his dream” and so became pregnant. This all happens on earth. There is no “cosmic sperm bank in outer space” to be found here.

And the date of this story? Patai is giving a quote from a rabbinical source called “School of the RaShBa” which his bibliography lists as:

School of the RaShBA (R. Sh’lomo ben Avraham Adret, ca. 1235-ca. 1310). Published by G. Scholem in Tarbiz, Jerusalem, 1948, I 9: 172. Kabbalistic comments.

Which means the “later” Jews who supposedly told this story of a “cosmic sperm bank” (but actually did not) were in the thirteenth or early fourteenth century – a whole thirteen centuries after Paul. After a wild goose chase through Carrier’s footnoted references, we find … absolutely nothing that supports his “cosmic sperm bank” theory.

Moon Jesus Romans 1:3

But no-one can say Carrier lacks conviction or bravado. Despite this “cosmic sperm bank” idea being one that even his most ardent disciples find less than compelling and other Mythicists find downright embarrassing, Carrier is tireless in defending it. And, in doing so, he gets increasingly dogmatic and shrill about it. So he defends it here. And here. And, again, here. And each time he becomes more strident and insistent. You almost have to wonder if he is really convinced himself.

In the first of these defences, Carrier admits that the “word Paul uses can sometimes mean birth in some other authors”, but emphatically repeats his patent error that “it is not the word Paul ever uses for birth (gennaô); instead, it’s the word he uses for God’s manufacture of Adam’s body from clay”. This “manufacture” claim is, as shown above, simply wrong. He also insists that γίνομαι “is the word [Paul] uses for …. God’s manufacture of our future resurrection bodies in heaven”.  This last point is a reference to 1 Corinthians 15:35-38:

But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” Fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And as for what you sow, you do not sow the body that is to be [σῶμα τὸ γενησόμενον], but a bare seed, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.

Here we do find a form of the verb γίνομαι – its future participle in the middle voice, γενησόμενον – but nothing indicates it can take Carrier’s strange reading of it as having something to do with “manufacture”. It simply refers to something that will come to be in the future and nothing more. Once again, Carrier is straining to force a very broad verb to fit his highly specific, narrow and specious required meaning.

He then tries to deflect from the problems of his contrived “cosmic sperm bank” theory by noting that in his book he “mention[s] there is another possible theory that does just as well”. This refers to his passing note on Doherty’s tangled arguments whereby “Paul is saying we come from the seed of Abraham allegorically, not literally; spiritually, not biologically.” Unfortunately for Carrier, as already discussed above, this does not work as a way of reading Romans 1:3 because Paul says those who are metaphorically “from the seed of Abraham” are the Gentiles, and he makes these distinct from those who are descendants of Abraham biologically, “according to the flesh” – i.e. the Jews. And Romans 1:3 says Jesus is “of the seed of David” in this way – “according to the flesh”.

Carrier tries to prop up his theory again in his response to the article on Paul’s human Jesus by Gathercole, mentioned above. Again, he simply doubles down on his muddled and erroneous readings of the key words. He insists that “Paul never says Jesus descended from anyone …. [t]he word ‘descended’ simply isn’t in the Greek, despite many modern translations wanting to put it there.” But these translators do not “put it there” on some kind of whim. They do so because it makes the most sense given the consistent way forms of the key word “seed” – σπέρμα/σπέρματος – is used when referring to someone’s ancestor, as it obviously is in Romans 1:3.

Carrier claims that he “shows” that this “cosmic sperm bank” idea is “all derived from 2 Samuel 7.12-14”, despite Paul making no reference to this passage and its supposed connection being a pure supposition by Carrier and not something “shown” at all. Then he argues:

2 Samuel 7.12-14, could not be literally fulfilled except by direct manufacture from David’s sperm (p. 576). Because it says there would be an unbroken line of kings sitting on the throne from David to the Messiah; which historically did not happen. The prophecy was thus false. Unless someone could think of a way to rescue it. The easiest way to? Take it literally.

But given that Paul makes no reference to 2 Samuel 7.12-14, his driving need to somehow deal with this prophecy exists solely in Carrier’s imagination. Given that Jews of Paul’s time had been able to deal figuratively with such references to unbroken Davidic succession for the Messiah ever since the end of David’s dynasty, Carrier’s insistence that a literal reading is “easiest” also falls flat.

Which brings us to Carrier’s third, most recent and most strident defence of his creaking theory, which is in response to me. Ignoring his usual childish smears and tedious misrepresentations (“liar!” etc.), most of what he says is just a rehashing of his original arguments, which have already been dealt with in detail above, though here he declares several of his flawed claims to be “indisputable fact”. No-one could ever accuse him of timidity. One of these “indisputable facts” is:

… that subsequent Christian scribes were so bothered by the above two facts that they tried to doctor the manuscripts of Paul to change his word for “made” into his word for “born” (and did this in both places where Paul alludes to Jesus’s origin: Romans 1:3 and Galatians 4:4).

This is true, but not too surprising. Given the later Christological disputes, which included ones with Docetics who claimed Jesus never had a truly physical, human form, anything in Paul that seemed too ambiguous on this point was sometimes scribally “adjusted” in this way to make his words more “clear” for the orthodox. But Paul’s language makes sense given he believed Jesus had a heavenly pre-existence and took on human form by “coming-into-being [γενόμενον]of/by a woman” (Galatians 4:4). In Galatians as in Romans, Paul uses a form of γίνομαι and, as already noted and as Carrier admits, this can and was used to refer to birth. But it suits Paul’s purposes with Jesus because to Paul he is a pre-existent heavenly figure coming into being as a human. Thus the broader term that can and does mean both “to become” and “to be born”. The broader word suits Paul’s purposes very nicely.

After rehearsing his “indisputable facts”, all of which are either not “facts”, far from “indisputable” or simply not relevant, Carrier then makes a very odd argument. He says that the genealogies of Jesus in gMatt and gLuke both trace Joseph’s ancestry back to David while also saying Jesus was not born from Joseph’s seed.

Therefore even the authors of the Gospels believed either that Jesus’s body was manufactured by God directly out of the seed of David or the “seed of David” prophecy was only meant allegorically. They cannot have understood it figuratively (as meaning biological descent), because they explicitly exclude that in their chosen description of Jesus’s origins.

Leaving aside some problems with Carrier’s reading of the infancy narratives, what has all this got to do with Paul? Apparently, “it cannot be implausible that Paul would mean Romans 1:3 in either of those two senses, since later Christians, the very authors of the canonical Gospels, clearly did as well.” But the problem here is that those later writers were trying to reconcile the tradition of Jesus’ Davidic descent with the much later idea of “the Virgin Birth” based on a reading of Isaiah 7:14 and so get themselves into a tangle. Paul simply did not have this issue, as there is no indication he had a belief in any “Virgin Birth” or saw Isaiah 7:14 as referring to Jesus. For him, a straight claim of biological descent from David had no complications. It is very strange that Carrier thinks the later tangles of the gospel infancy narratives have any bearing here.

Carrier also builds a straw man by arguing that people in the ancient world believed all kinds of strange things, so the strangeness of a “cosmic sperm bank in outer space” is irrelevant:

“So “that’s implausible” simply doesn’t cut it as an argument. Nor does “that’s weird.” Because most ancient Christian beliefs were weird. “It’s weird” in fact was so normal as to be everywhere, in both Jewish and Christian apocalyptic thought. A far cry from improbable. 

This is all very true, but totally irrelevant. Nowhere have I said the problem with this “cosmic sperm bank in outer space” argument lies in the implausibility of ancient people believing strange things. I have simply noted that it is highly implausible that Paul would refer to this remarkable concept in such an oblique way in Romans 1:3 and yet we find no reference to it anywhere else; not in Paul, not in any Jewish literature, not … anywhere. I also find it improbable that Carrier – an unemployed blogger and failed academic – would be the first and only person on earth to “discover” this remarkable concept, which has no basis in any other evidence, and do so via a (contorted) reading of a single verb. Carrier, of course, is his own biggest fan and so finds that last remarkable occurrence very plausible. Few others will.

In a further strange flourish Carrier makes a virtue of the fact that even he does not really find his arguments for his “cosmic sperm bank in outer space” theory very likely – he reminds us that in his book “still counted Romans 1:3 as evidence for historicity!” (bolding in the original). Exactly how noting this is meant to help him prop up his creaking theory I have no idea.

But he continues to struggle to find anything in the ancient world that resembles his imagined “cosmic sperm-banking” (yes, that is a term he uses). So now he gestures towards how “the Zoroastrians had similarly imagined their messiahs to be born from the ancient stored semen of their religion’s founder” and repeats his false Igrat claim, saying “Jewish lore about the powers of demons implied something akin had even already been done to David”. As we have seen, that “Jewish lore” dates to thirteen centuries after Paul and does not refer to any “cosmic sperm-banking”. Neither does the Zoroastrian tale of Zoroaster’s semen surviving in Lake Kiyansiah or Kayanse and impregnating a succession of unsuspecting bathing virgins in future generations. This is hardly “sperm-banking”, given that it is purely accidental. And, like the demoness Igrat’s conception, it is not “cosmic” either, given it happens on earth. But by this stage Carrier seems to have reached the level of “any parallel is good enough” usually found with New Age Mythicists like the notorious “Acharya S”. Which is a sure sign of a contrived, ad hoc and crackpot idea. Carrier fails.

Conclusion

The best reading of Romans 1:3 is that it refers to Jesus being descended from an earthly and human ancestor. This is an unremarkable statement, as this reading is in keeping with how virtually all scholars read Paul’s letters. The tiny and insignificant Mythicist fringe, however, cannot accept this clear interpretation because it spoils their thesis, so they contrive arguments to get around this problem. None of these arguments work. Doherty’s argument is incoherent. The “interpolation” argument has no supporting manuscript evidence and is based on subjective premises with little to no cumulative weight. And Carrier’s “cosmic sperm bank in outer space” theory is so flawed and ridiculous even other Mythicists find it a total embarrassment. The Mythicist readings of Romans 1:3 all fail and are indicative of the weakness of the Mythicist thesis overall.

113 thoughts on “Jesus Mythicism 6: Paul’s Davidic Jesus in Romans 1:3

  1. Also, of note. The Zoroastrian take is only found in the Denkard, which is from around the 9th century CE, so it is so late after Paul that Carrier cannot make any case for precedence based on it.

    1. Good point. But I think he only uses the Zoroastrian story as a parallel to try to show the concept isn’t implausible. Whatever he’s doing with it, it fails.

      1. If we completely put Carrier’s arguments for mythicism aside, what are your thoughts on his take of early Christianity being influenced by existing cultic religions of the time?

        1. Neither early Christianity nor the Second Temple Judaism it grew out of existed in a vacuum, so some influence from other sects is certainly likely. So while we can find Jewish roots for pretty much everything in the earliest forms of Christianity, some influence from other Mediterranean religions is possible. The concept of Jesus being born to a virgin, for example, is very much in the tradition of Jewish prophets and holy men being born to women who should not be able to conceive, such as Issac being born to Sarah who was considered to old to conceive or Samson being born to Manoah who had been considered barren. A virgin conceiving is more remarkable than these examples and very much in the tradition of these stories. But it is hard to ignore that there were a few other examples of virgins conceiving in stories outside the Jewish traditions and difficult to imagine they didn’t have some influence on the rise and development of this part of the Jesus narrative.

          That said, Mythicists overstate these possibilities to help prop up their case while more traditional Christians reject them altogether. The truth, as usual, lies somewhere in between.

          1. I believe that it is possible to explain the story of the virginal conception without pagan myths. You have the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14. The young maiden of the original Hebrew text became a virgin in the Greek version, and that version was used by the New Testament writers.

          2. I think it’s completely possible for it to arise without any influence from pagan myths. You yourself just provided part of the Jewish context which would allow this and I gave some more above. I do think the pagan myths did help this story to become established, but they were only part of the story. And it would be entirely possible for it to arise without them quite easily from the Jewish context alone.

  2. Great article. First time I heard Carrier say:”Jew sperme, Jewish body” sound logic. But when I thought about: would Paul really mean a person being a descendent of someone without born in his genealogy?!
    The Pharaoh was believed to be family of Horus. A “real family” with a mythical figure. But not a mythical descendence. Is this a good analogy?

    1. Technically the pharaoh was said to be the son of Ra but Horus incarnate. Not a good analogy given the literary context, no

  3. Hey Tim, very high standard blog as usual. Always a pleasure to read. We miss you over in “Historical Jesus and higher criticism” group.

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    1. Yes, well I’ve done my time beating my head against a succession of Mythers repeating the same old tired arguments. I’ve decided that tackling those arguments in detail here is a better use of my limited free time. But feel free to share this article with the group – I can just imagine the howls of protest from the usual suspects there.

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      1. Ah no, most in the group enjoyed your arguments and who knows with a bit of education, those same Mythers may change their positions. Anyway we’ve got a handle on them. I’ll make a special OP, to share all your links. Take care Tim.

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  4. I can personally verify that Carrier credits Doherty as his inspiration, having been present at their first (and AFAIK only) physical meeting.

  5. As always, it is an excellent article. In fact, for a conference I am going to give online (to a Spanish-speaking public), I was going to discuss some of these issues.

    However, I wish to point something out something which has been underestimated, and I don’t think that it is even mentioned by anti-mythicists as a problem for undermining Carrier’s view on the matter. That is Galatians 4:4.

    Of course, for Carrier, it says that Jesus was “manufactured” from a woman, “manufactured” under the law. Even if we grant Carrier’s odd belief that “ginomai” means manufacture (I don’t buy it, but let’s grant it for the sake of the argument), the question is where was Jesus manufactured. According to Galatians 4:4, it was under the Torah (the Law). If we pay attention to Paul’s theology in Galatians and in Romans, we find that this rule of the Torah is most probably not be found in the sublunar heavens. According to Paul, through the sin of Adam, sin entered this world, and due to sin, death also occurred. So everyone died because everyone sinned from Adam to Moses. Then God gave Moses the Torah as a sort of guardian for the people of Israel, which was still in a state of infancy. The Torah was required for every Jew. If Jesus was “manufactured under the Torah”, it has to have been on Earth, where he would carry out everything required by the Torah, even observing his duties to the Temple in Jerusalem. As far as I know, and you may correct me on this, there is no hint anywhere that the Torah was being observed in the heavens by celestial beings (at least not for Paul). Transmitted by celestial beings, yes; observed in the heavens, no.

    For Paul’s thinking, Jesus submitted itself to the Torah, made himself damned under the Torah (like the Gentiles were damned by it), so that it freed the Gentiles from some of its requirements (circumcision, kosher, and the Sabbath observance). In my non-expert opinion, and I may be wrong about this, it sounds to me that if Jesus existed under the Torah, he could not be placed anywhere else except on earth. It is very unlikely that Jesus existed as a being under the Torah in outer space. It is more likely that Paul believed in a historical Jesus.

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    1. The contorted Mythicist arguments regarding Galatians 4:4 may have to be covered in a future article. I originally intended for this one to be about all the key Pauline verses which indicate an earthly, human and historical Jesus, but as my draft got longer and longer, I had to cut it down to just Romans 1:3. This is the problem posed by the “Disproportionality of Bullshit” principle – it takes far longer to debunk a bad argument that it takes for the kooks to make it in the first place.

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    2. Pedro, the point about ‘under the law’ is excellent. If the 4 Ezra / 2 Baruch point of view can be taken as a guide to Paul’s form of pharasaism, there is no law in the life of the resurrection, in which we gravitate toward some celestial status. There is no food, no generation no impure corpses, etc etc. Certainly the resurrected Jesus is not ‘under the law’. It is difficult to see how a Celestial Christ can be ‘under the law’ and how his resurrection can be the kind of transformation Paul/Baruch/Ezra/etc imagine. It can only be a theater of celestial revivification, not metaphysical transformation such as Paul’s Jesus and we undergo.

      Your remark that Jesus ‘freed gentiles from the (mosaic) law’ is kind of absurd. They were never under it and it is wrong for them to think otherwise. As the rabbis say, they are Noahides, and James the Just and Paul think only a bit differently. More importantly this business about ‘freeing gentiles from the law’ presupposes an anticipated church history. Paul thinks the resurrection, in which there is in the end no law, is actually happening before our eyes and will be complete before he dies. He thinks he himself and his crowd will undergo resurrection without dying (‘we will be changed’) as Habad and the like think there will be only an instant of death for those living at the time, before their transformaton into ‘resurrection bodies’

  6. “Doherty’s arguments have not been well received by …..”
    I don’t know if it’s still online, but he used to have a website that summarizes his work (iIrc five pretty long webpages). What struck me is that besides a short discussion of the two Flavius Josephus bits almost everything was about explaining Bible quotes in terms of JM. But wasn’t the Bible supposed to be an untrustworthy source? If yes, how can it provide evidence for a historical or mythical Jesus?
    As always consistency is atypical.
    That made me already suspicious. Why should I assume Doherty’s interpretations are better than say Ken Ham’s? He never tells. But the first time I confronted a teacher of history with his idea that Paulus only talks about a celestial Jesus indeed this

    “runs into difficulty with stubbornly earthly Pauline elements”
    was the reply. Needless to say I was quickly cured from taking JM seriously.

    “Doherty has misunderstood the word “gospel” for its common modern usage”
    A common mistake of JMs (and not only them). They assume Paulus and other authors from Antiquity wrote for us 21st Century readers, not for their contemporaries.
    Doherty is a fine exponent of that totally unreliable “method”, popular among creationists: “if I prove that your theory is wrong then automatically mine must be correct”. I yet have to meet any positive evidence for a mythical Jesus.

    “Doherty just blithely ignores them here”
    Of course. Just contradicting evidence for a historical Jesus is all he has: “there is no evidence for a historical Jesus” is the best they can do – the equivalence of “there is no evidence for evolution”. As soon I realized this it became clear that JM is crap.

  7. “they claim it is a later interpolation”
    In other words: a conspiracy theory for Antiquity.

    “cosmic sperm bank”
    No quack ever uses Ockham’s Razor.

    “And discover things are not quite as he claims.”
    Mine- and misquoting also are popular hobbies among quacks.

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  8. Great article, Tim.

    Do you think that without Dr. Carrier’s bloviating, the mythicist argument would fade completely from view? This isn’t a world I’m super familiar with, but he seems to be the loudest voice and the only person who is able to give his argument the veneer of scholarly rigor–though I will say that his writing style is so deranged that I can’t imagine how he made it through a first-year graduate course in any discipline.

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    1. It’s hard to know what Mythicism would look like if Carrier hadn’t come along. As I mention above, Doherty had already revived it as a live idea on the internet and there are others, such as Kenneth Humphries of jesusneverexisted.com, who have been banging on about it for years as well. Carrier has really done us a favour by getting a scholarly(ish) book published on the subject. Before that Doherty and others complained that Mythicism was simply being ignored. Scholarship’s reaction to Carrier’s arguments mean they can’t claim that anymore – it hasn’t been ignored, it’s been rejected. Of course, now they just say that it was rejected out of bias and it hasn’t been properly critiqued, but they will always have an excuse for why they remain on the extreme fringes.

      Carrier’s book also shows that he can write more or less like an adult when he needs to, even if his prose is fairly clunky. The bizarre and juvenile style he affects on his blog is, apparently, deliberate: he thinks it makes his stuff more accessible to the general reader. Personally it reads more like a middle aged man trying hard to be “like, down with the kids” and is kind of pathetic.

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    2. Mythicism is going nowhere. Carrier is mostly running on a well lubricated machine which he did little to actually invigorate himself.

      Mythicism is primarily aided and abetted in its continued life by secularist and civil rights movements, actually, used as a tool to fight against what they perceive as hegemonic Christian authority. Thus, it is the damn near official position of American Atheists, it was extremely popular for some time among Afrocentric scholars (born out of the Civil Rights movements of the 60’s culturally), very popular among some smaller new-age religions like Theosophy (a la Harriette and Frank Curtiss), etc. One can look at its primary publishers as case examples: Pitchstone Publishing, Hypatia Press, Prometheus Books, American Atheist Press, Stellar House Publishing, etc., all publishing houses with philosophical outlooks which are at the exclusion of traditional Christian values.

      Furthermore, on a popular level, G. A. Wells and Robert M. Price are primarily the ones responsible for its consistent popularity today. By far the most frequently cited figures among academics are Wells, Price, Augstein, Arthur Drews, and P.-L. Couchoud, and they remain influential to this very day. If Carrier vanished from this debate, it would make very little difference, imo, except we wouldn’t have someone promoting cosmic sperm bank interpretations of Rom. 1:3.

      Sociologically, mythicism’s close ties to secularism, civil rights, and women’s suffragist movements indicates to me that it will never go away in popular circles.

      And I doubt it will ever totally disappear in academic circles either. In fact, currently we have an increase in scholars who teach the historical Jesus or related fields actually arguing against his historicity, including a few tenured figures, see my catalog of this: https://www.academia.edu/43005350/LIST_OF_QUALIFIED_ACADEMIC_MYTHICISTS_AND_AGNOSTICS_SINCE_1970.

      And I’d have to agree with Justin Meggitt that this debate is important and should not go away. It should definitely evolve, but it should not go away because it, at the least, holds historicists accountable.

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      1. Your list of academics doesn’t exactly show that mythicism will survive among academics in relevant fields. I’m going to ignore people in the list who are now deceased:

        Two individuals named “David Spence” and “Derek Murphy” are listed, but these are also just listed as graduate students. Robert Price, who is not an actual scholar (but has some degrees), is also listed.

        Raphael Lataster and Norman Simms are listed, but their qualifications are in entirely unrelated fields. Lataster has a PhD in Philosophy and Simms is a Professor in English.

        There are others you list slightly more, but not necessarily very relevant. Emmanuel Pfoh is an Assyriologist. I’m not sure how he can be considered qualified on the question of Jesus’ historicity. Christian Lindtner is a classics scholar, but her thesis is that Christianity originates from Buddhism. I can’t imagine any other academic takes this up in the future.

        You list Thomas Thompson who, while is sympathetic with mythicists, isn’t himself a mythicist. See the first sentence in Thompson’s article here:
        http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/tho368005.shtml

        I can’t find much about Rob Blackhirst’s scholarship besides an article in the mythicist Journal of Higher Criticism, which, imo, doesn’t mean much.

        That leaves the Jesus “agnostic” Hector Avalos, Arthur Droge, Richard Carrier, and Thomas Brodie. Brodie is entirely inactive at this point, and no one has heard from Droge or Avalos any time recently on these topics. It’s not even clear if they still hold to the same position. Really, the only active “academic” advocate for mythicism is Carrier himself, and as we can see from the content that O’Neill is putting up, any hope of his thesis in academia is quickly sinking down the drain.

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          1. I didn’t. Read the title of the article… I’m tired of people who just get reactionary and don’t bother to read what I write.

        1. David M. Spence is getting his doctorate in Theology, specializing in ancient Christian theology.

          Derek Murphey is getting his PhD in Comparative Literature, specializing in ancient Greco-Roman literature. I.e. he is getting the same kind of PhD as Robert Alter… hope you think he is qualified. If not you should re-evaluate.

          They are both relevant.

          Raphael Lataster has a PhD in Religious Studies, not philosophy. If I were to include philosophers, this list would be even longer as Jay Raskin, Michael Martin, Nanine Charbonnel, Michel Onfray, Narve Strand, Stephen Law, and more (all possessing advanced degrees) have all indulged mythicism or agnosticism on Jesus.

          Norman Simms teaches the historical Jesus and the Bible at his University, and is considered a scholar on the matter, including with peer reviewed publications on it.

          Assyriology is directly pertinent to ancient Christianity… unless you think context is not a thing. It is intersectional but related.

          My list is specifically noting Mythicists and Agnostics… Thompson is agnostic… but I guess you didn’t read the title of my list.

          Rod [sic] Blackhirst has a number of published works, including a book.

          Also, you are ignoring Robert M. Price. Also Avalos has been very active. He recently aided and helped with the consulting of Raphael Lataster’s latest book on mythicism in 2019.

          Anyways, basically this seems to indicate that you are just determined not to see the obvious. I hate to break it to you, but there has been a clear influx of mythicist and Jesus agnostic scholars recently (well Brodie since the 70’s actually). In fact, this is the largest number of qualified academics supporting it since the early 1900’s.

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          1. Side note, Robert M. Price is a scholar. Your (Issa) claim otherwise seems to be entirely disingenuous.

            That being said… most of your statements are not operating on an objective level. This is the sort of thing that people like apologists do to try and spin the narrative against mythicism and it honestly is just doing more harm than good.

            If you want to deal with mythicism, first start by honestly recognizing its growing scope, including in academia. Otherwise, you are going to find that it will be very hard to handle later on.

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          2. They still don’t have doctorates? That doesn’t make them scholars, let alone notable.

            Yes, Lataster has a PhD in Religious Studies, but I don’t think anyone thinks he’ll become a notable scholar. Most philosophers you mention (e.g. Raskin, Onfray, Martin) are dead. Price has no peer-reviewed work in credible publishers, def not a scholar. Assyriology isn’t a pertinently field to Jesus scholarship at all. I don’t think Thompson is agnostic and saying Blackhirst has “written books” means little.

            That leaves Avalos and an English professor who sometimes teaches about the historical Jesus. That’s not much.

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        2. Furthermore, Carrier isn’t the only one out there.

          It is noteworthy that Lataster’s work, thus far, has received rather positive attention, including a positive foreword by James Crossley to his latest book. Other positive reviews have been from Christopher Hartney, Carole M. Cusack (yes I am aware the latter is his advisor, but regardless she is a well respected scholar in the field).

          If you think mythicism and agnosticism, and even Carrier’s thesis, are not going anywhere, well… then you are wrong. I would argue that historically we have not even hit the peek of what we are going to see.

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        3. Correction C. Lindtner is MALE (not female) and is not a Western classicist but is a Sanskritologist/Buddhologist. He had a good reputation 20 years ago when I started graduate school (I remember his work on the Mahayana Buddhist sage Atiśa) but he suddenly became a pariah when he was accused of holocaust denial circa 2004 or 2005. Since then, he lost his moorings and became a Jesus-Mythicist, claiming that the New Testament is a “pirate” copy of a collection of Buddhist texts. He now uses bizarre methods to transcribe Buddhist Sanskrit proper names into Greek Christian ones. So while he does have some mainstream scholarly work of repute, I don’t think he has much since the 1990s that is taken seriously by his peers in Buddhist studies or beyond.

      2. Maybe I’m barking completely up the wrong tree, but to me it seems as though Mythicism and its faux “authorities” seem to be financially supported and promoted by some very wealthy person in Milwaukee Wisconsin.
        This same person also organises this annual “myth-Con” where all of these supposed “authorities” (*cough* YouTubers) debate (*cough* argue) all sorts of trendy topics.

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        1. Most of these authors and authorities are self funded, though a number of them are attached to universities (Thompson, Pfoh, Blackhirst, Droge, Simms, etc).

          This comment I’m not sure has any ability to be substantiated.

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          1. “Thompson, Pfoh, Blackhirst, Droge, Simms”
            Of those 5 names, the only Mythicist amongst them is Rod Blackhirst. Thomas Thompson is not a mythicist, he has merely said that historicity is ultimately based upon “theological necessity”. Emanuel Pfoh is no authority in New Testament studies and seems to be in the same boat as Thompson:
            https://books.google.com.au/books?id=A2tjAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Emanuel+Pfoh+mythicism&source=bl&ots=JQ-nesCuIB&sig=ACfU3U0dobsTgmh0-XEQ1vOVNIzpcoG_DA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiMxL7PjM_pAhWNzjgGHYwOB7UQ6AEwAXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Emanuel%20Pfoh%20mythicism&f=false
            I can’t find anything from Arthur Droge that’s mythicist and all I can find from Norman Simms (who’s an English professor) is something where he proposes that Jesus wasn’t Jewish.
            https://books.google.com.au/books?id=YUhWBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT181&lpg=PT181&dq=Norman+Simms+%22Jesus%22&source=bl&ots=8p1Tebd7nV&sig=ACfU3U1FPPRpX5cgSXCOcLxHSQGTHzW0QQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiL8567k8_pAhVaxDgGHXSaDi4Q6AEwAXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Norman%20Simms%20%22Jesus%22&f=false

            And Blackhirst’s “Flavian thesis” has been completely discredited. Not only by actual scholarship but most harshly by Robert Price and Richard Carrier.

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      3. “Thus, it is the damn near official position of American Atheists,”
        I find that difficult to believe, an awful many Atheists even in the USA basically keep to themselves and don’t bother themselves with these silly attention-seeking atheism advocates (and the petty politics of these groups). And I think the silent majority of Atheists in America don’t really take whether Jesus was historical or not seriously, at most they might say “oh I read something convincing that said he might not have even existed” but not really have a strong opinion on the matter. And even if that is true; that’s just the USA. And the USA is not the end and all. Beyond North America; Mythicism seems to be treated with extreme skepticism by atheists.

        “it was extremely popular for some time among Afrocentric scholars (born out of the Civil Rights movements of the 60’s culturally),”
        Huh? I’m struggling to see why Jesus Mythicism would be relevant to that. After-all Africa is very religious, either Christian or Muslim.

        “very popular among some smaller new-age religions like Theosophy (a la Harriette and Frank Curtiss), etc.”
        Well… …these “small new age religions like Theosophy” are basically insignificant.

        “One can look at its primary publishers as case examples: Pitchstone Publishing, Hypatia Press, Prometheus Books, American Atheist Press, Stellar House Publishing, etc., all publishing houses with philosophical outlooks which are at the exclusion of traditional Christian values.”
        Those are all minor publishers with tiny distribution and marketing.

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        1. “I find that hard to believe”

          And yet, the head of American Atheist Press is a mythicist who almost exclusively publishes pro-mythicist arguments when it comes to books on Christianity.

          Also this on their resource section (nothing for historicity):
          https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/did-jesus-exist/

          When I say it was virtually their official position of the *organization*, that was based on the fact that it is officially pushed as an organization dogma.

          “Beyond North America; Mythicism seems to be treated with extreme skepticism by atheists.”

          Incorrect. Actually in the United Kingdom almost 40% of people doubt Jesus existed at all. Barna Group has calculated this at 22% of the UK thinking Jesus did not exist at all and 17% being agnostic on his existence. They did likewise work here finding that 8% of the United States population does not think Jesus existed. Barney Zwartz calculated in Australia that 10 in 2500 people thought Jesus did not exist.

          There have been a number of surveys on this, Barna Group is leading them. I’d suggest checking them out.

          “Huh? I’m struggling to see why Jesus Mythicism would be relevant to that. After-all Africa is very religious, either Christian or Muslim.”

          A) Civil Rights movements were faced with opposition by the Christian right
          B) Afrocentric scholars are opposed to colonialist written history, thus they are attempting to illuminate African roles, or (in some cases) entirely rewrite it, thus they don’t like primarily colonial white-man run Biblical studies.

          Mythicism has strong connections with oppressed classes and class conflict. So it is no surprising that Afrocentric scholars, largely molded by the Civil Rights conflicts, took it up.

          “Well… …these “small new age religions like Theosophy” are basically insignificant.”

          Actually they have had a growing popularity among the latest generation.
          https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/10/01/new-age-beliefs-common-among-both-religious-and-nonreligious-americans/

          “Those are all minor publishers with tiny distribution and marketing.”

          Prometheus Books and American Atheist Press are actually the two largest Atheist and secularist publishers in the entire USA. Pitchstone Publishing is also gaining notoriety now, including recognition in academic journals (primarily for its publications of Price’s and Carrier’s work).

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          1. “And yet, the head of American Atheist Press…”
            But hardly anybody cares about the head of American Atheist Press. You speak of this guy as though he’s some sort of either renown figure or public celebrity.

            “Incorrect. Actually in the United Kingdom almost 40% of people doubt Jesus existed at all. Barna Group…”
            The only other time I’ve heard of Barna group was someone completely rubbishing their credibility and showing evidence that they might have a right-wing Christian agenda.

            “…in Australia that 10 in 2500 people…”
            Proportionally; that’s almost nobody.

            “Civil Rights movements were faced with opposition by the Christian right”
            And also embraced by the Christian-affiliated left. Dr Martin Luther king was after-all a Baptist Minister.
            
“Afrocentric scholars are opposed to colonialist written history, thus they are attempting to illuminate African roles, or (in some cases) entirely rewrite it, thus they don’t like primarily colonial white-man run Biblical studies.”
            Well this is the first I’ve ever heard of this and it makes little sense to me so excuse me if I take what you’re telling me with a grain of salt.
            Because the wide adherence to monotheistic religion in Africa has little to nothing to do with colonialism and is largely due to Africans themselves. Africans don’t actually associate Christianity with Europe (why would they?). Christianity and Islam were both widespread through much of Africa long before Europeans began colonising. And the missionaries and clergy in Africa acted independently of European colonisers and often opposed the worst atrocities resulting from colonialism.
            If “Afro-centric scholars” in America really want to illuminate “African roles” and “re-write things”, surely they’d only need to emphasise the large amount of deeds done by Christians or Muslims who were indigenous Africans? I can’t see any logical reason why they would adopt Jesus mythicism especially given the strong adherence to Abrahamic religion across Africa (and amongst African-Americans).

            “Mythicism has strong connections with oppressed classes and class conflict”
            Erm… …in my experience; almost all Jesus Mythicists are people who have rejected Christian indoctrination and have an axe to grind.
            Oppressed classes seem to be the most embracing of religions.

            “Actually they have had a growing popularity among the latest generation.”
            Even if that’s true; they’re still insignificant fringe religions. Go and ask the general what they think of Theosophy and see how many have even heard of it to begin with.

            “Prometheus Books and American Atheist Press are actually the two largest Atheist and secularist publishers in the entire USA”
            And to reiterate: “Atheist and secularist publishers” are a drop in the bucket in publishing.
            When people think of publishers of books, what comes to mind are companies like HarperCollins or Penguin or Simon & Schuster. If they think of scholastic books, they think of the publishers of their own textbooks like McGraw-Hill.
            Hardly anybody has heard of Prometheus Books and American Atheist Press nor is interested in finding out. Because most people have little to no interest in their niche of “atheist and secular” publishing.

            “Pitchstone Publishing is also gaining notoriety now, including recognition in academic journals (primarily for its publications of Price’s and Carrier’s work).”
            How does that make sense when both Carrier and Price are persona-non-grata’s in academia?

            I’m getting the overwhelming impression that you live in a bubble that’s isolated from mainstream society.

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          2. It is amazing how wrong you are on just about everything. Like you have Carrier levels of misrepresentation of everything going on.

            “But hardly anybody cares about the head of American Atheist Press. You speak of this guy as though he’s some sort of either renown figure or public celebrity.”

            Other than the thousands who keep buying his work, funding him, attending his lectures, etc. Frank R. Zindler, the head of the press, is actually a huge name in atheism thanks to his close alliance with Madalyn Murray O’Hair and… you guessed it, mythicism. He is, in fact, internationally known for it.

            “The only other time I’ve heard of Barna group was someone completely rubbishing their credibility and showing evidence that they might have a right-wing Christian agenda.”

            Which demonstrates what? If they have a bias towards Christianity, they should be wanting to sway the evidence to be LOWER. 40% is more than a third of the population lmao.

            “Proportionally; that’s almost nobody.”

            That is 98,400 people roughly. Yeah, almost nobody.

            “And also embraced by the Christian-affiliated left. Dr Martin Luther king was after-all a Baptist Minister.”

            Irrelevant to my point.

            “Well this is the first I’ve ever heard of this and it makes little sense to me so excuse me if I take what you’re telling me with a grain of salt.
            Because the wide adherence to monotheistic religion in Africa has little to nothing to do with colonialism and is largely due to Africans themselves. Africans don’t actually associate Christianity with Europe (why would they?). Christianity and Islam were both widespread through much of Africa long before Europeans began colonising. And the missionaries and clergy in Africa acted independently of European colonisers and often opposed the worst atrocities resulting from colonialism.”

            Well, maybe try researching more and you’d know of it then. And if it makes little sense to you, then it is because you aren’t actually aware of the history. And actually the acceptance of monotheism is largely due to colonialist conflict (largely England, France, Germany, and then also Islamic nations, especially the mass conquests of the Ottomans).

            “If “Afro-centric scholars” in America really want to illuminate “African roles” and “re-write things”, surely they’d only need to emphasise the large amount of deeds done by Christians or Muslims who were indigenous Africans? I can’t see any logical reason why they would adopt Jesus mythicism especially given the strong adherence to Abrahamic religion across Africa (and amongst African-Americans).”

            I guess we are pretending that Christians and Muslims just played nice and didn’t erase the national heritage of the lands they invaded, and didn’t forcibly evangelize and convert people, and destroy and remove their traditions?

            “Erm… …in my experience; almost all Jesus Mythicists are people who have rejected Christian indoctrination and have an axe to grind.
            Oppressed classes seem to be the most embracing of religions.”

            Oppressed classes are the most to either embrace or reject it. See: French Revolution, October Revolution, the Japanese anarchists in 1911, etc.

            “When people think of publishers of books, what comes to mind are companies like HarperCollins or Penguin or Simon & Schuster. If they think of scholastic books, they think of the publishers of their own textbooks like McGraw-Hill.
            Hardly anybody has heard of Prometheus Books and American Atheist Press nor is interested in finding out. Because most people have little to no interest in their niche of “atheist and secular” publishing.”

            Other than the thousands and thousands and thousands of people who read Robert Price.

            “How does that make sense when both Carrier and Price are persona-non-grata’s in academia?

            I’m getting the overwhelming impression that you live in a bubble that’s isolated from mainstream society.”

            Must be why I have innumerable citations and references to their work. Super “persona-non-grata”.

            I’m getting the overwhelming impression you’ve never studied a single one of these issues in your life and just want to pretend mythicism isn’t a popular thing.

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          3. Since the civility in this discussion seems to be on the decline, I think I’ll intervene. I think Chris and Daniel are largely talking at cross-purposes. Chris is, correctly in my opinion, saying that Mythicism has gained some traction in activist atheist circles, in recent years. I’d argue this is a fairly unremarkable observation. Daniel, as far as I can see, is saying that doesn’t mean much because anti-atheist circles are a tiny bubble of nerds and Mythicism is largely insignificant. I think that is correct as well.

            Most people have never heard of Mythicism. When I explain what it is to my fairly well-educated and informed friends their reaction is to note that it seems a strange idea and then to express a distinct lack of interest in the whole issue. As for how much traction it has gained among atheists, that seems to depend on where you are. It appears to be more widespread among American atheists, though I suspect Daniel is right that this impression is likely amplified by the fact that many self-identifying American atheists are rather more activist and stridently vocal than their counterparts in more secular countries like the UK and Britain. Chris has cited that British survey that reports a very high number of respondents who dispute the existence of Jesus, but I have observed that questions like that get strange responses because most people don’t make a distinction between the historical Jesus and the “Jesus Christ” of Christianity. So I find that survey result fairly suspect.

            Certainly here in Australia I can confidently report that most of the very large number of atheists here are (i) not activist at all and (ii) not Mythers. Even among those who are more activist, Mythicism is largely held in low regard. The one strident Myther on the Atheist Foundation of Australia forum is usually regarded as a nuisance and a kook. A couple of years ago he summoned Neil Godfrey and a few of his minions to the forum to reinforce his arguments because he was getting his butt kicked there. Godfrey and his crew we quickly met with scorn and strong counter-arguments and he flounced off back to his blog to puzzle over why so many people could think he was a pompous clown (I could give him a hint). I’d also observe that most people I know are atheists and agnostics and none of them are remotely interested in Mythicism if they are aware of it at all.

            As for increased traction in the academic sphere, that too is undeniable (as Chris notes) but still pretty insignificant (as Daniel says). Carrier’s book has been out for six years now and has received almost entirely negative reviews from scholars. Lataster’s book did get an endorsement of a sort from Crossley, but when I queried why Crossley explained that he believed in “the expression of diverse voices and opinions”, but got a little evasive when I asked him about the quality of this particular voice and opinion. He also hinted that Lataster came from a non-white ethnic background, but got evasive again when asked for details or asked what that had to do with the quality of Lataster arguments. I got the distinct impression his endorsement was more about a separate ideological agenda of his own. So we are seeing something of a (slight) change in how much attention Mythicism is getting in the academy, but I see little sign that this is turning into the Great Awakening that Mythicists have been predicting to me for decades now. We will see, but I suspect the attention will not turn out to be beneficial to Mythicism.

            Anyway, that’s my view of this exchange. If Chris and/or Daniel disagree then fine, but I think both of you have made your views clear and the exchange is now getting repetitive. It’s also drifted far off topic, given the article above is about Romans 1:3. And regulars here know I’m have only small tolerance for extended off topic discussions in the comments section.

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          4. The Barna question was three choice
            1. Jesus was a real person who actually lived 61%
            2. Jesus is a mythical or fictional character 22%
            3. Don’t know 17%
            Now if one thinks that Jesus did exist but much about his life is mythical, one might well waver between 1 & 2 (and even 3). If I thought the surveyor was from a Christian org like Barna, I might opt for 2 (note that 2 doesn’t say ‘never existed’) even though I do think there is an actual human at the kernel. I don’t think one can use this survey question to show the percentage of full fledged Jesus mythicists in the UK.

          5. “If I thought the surveyor was from a Christian org like Barna, I might opt for 2 (note that 2 doesn’t say ‘never existed’) even though I do think there is an actual human at the kernel.”

            Yes. And this is why I was wary of this result. I’d say that the Jesus of Christianity is substantially a “mythical or fictional character” in a sense, though I would not choose those particular words. Yet I clearly accept that a historical most likely existed. I’ve seen online polls like this one where in the comments people have stated that they picked “Mythical” and then said that they thought he was derived from a historical person. The categories here are too ill-defined in people’s minds to take results like this as meaning anything significant.

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        2. Dear Daniel:

          It may be incredible to you how mythicism is very much embedded in the Atheist, Skeptic and Humanist movements elsewhere. I can confirm that it is the case that it is popular in Atheist groups in lots of countries. Besides my UU Humanist Skeptic website, I also have a blog for the Spanish-Speaking public: called Razón y política pública (Reason and public policy). In one of the Atheist communities I go to in Facebook, I said that a particular mythicist book was worse than bad (to not say the word that adequately describes it). One of its members asked me to show the evidence against this extremely bad mythicist book, called Lo siento mucho, pero … Jesús nunca existió (I’m Sorry, But Jesus Never Existed by Ricardo Alonso Zavala Toia. By the way, Zavala Toia is a very well known militant atheist in South American atheist communities. The book is a horrendous amalgam of every mythicist theory you could ever conceive mixed with deep misunderstandings of Christian (particularly Catholic) theology.

          As I was asked, I went to my blog Razón y política pública, and published a series of articles against it (everything in a respectful tone, as I do always). The President of Humanistas de Puerto Rico, Eva Quiñones, let the author know about my publications. I received no response from him. Yet, that and other things I said in my blog, made Eva ask me to do a series of conferences on the Historical Jesus.

          I was very, very, very reluctant to do them, because I have seen how mythicists, especially not-well-read public, have responded to many scholars in the United States. Ehrman is correct when he says that they tend to be more vicious than the way Christians respond to his popular books. The other reason for my reluctance was that I’m not a Bible scholar. I’m more a communicator than anything else. My field is in Philosophy of Science and Epistemology.

          Reluctantly, I understood why she asked me to do the conferences, and, with a bit of fear, I went and did two of the three: First one-Did Jesus of Nazareth Exist?; second one, Who was Jesus of Galilee; third one, How Jesus Was Made God? Only the third one was not given because of the pandemic. I also provided written elaborations of my conference with all of my references, so that people can see for themselves where was I getting my information from.

          The response to my first conference?! … Some people in the Humanist community respected me, but there others who were VERY VICIOUS. I dealt these with a lot of patience for an entire week. However, some of the attacks were on the verge of being personal, and some were so aggressive that even Eva and others in the directive of Humanistas were extremely upset by people’s behavior. So, I’ve been there… I didn’t like it at all. And be sure that I needed a well deserved break after a week of continuous, vicious attacks.

          So, yeah. I can tell you from experience that a lot of atheists are too committed to mythicism. It is a real problem, and you really need the nerves of steel to deal with the emotional responses from many within the Atheist and Humanist movements. It’s not easy.

          One of the reasons I’m still challenging the whole thing is because that I find hypocritical that atheists and humanists say and preach about science and how we must look at the consensus of scientists, understand it, and communicate it to the public. Yet, they make glorious exceptions when it comes to Bible scholarship, or things about the history of Christianity which are ideologically inconvenient. Even, I had to argue with a president of a known Hispanic organization in the U.S., because he was a mythicist and wanted to challenge my historicist views by regurgitating refuted old mythicist arguments.

          In Spain, there are other mythicist authors, like Fernando Conde Torrens who has published an incredibly loony “theory”: that Constantine and many of his advisors invented Christianity in the year 303, and that he had a school of scribes who created the Gospel and every single writing of the earlier four centuries (with the writing styles of each of those centuries). I can’t make this up! When a Spanish scholar, Antonio Piñero, was asked about Conde’s work, he said that he wouldn’t spend his time refuting something that was clearly wrong. After that, Conde Torrens made a series of attacks against Piñero in cyberspace. Of course, a lot of people backed Conde up. It may seem implausible … but again … some people believe that 5G technology has spread COVID-19, and there are people today who believe the Earth is flat so, what else is new? I had to talk briefly about Conde Torrens in my first conference because, even though he is more popular in Spain, I was asked about his book in Puerto Rico of all places!

          THIS IS HOW IT IS!!! I know that it is tough to believe. I also know that many atheists and humanists are well aware of the problem, but this issue is pervasive.

          1. Hola Ramon.

            I don’t doubt a thing you’re telling me. But I do feel that I need to ask you a semi-personal question:
            Are you Puerto Rican?
            Because if you are; could it also be that Puerto Rico is especially influenced by the USA and its social trends, which include “new atheists” embracing Jesus mythicism?

            If you’re not Puerto Rican, then my theory falls over. 🙂

          2. HI Daniel, but I’m not called Ramón. I’m called Pedro.

            Although the matter of whether or not we are part of the U.S. isn’t clear (we belong to, but not part of the U.S.), but yes, we are very influenced by the U.S. However, because we speak Spanish in every day life, we are also influenced from Spanish speaking countries. Ateístas de Puerto Rico was for a long time associated with American Atheists, just as Humanistas de Puerto Rico is part of the American Humanists Association. In Ateístas and Humanistas, mythicism was very popular. My first and second conferences have been a rude awakening to both groups (particularly Humanistas) on how much BS mythicism brings to the discussion. Some people in Puerto Rico have recommended me to read Richard Carrier (even some who haven’t read his works, because they don’t read English).

            However, due to the fact that we speak Spanish, I’ve also been recommended literature coming from Latin America and Spain (as I stated in my previous comment), and they add it to the arsenal. I was recommended Zavala Toia’s work in the forum of Ateístas. In my university, I was recommended Conde Torrens. So, we have influence from everywhere, not just the U.S.

  9. I spent a lot of time at one point trying to verify or refute Doherty’s claims about his qualifications. Eventually, I tracked down an Earl J. Doherty who was awarded an Ordinary BA with Distinction by Carleton University in 1968, having had a spell out of his studies for health reasons. No guarantee it’s the same person of course but it seems a reasonable fit.

    The clue as to why he is so coy about naming the institution may perhaps be found in the 1965 degree convocation. (https://archive.org/details/carletoncovon1965carl/page/8/mode/2up) On page 9 it notes that Earl J. Doherty was awarded the Ottawa Women’s Canadian Club War Memorial Scholarship, donated to enable an ex-serviceman or a close family member to study at university. However, they always had a preference for degrees that had some link to Canada (the successor scholarship is more tightly defined and only awarded to those doing Canadian Studies).

    Now, this is not conclusive. Until I think the 1980s, it was a scholarship for any arts degree. So it could have been used for somebody doing Classical Languages and Ancient History. And Carleton did (and still does) offer such a programme.

    So I wondered if the explanation is that he did a degree in History, with a strong Canadian element, but also some elements on Greek or Roman studies. That might just explain it. It would certainly explain why he clearly speaks no ancient languages and has limited understanding of the ancient world.

    Never was sufficiently exercised to find out more about it by asking him – not of course that I could have trusted his answer.

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  10. As a note:

    I would not say Doherty’s work was responsible for popularizing mythicism among amateurs. His was actually a part of a large wave of mythicist books that all came around during the same time-frame (Acharya S, Earl Doherty, Freke and Gandy all published at the same time). In the 90’s there were some 30 mythicist books that I know of published by amateurs, so Doherty was not the one really to spur this.

    It was largely the work of Rudolf Augstein, G. A. Wells, Barbara G. Walker, Yosef ben-Jochannan, John M. Allegro, as well as a small subset of Dutch figures that led to the growing media attention, starting in the late 60’s and early 70’s (Allegro and Wells striking first with their publications, followed by Augstein). Walker popularized it among a few Feminist circles, while Yosef ben-Jochannan started entire mythicist schools of thought among Afrocentric scholars and students.

    What can be said is that he popularized a form of Couchoud-Wells theoretical blending, which Carrier then takes after very closely (along with his Bayesian approach). I consider him a part of a Couchoud-Wells school of thought, along with Carrier, Fitzgerald, and a handful of others.

    Check out “JESUS SKEPTICISM FROM 1940 TO THE PRESENT” in my draft:

    https://www.academia.edu/43141837/THE_QUEST_OF_THE_MYTHICAL_JESUS_A_History_of_Jesus_Skepticism_ca._1574_to_the_Present

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    1. Perhaps it depends on which other amateurs one was hanging around with at the time. I recall barely seeing Mythicism in any form mentioned on the internet in the 90s, apart from the advocacy of the weird “Piso Theory” by a couple of zealots on the Usenet group alt.conspiracy. But by the late 90s I began seeing plenty of atheists and sceptics boosting Doherty’s website and earlier books on groups like sci.skeptic and alt.atheism. I paid attention to bad history by New Agers back then (I had more time on my hands) and so am well aware of Barbara Walker’s many sins, but did not even notice she was a Mythicist. Freke and Gandy did pop up, but mainly later (early 2000s) and mostly cited in support of “Acharya S” once her stuff got popularised by that silly Zeitgeist movie.

      But point taken, so maybe I’ll change “… revival of Mythicism among other amateurs” to “… revival of Mythicism among other atheists”.

      I’d like to enthusiastically endorse Chris’ excellent study of the history of Mythicism as a concept. It’s book-length, and it’s a remarkable piece of meticulous scholarship. I stayed up way past my bedtime reading it last night and have learned more from it than anything I’ve read in months.

      1. I would perhaps suggest it to, “English language revival of theories along Couchoud’s school of thought.” I am more specific on that because Couchoud’s ideas continued in France in rationalist associations and especially the Cercle Ernest Renan (founded by Georges Ory and Prosper Alfaric).

        In North America and the UK, Madalyn Murray O’Hair, Frank Zindler, G. A. Wells (especially after his debate with Morton Smith at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor), and a few others were already “reviving” mythicism in general. Doherty’s contribution is a revival of many ideas originating with Couchoud (along with his own innovations), and then merging them with Wellsian concepts (Wells being the one to convince him of mythicism).

        Doherty definitely had an influence on the internet scene, but given so many websites are now lost, I’ve been unable to document the extent to which this was, unfortunately.

        And thank you for the endorsement! Means a lot Tim!

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        1. The Couchoud reference is possibly a little too detailed and technical for what I’m saying at this point, though I mention that Doherty revived Couchoud’s ideas later in my article. So I’ve gone with “[Doherty] is arguably responsible for the recent resurgence of Mythicism among other atheists”, which I think captures what I’m trying to say. I’m really focusing on Mythicism among current atheists, given atheist bad history is subject of my blog.

          And no problem on the endorsement, your book is a very useful and much needed piece of research. Unfortunately it was also the topic I was toying with if I ever go back to university and do a PhD thesis, so there goes that idea. ;>

      2. “small subset of Dutch figures”
        Now I’m curious, me being Dutch myself. I only heard of JM until less than 10 years ago, via Ken Humphreys and his Jesusneverexisted site. So can you give me a few names?

        Those who can read German and like to see “plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose” confirmed, this is a complete takedown of Augstein’s Jesus Menschensohn from 1972:

        https://schwertdesgeistes.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/buchbesprechung-jesus-menschensohn-von-rudolf-augstein/

        Augstein was a reporter for the prominent German magazine Der Spiegel.

        1. G. A. van den Bergh van Eysinga
          A. D. Loman (he later switched to historicity)
          Gerardus Bolland
          Eric van der Kaaij
          Pierre Krijbolder
          Samuel Naber
          Allard Pierson

          These are the more notable Dutch figures. Related have also been Hermann Detering, Robert M. Price, and Darrell Doughty, who are basically German and English continuations of these Dutch scholars.

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          1. Thanks – after dealing with some problems I managed to get access to your studies. I just read the chapter on the Dutch Radicals. I take some issue with

            “The Dutch Radicals are an important but oft neglected part of history …..”
            1. You noticed yourself that their influence abroad was minimal, ao due to the language barrier. That means they were not important.
            2. Check Dutch Wikipedia. The only one who is still known (there is a museum named after him) and hence has a serious entry is Allard Pierson. His connection to JM isn’t mentioned though (it’s new to me as well) and the book you mention, Sermon on the Mount from 1878, isn’t even mentioned in the list of his works. It is mentioned in the entry Radicale Kritiek, which consists of mere four lines.
            It seems that you are more interested in them these days than any Dutch scholar …..

            As for Van der Kaaij (who doesn’t even have an entry at Wikipedia), as a reader of Trouw I remember the article on his book; except for a few academics nobody cared. Reformatorisch Dagblad, an orthodox protestant newspaper, doesn’t even mention him. The other orthodox protestant newspaper, Nederlands Dagblad, doesn’t say he moved to a more liberal denomination (a hard thing to do, because mainstream PKN already is very liberal), but got appointed in another town. He received much less attention than Minister Van der Hoeven, when she proposed in 2005 to take ID seriously.
            You probably have to place the Dutch Radicals in that good old tradition, beginning at the end of the 16th Century, of Dutch protestant theologians wanting to dispute everything and anything (I mean, recently I learned that even calvinist existentialism was a thing). It’s why there are so many denominations in The Netherlands.
            Also 170 years is very optimistic. Pierson’s book is from 1878 and the last one died in 1957. That’s not even 80 years.

          2. What Chris actually wrote was ““The Dutch Radicals are an important but oft neglected part of history in the long battles for Pauline authenticity and Jesus Skepticism“. And that is true. You cut out half the sentence. Given that Chris wasn’t referring to history generally, or even the history of NT studies overall, but rather to the history of these particular specialised topics, your comments are not very useful. Please don’t half-quote people to make a weak point.

          3. @Frank B a few things.

            1) “You noticed yourself that their influence abroad was minimal, ao due to the language barrier. That means they were not important.”

            No actually it does not mean they are not important. They did exert influence on the rest of this debate as a whole, they were just not broadly accepted.

            As I continued on, they have had a lasting impact even to this very day, with Robert M. Price. Is he now no longer important?

            2) “Check Dutch Wikipedia. The only one who is still known (there is a museum named after him) and hence has a serious entry is Allard Pierson. His connection to JM isn’t mentioned though (it’s new to me as well) and the book you mention, Sermon on the Mount from 1878, isn’t even mentioned in the list of his works. It is mentioned in the entry Radicale Kritiek, which consists of mere four lines.
            It seems that you are more interested in them these days than any Dutch scholar”

            Okay, most of that is largely irrelevant.

            Also, I take it you did not bother to read my footnotes. There is actually a very well known Dutch scholar who has a large interest in them: Eduard Verhoef (who is a leading specialist on the Pauline Epistles). In addition, some English scholars have taken notice of them deeply as well, such as J. C. O’Neill and David Peabody (who has a particular interest in Meijboom).

            “Also 170 years is very optimistic. Pierson’s book is from 1878 and the last one died in 1957. That’s not even 80 years.”

            Incorrect, I noted in a footnote that there are (to my knowledge) still active figures today in the Dutch Radical tradition, including some who were friends or under the tutelage of Van den Bergh van Eysinga, see J. H. Ritzema Bos, E. Frater Smid, and Rev. Mrs. M. J. Beukema-Faber.

            I also stated 170 years since Bauer that scholars in similar schools of thought have existed.

            I also, in my “Early Jesus Skeptics” section actually note some of the earlier skeptical Dutch theologians, such as Vorstius and his followers.

            I would recommend reading my work closer before providing malformed and incomplete quotes of what I said, and misrepresenting other information I presented.

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          4. @ToN: OK, then I misunderstood.

            @Chris: “Is he now no longer important?”
            1) Irrelevant for my point – Price may be important while the Dutch Radicals aren’t.
            2) To answer your question: in The Netherlands – and that’s by definition where the Dutch Radicals came from – no, he isn’t. Just compare – about 24% of the entire Dutch population rejects Evolution Theory. So the answer is no.

            “Eduard Verhoef”
            So well known that he doesn’t have an entry on Dutch Wikipedia at all (unlike for instance Jona Lendering, Fik Meijer and …… Richard Carrier), isn’t mentioned on the Mainzer Beobachter and similar blogs and hardly makes it to Dutch christian newspapers, let alone non-religious ones.
            Sure.
            He may be important for your studies but that doesn’t mean he’s important in his native country and that was my point, whether you think it irrelevant or not.

            “I would recommend reading my work”
            Excellent advise, especially after I wrote that I yesterday just finished the chapter on the Dutch Radicals and looked up the names you mentioned.

            As this is going nowhere you can have the last word; these are my last. Thanks that I learned something new, even if it’s unimportant from my Dutch pov. You may have noticed that it’s similar to Pedro’s (I only read his comments today). I’ll stay outside the discussion how important they are for the USA, thank you very much.

          5. Let me say something about the Dutch situation, as I am relatively well aware of that.
            The Dutch Radicals were a small minority in the Dutch academic world during ca 1850-1950, in a period in which such extreme criticism was part of the enthousiastic embrace of historical criticism. Eduard Verhoef is a scholar who has studied them, but not because he shares their position but out of historical interest and because the Dutch Radicals have some pertinent questions that should always be addressed by critical scholarship. After ca 1950 the mythicist position has had no academic representation in the Netherlands as far as I know and can be considered as a curiosity from the past. The hassle around E. van der Kaaij a couple of years ago evoked the reaction of some academics (because he was given a platform in a sensationalist newspaper), but his book is really bad and has had virtually no impact.

    2. Thanks for the link Chris. I’ve skimmed some of it quickly, and am danger of following the example of Tim and spending too much time tonight going through it.
      I will fight the temptation, but look forward to working through it over the coming days.

    3. Esteemed Hansen
      This is a wonderful project. I am very grateful to you for attempting to decode the Soviet phenomena, though your account differs somewhat from what I had gathered from searching around, not knowing Russian.

      The question of the vicissitudes of the Christ Myth theory in academic writing were what interested me. This is because Mythicizing writers are under the impression that the theory has not had a proper hearing, that the hidden influence of the church keeps it down, it hasnt been tried, even that it new and cutting edge – when in fact (to put it crudely) a huge, well funded, state supported research program was based on it … and the researchers all ended up historicists. It should be understood as a failed research program, the phlogiston theory of Christian origins.

      In the description of events, one might distinguish *when Soviet historians close to the matter gave up the theory* and *when Soviet historians openly expressed the opposing theory*. My belief, partly from something I had seen (I can’t at the moment recover it) about the late A. Kazhdan (a genuinely great 20th c historian who later came to America) was that the sectarian milieu revealed by the Dead Sea Scrolls broke up the premises of the official account and that the cognoscenti stopped believing it in the 50s. The development of the all important Robertson-Kovalev debate from the late 50s on was the means by which people ‘came out’ so that by the mid 60s the danger had passed. (The Andreev article you cite, machine translated here https://pastebin.com/4GSw62Kt represents Kazhdan as only arriving at historicism in 1966, but the ‘anti-historicist’ sentence he quotes from 1965 is irrelevant subterfuge.)

      1. Note that the end of Kazhdan’s relatively late 1970 paper on Engels’ ‘historicism’ shows the paper as a whole is a kind of elder mentor’s act of protection for the younger scholars who are working on the new basis”
        “The beginning of a reexamination of the tradition thus established was provided by a work by S. I. Kovalev published in 1958. (51) A profound study of the facts, primarily by scholars of the middle and younger generations (E. M. Shtaerman, M. M.
        Kublanov, I. S. Sventsitskaia, M. K. Trofimova, and S. S. Averintsev) made it possible to discard a number of the hypercritical positions. This zigzag movement of scholarship should not be regarded as amazing or, even less, anything to be ashamed
        of: it was not hard to go beyond the limits of
        reason in the struggle against orthodox confessionalism. Study of the heritage of
        Engels, whose views with respect to matters of the greatest significance are splendidly confirmed by new finds, will facilitate the development of our studies of early Christianity. ”
        https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2753/RSP1061-1967100181
        https://sci-hub.tw/10.2753/RSP1061-1967100181

        PS
        Engels is actually not bad, considering; his dating of Revelation as earliest is a false inference from his possibly correct view that the author is expressing some kind of rage derived from a Palestinian Jewish background. (Cp the early date of a secular scholar like J W Marshall “Parables of War: Reading John’s Jewish Apocalypse” who thinks the rage pertains to the ongoing Jewish war and the threat to the Temple etc.) Similarly the failure to see that Paul is earliest can be derived from the difficulties about authentic letters and the uttlerly false view that Paul’s authentic letters are not typically ‘pharasaical’. Paul does hold the special optional view (but one held by many, eg Habad today) that the return of Davidic rule and the time of resurrection and Olam haBah somehow come together. For Paul Jesus has already started the process of cosmic transformation as ‘first fruits of the resurrection’. The appearance that he is not ruling, and has not the psalmic royal title of ‘son of God’ is a momentary hiatus; he will be recognized by Jewry as king and by all as world emperor — and begin completing the planetary resurrection operation in … maybe a couple weeks. It is just a question of when ‘enough gentiles have come in’ to greet the King/Christ and thus make sense of various prophecies of burying idols and streaming to Jerusalem etc. Pauls violent rejection of the nomos of Moses for his gentiles permeates everything as ‘anti Jewish’ and ‘novel’, but it is the view of the rabbis themselves (they insist rather on the nomos of Noah).

        1. I am currently finishing “Paul was Not a Christian” by Pamela Eisenbaum (2010). Highly recommended. The book is relevant to the above comment, especially in her discussion of how Paul referenced the Law for his gentile audience.

          1. I highly recommend the short, , hyper-learned
            but inexplicably readable book by Paula Fredriksen, “Paul, The Pagan’s Apostle” It is a reconstruction with some speculative aspects, but articulates a framework one can use for onself. (It was a preliminary study for the more recent “When Christians were Jews,” which includes inevitable speculation but also overturns a hundred a priori prejudices. But my own interest in mostly in Paul.)

            My feeling is that this so-called ‘Paul within Judaism’ school Eisenbaum and Fredriksen represent, and its predecessors from Gastan and Gager onward, have by now completely destroyed the entire traditional framework of Paul interpretation, even if there is plenty to criticize in particular writers. (A learned sympathetic overview: http://www.jjmjs.org/uploads/1/1/9/0/11908749/novenson_-_whither_the_paul.pdf ) The old reading lived too long by dint of the learning and brilliance of what might be called Lutheran scholarship. These writers could not take on board really elementary things that in a sense they knew, e.g. that for Paul, as for 2 Ezra/Baruch, the resurrection is a cosmic transformation – but that with Jesus /it is actually happening/, the first fruits of the transformation are here, the Law is still around but about to vanish. The idea of founding a ‘religion’ (opposed to something called “Judaism) in which we overcome the Law etc etc, and that whole cursed dialectic is infinitely far from his mind; he has only moments in which to labor & the sublunary realm, in his mind, is literally collapsing.

            In the end one starts to think that Paul is not only an unaltered (but ‘messianic’!) Pharisee, but close in many ways to what later surfaced as the rabbis – who e.g. share his view of what a rightminded gentile looks like and see no need for proselytes. The difference is that he is a quasi-proto-rabbi on a precipice overlooking the Olam ha Ba that the first resurrection has inaugurated.

            But time will tell how the reading pans out.

  11. Great article Tim. Thank you!

    If the Apostle Paul believed that Jesus was a celestial being (as opposed to an earthly one) and this was the message he was trying to portray in his Epistiles then he’s done a pretty lousy job of it. But this is not the case because any straight forward reading of his writings (without trying to bend them to fit a pre-concieved position) indicates that he understood Jesus to be an earthy man and Romans 1:3 is a clear example of that.

    Richard Carrier and his ilk have a lot riding on this passage because to accept it as a reference to an earthly Jesus significantly undermines his mythicist narrative. And yet remarkably he regards Romans 1:3 as evidence for historicity as if the debate is not settled when clearly for him it is.

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  12. Much if not all of the New Testament believes that the universe consists of two basic levels of things; 1) obvious visible material things, visible with our eyes; like our physical bodies and “flesh.’ But then above and better than that, are 2) invisible “spiritual” things.

    So if Paul says that Jesus is born from the line of David, “according to the flesh”? He means according to a lower, inferior, and ultimately false, “fleshly” tradition.

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  13. Hello Tim
    I really enjoy reading your blogs here. I think I caught an error though:
    “we know of mainly via the works of those who argued against him, particularly Tertullian (150-c.240 AD) and Epiphanius (c. 32-403 AD).”
    I’m assuming Epiphanius is supposed to be from 320 not 32 AD?

    In your blogs about Mythicism you have spoken before that there are ‘heresies’ we only know about because of people writing against them after they were gone. I guess Epiphanius on Marconianism is one example, could you cite some others please?
    Many thanks.

    1. “I’m assuming Epiphanius is supposed to be from 320 not 32 AD?”

      Yes. Otherwise he would have died at the ripe old age of 371. Fixed.

      “could you cite some others please?”

      There are plenty, though in some cases we don’t know if the names of the “heresy” given is just a variant name or a sub-group of belief system known elsewhere. We have no writings by the Ebionites, for example, but they are mentioned and argued against by a range of apologetic writers. The early variants of Christianity that the proto-orthodox writers considered “heretical” tended to fall into five main categories:

    2. Gnosticism (particularly Valentinianism) – reliance on revealed knowledge from an unknowable God, a distinct divinity from the Demiurge who created and oversees the material world.
    3. Marcionism – the God of Jesus was a different God from the God of the Old Testament.
    4. Montanism – relied on prophetic revelations from the Holy Spirit.
    5. Adoptionism – Jesus was not born the Son of God, but was adopted at his baptism, resurrection or ascension.
    6. Docetism – Jesus was pure spirit and his physical form an illusion.
    7. There was also a lot of overlap between these categories – many Gnostics were also Docetic, for example. So we have the names of a large number of these sects who (seem to have) believed variants of these ideas or combinations of them, but we only have writings from a handful of them.

      1. Thanks – hopefully that gives me a springboard to find some specific examples. I have a mythicist friend I clash horns with occasionally & it’s a good counter to ‘the church destroyed all the stuff they didn’t agree with’.

  14. On a related note of a historical Jesus in Paul: When it comes to 1 Thess. 2:13-16, Carrier claims that scholars have shown this passage to be an interpolation. Certainly, some scholars have argued this more than some other passages mythicists would like to dismiss, but at this point it would appear to be a distortion of scholarship. A recent paper surveyed the opinions on this passage, and all the arguments surrounding it, and finds that scholars have pretty largely moved towards authenticity and have discredited the arguments for its inteprolative status: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1476993X19860671

  15. Having studied this subject for a while now I am slowly coming around to the Mythicist position. If Jesus had been a real person then we would definitely have at least some evidence of earthly existence roughly around the time he is alleged to have lived and the immediate decades after. Also the history and writings of early Christianity would have looked very different. And I would actually argue that the stories around Jesus seem to stem from judaic sources. In fact the Jewish philosopher Philo, using Judaic scripture as his source, describes an angelic Jesus, son of god, agent of creation etc and it seems to be this celestial Jesus to whom Paul is referring in his writings and to whom the Ascension of Isaiah is referring. The writings of Mark seem drawn clearly from Judaic prophesies of the messiah. So I would actually argue that the Jesus character comes from Judaic origin.

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    1. “If Jesus had been a real person then we would definitely have at least some evidence of earthly existence roughly around the time he is alleged to have lived and the immediate decades after. “

      We do.

      “Also the history and writings of early Christianity would have looked very different. “

      How?

      “And I would actually argue that the stories around Jesus seem to stem from judaic sources.”

      Or they are about a Jew and originally told by Jews and so we would expect them to reflect Judaic sources.

      “In fact the Jewish philosopher Philo, using Judaic scripture as his source, describes an angelic Jesus, son of god, agent of creation”

      This is nonsense. Nowhere in Philo’s writings do we find any reference to any “angelic Jesus, son of god, agent of creation”. We do find references by him to a pre-existent Logos, but that is a concept that Jewish theologians had adopted from Platonic philosophy and which came to be associated with the idea of a heavenly pre-existence for the Messiah.

      ” it seems to be this celestial Jesus to whom Paul is referring in his writings and to whom the Ascension of Isaiah is referring.”

      No, Paul and the Ascension are referring to the idea that the Messiah, like the Torah and the Temple, would have a heavenly pre-existence before appearing on earth. This is entirely in keeping with a human Jesus.

      “The writings of Mark seem drawn clearly from Judaic prophesies of the messiah.”

      No, they reflect those prophecies because they are presenting Jesus as the Messiah. But gMark and the other gospels also have other elements in their narratives that don’t fit the prophecies very well at all or where they struggle to make the idea he was the Messiah fit the stories. This indicates that they were shoehorning a historical preacher into the prophetic templates.

      “So I would actually argue that the Jesus character comes from Judaic origin.”

      All your points above are flawed and are just rehearsals of bad Mythicist arguments that have been considered by scholars for over 100 years now and rejected because they don’t work. You need to read better material if you want to take an informed view on this question. It seems you have just accepted bad arguments by Carrier etc. and don’t know enough to see why they are bad. And you should know that drive-by Mythers who just come here to parrot Mythicist talking points get consigned to the spam folder pretty quickly. You’ve been warned.

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      1. As to the events described in the gospels there is zero corroboration from any contemporary source. Total silence in the first half of the first century, then the writings of Paul, who while he does say that Jesus was born, was crucified and rose again, does not describe an earthly ministry of Jesus, nor does he quote anyone who met Jesus in the flesh, all his knowledge, he says, comes from divine revelation. What you have for Jesus existence is hearsay evidence many years after the events described. The gospels are documents written by anonymous non-eye witnesses with no stated sources of events that have zero corroboration. And you wonder why people doubt that Jesus existed? I actually do think it is possible that some faith healer existed who inspired the gospel stories. The problem with this concept is that we have the effect of the early writings of Philo. Have you read Philo’s works? Have you read Carrier’s commentary on this or any of the Mythicist academic work? Philo wrote a treatise on the theology of Judaism. In this he clearly identifies Jesus, by name, and describes him as the son of god, agent of creation etc. This is clearly echoed in the beliefs of such docetic sects as the ascension of Isaiah.

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        1. This is is getting absurd.

          “As to the events described in the gospels there is zero corroboration from any contemporary source.”

          Where exactly would we expect to find corroboration of some minor events around an obscure preacher in the backwater end of an unimportant province? We have “zero corroboration from any contemporary source” for the events surrounding any of the other Jewish preachers, prophets or Messianic claimants in this period, so why would we expect any for this one? Even when those events are far more significant than anything even the gospels claim for Jesus – e.g. the dispatching of units of troops to deal with the thousands of followers of Theudas or the Egyptian Prophet – we have no contemporary attestation. So why would a peasant preaching to some other peasants and then getting crucified be mentioned at the time? And by who? This whole argument is utterly incoherent.

          “Paul, who while he does say that Jesus was born, was crucified and rose again, does not describe an earthly ministry of Jesus, nor does he quote anyone who met Jesus in the flesh, all his knowledge, he says, comes from divine revelation.”

          This is a nonsense claim. Nowhere does Paul say all his knowledge of Jesus comes from revelation. He quite clearly says that his specific teaching that Gentiles did not have to become Jews to be saved came from Jesus. Nothing else. You clearly don’t know the texts. And Paul was writing letters addressing particular theological issues, not writing an account of Jesus’ ministry. I wrote an email to my brother where I mentioned our father, but I didn’t give an account of his life. Paul didn’t go back over Jesus’ career in each of his letters for the same reason.

          “What you have for Jesus existence is hearsay evidence many years after the events described. “

          Which is all we have for any analogous Jewish preacher, prophet or Messianic claimant of the time. So? Welcome to ancient history – this is normal.

          “Have you read Philo’s works? “

          Several of them, yes. I suspect you haven’t. If you had, you’d know the claim that he makes some mention of an ” angelic Jesus, son of god, agent of creation” is total and complete garbage.

          “he clearly identifies Jesus, by name, and describes him as the son of god, agent of creation etc.”

          He does not. You are wrong. He makes no mention of any Jesus who is a son of god etc. You are simply accepting an erroneous claim by Carrier and because you have no actual knowledge of what Philo says you don’t realise that you’ve been fooled. Philo does not mention any Jesus. You are wrong.

          “Have you read Carrier’s commentary on this or any of the Mythicist academic work?”

          You’ve blundered in here to comment on a detailed article that goes over several arguments by Carrier and other Mythicists and then ask me this stupid question. That article is, in turn the sixth in a series that deals in great detail with that so-called “Mythicist academic work”, especially that of Carrier. And yes, I know the dumb argument that Carrier makes about Philo. Even his fellow Mythicists think it’s a stinker. You just don’t know the texts well enough to understand why. Your claims about what Philo says are wrong. Dead wrong. Don’t believe me? Okay – try this: go to the works of Philo, find where he “clearly identifies Jesus, by name, and describes him as the son of god, agent of creation etc.” and quote him for us. Good luck.

          If you reply without (a) producing that quote where he “clearly identifies Jesus, by name” or (b) admit you were wrong about this and don’t know what you’re talking about, you will go straight to the spam file.

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          1. We all know Carrier’s terrible argument about what Philo says. Your problem is that the passage in question does NOT mention any “Jesus”. This is why I challenged you to quote any mention of a “Jesus” as “as the son of god, agent of creation”, because I know no such quote exists. And that’s why you failed. Carrier has read something into the text that is simply not there. And because you simply have no idea about this stuff and have never even read the relevant texts, you just let Carrier fool you. You’ve wasted enough of our time – go away.

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        2. According to you “method” people like Diogenes of Sinope were mythical too. Worse – during Antiquity hardly anybody lived in the Mediterranean.

          “I actually do think it is possible that some faith healer existed who inspired the gospel stories. ”
          Well, silly, if such a guy existed he very likely had a name. Now what name could that have been? …… hmmmm ….. I see two possibilities. The first one is Jesus.
          The second one it it something else than Jesus. Now why would the authors of the Gospels rename that guy? What’s more – what evidence do you have he was renamed?
          Oh, now I get it. Evidence only matters when it supports your predetermined conclusions.
          But hey, you have done us a favour. You accurately demonstrated that JM is about as crappy as creationism.

          1. The comparison of Mythicism to creationism is apt. Both movements have a core of thought leaders, many of whom have real credentials, and some familiarity with the primary evidence, but hold a weird take on it. Around these there is a body of followers who accept what the leaders tell them, mostly because it flatters prejudices they already hold. Said followers then tend to show up in fora confidently spouting nonsense as if it settled the question in their favour (and are generally resistant to correction).

            Nate here sounds like any number of breathless creationists on talk.origins. Whether it’s Philo or transitional fossils, it all sounds the same.

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          2. @Steve Watson:
            Jesus Mythicists and Creationists have both selectively reject accepted academic method (the historical method for Jesus Mythicists and the scientific method for creationists) when its delivered a conclusion they didn’t like and have selectively come up with their own methods to lead to the conclusions they’re seeking.

          3. @Daniel: “have selectively come up with their own methods”
            I think this quite generous; perhaps you call “arguing for a predetermined conclusion” also a method? If I’m right (and I think I am) that that’s the core of both JM and creacrap it’s unsurprising that “their own methods” have so much in common, don’t you think?
            Of course there are differences as well; the most important and obvious one being that JMs don’t accept supernatural explanations. This holds for all pseudo- and quacktheories. However if we want to understand how quacks and pseudos think (and it seems to me that that is an important aspect of this blog) we should look at the similarities. Given the nonsense related to climate change, to 5G and to COVID-19 the relevance seems very clear.
            This is also why I have no use for the distinction the historical method and the scientific method. Of course within domain-specific methods in history and biology differ enormously. When digging up a fossil hermeneutics is totally useless. However on the intermediate level of abstraction they both can use statistics and Testis Unus, Testis Nullus. What really matters though for comparing and evaluating pseudo- and quackscience is the most general level, which is studied by philosophy of science. Here I maintain that the relation between theory-building and observation in history is about the same as in biology. That again justifies historical research calling a branch of science.
            Any thoughts?

        3. Philo mentions a Logos. Which often is translated as “word.” In the Bible, later, Jesus and God are later referred to, apparently, as the Logos, or “Word.”

          So it might seem there is at least SOME overlap?

          1. That the concept of the “logos” in Philo’s theology is connected to the “Logos” in early Christology is quite clear and accepted by all scholars. But Carrier uses a contorted argument that says (i) Philo talks about a angelic and exalted angelic Logos figure via a exegetical reference to Zech 6:11-12 (true), (ii) Zech 6:11 is referring to a priest called Joshua (possibly), (iii) so Philo is saying this Logos/Messiah was called Jesus (a form of Joshua) (utter nonsense). This argument doesn’t work because Jewish exegesis takes a passage like Zech 6:11 out of its context and gives it a new meaning. Carrier’s claim requires us to read in an element from the original context (the name Joshua) into what Philo says, even though Philo makes no mention of this element. This reading of Philo is nonsense.

            There are other problems with it as well, such as whether the figure in Zechariah that Philo refers to is actually the high priest Joshua or another person. Then there is the fact we are meant to believe there was a pre-Christian Jewish belief in a heavenly angelic Logos figure called Jesus, but this is mentioned absolutely nowhere in any Jewish literature or even anywhere else in Philo’s extensive works, expect in this highly oblique reference that doesn’t even mention the names “Joshua” or “Jesus”. And we are meant to believe that in the hundreds of years of people combing Philo for elements that shed light on CHristianity, the unemployed blogger Richard Carrier is the first genius in the world to notice this remarkable thing. The whole argument is total stinker.

    2. “we would definitely have at least some evidence of earthly existence”
      We do have, silly. It’s called “sources”.

      “Also the history and writings of early Christianity would have looked very different.”
      For which there is exactly zero ….. evidence.

      “the stories around Jesus seem to stem from judaic sources.”
      BWAHAHAHAHA! Jesus was judaic.

  16. Nate, if you have to ask if Tim has read Carrier or Philo, you OBVIOUSLY have only skimmed this page. Get that weak stuff out of here. Every point you raise has been addressed multiple times on HFA articles and in comment threads. Go read more and come back later.

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  17. I was intrigued by the reference to Philo that Carrier seems to rely on so much. I looked the passage in the NRSV where it reads “He is a man whose name is Branch”. In the context of Zechariah this seems to refer to Joshua the high priest, a historical contemporary of the prophet. (Joshua is the Hebraic form the the Greek Ἰησοῦς.) I then looked it up in the Septuagint (LXX) – the first Greek translation of the OT. (The translation of the Torah goes back to early Ptolemaic times.) For the past four years I have been using it when I say the office( Prayers). It is also the OT that the first Christians used and Greek speaking Jews of the Diaspora. It contains evident mistranslations of the original Hebrew and can be used as a witness to different textual traditions. (The most famous example is the halmah/πάρθενος version of Isaiah 7 v. 14 and Matthew 1 v. 23.) The LXX of Zechariah 6 v.12 runs “ἰδοὺ ἄνθρωπος ᾧ ὄνομα ἀνατολή·” Behold a man whose name is Rising. In his work “de confusione linguarum” 62 ,Philo refers to this passage, enigmatically introducing it as “a disciple of Moses says”. This is a very odd way of introducing Zechariah, who can hardly be described as a disciple of Moses, and suggests that Philo is quoting from memory.
    Whether Philo was aware of the Hebrew text, is open to speculation , probably not. It might also suggest that in this context Philo was unaware of its historical content in the book of Zechariah. Philo argues, in a particularly Jewish way – midrash – that Ἀνατόλη suggests a non-corporeal being whom he identifies as the “Incorporeal Son,” the Logos who is an expression of God himself. (Philo’s interest in Platonic philosophy is evident in the use of the word Λόγος.) Whether Philo’s speculations on this figure had any influence on the Johannine prologue is open to conjecture; I would rather suspect the influence of Wisdom literature from Proverbs 8 onwards. The gospel of John shows no other trace of Philo’s thought or theology. Philo makes no mention of the historical Joshua, the high priest, at this point, and it seems rather that he is using the text in its Greek form as a proof for his Logos theology. This passage has no connection at all with the historical or divine Jesus, and to argue otherwise is to ignore the context of Philo’s quotation, his thought processes and the nature of the LXX translation of the Hebrew at this point – why Branch was translated as “ἀνατολή” is a problem for which there may be no satisfactory solution.

    1. “In his work “de confusione linguarum” 62 ,Philo refers to this passage, enigmatically introducing it as “a disciple of Moses says”. This is a very odd way of introducing Zechariah, who can hardly be described as a disciple of Moses, and suggests that Philo is quoting from memory.”

      I had previously thought this as well, but I’ve since learned that “disciple of Moses” or “companion of Moses” is one of a number of euphemisms Philo uses for the prophets. Others include “hierophant”, “exhibitor of sacred things”, “oracular man” and “a companion of the prophetic choir”.

  18. I should have prefaced my earlier remarks by the disclaimer that I am no Philonic scholar. Certainly the phrase, a disciple of Moses, testifies to the centrality of Moses, both as historical figure but also as the presumed author of the Pentateuch, in the work of Philo. (John Lierman in a work of 2004) points out that Philo designates Jews generally as pupils of Moses. Tim is right to draw attention to the euphemisms for prophets in Philo’s works. Philo prefaces his quotation of Zechariah 6 v. 12 with the phrase; ἤκουσα μέντοι καὶ τῶν Μωυσέως ἑταίρων τινὸς ἀποφθεγξαμένου τοιόνδε λόγιον· I have heard of one of the companions of Moses saying, and then follows the quotation. A similar phrase is used in Philo’s de somniis 2 245 of a verse (10) from Psalm 64(LXX) and earlier in the de confusione 39 we find τῶν Μωσυέως γνωρίμων τις ἐν ὕμνοις – one of the acquaintances or pupils of Moses in the hymns (i.e. psalms) and then follows a reference to Psalm 30 v. 19. Philo seems to be aware of the common view of Davidic authorship of the psalms (Plant. 9 39) so it is odd to find them attributed to a companion, friend etc of Moses. Of non-Pentateuchal works cited by Philo only one is named by author – a reference to Jeremiah. Many of the relatively few quotations of non-Pentateuchal works in Philo seems to employ this form; friend or pupils (or equivalent synonyms) of Moses and then the quotation. Naomi Cohen (Philo’s Scriptures: Citations from the Prophets and Writings: Evidence for a Haftarah Cycle in Second Temple Judaism) sought to argue that these friends of Moses, rather than the actual authors such as the psalmist or Zechariah, were a group of Alexandrian Jews who favoured an allegorical interpretation of biblical texts, and that at one stage Philo was part of their group and then withdrew. This view has not found widespread support, but some scholars argue that she is right to point out the use of such phrases, even if their significance is open to debate. It is possible that Philo, by using such phrases, was not primarily concerned with their original context; he may have been quoting from memory. Thus it is unlikely that the original sitz-im-leben of the Zechariah verse was uppermost in Philo’s mind, with its reference to Joshua, the high-priest. Rather he was allegorising it to support his belief in the incorporeal Λόγος, a crucial aspect of Philonic theology, and one without any reference to Jesus of Nazareth.

  19. One thing I can’t help but feel about Earl Doherty’s and Richard Carrier’s ideas is that they both seem to forget that Judaism is a still existent and active religion/creed and one which has taken pains to maintain records of its own history and analyse itself and how its evolved over the millenniums. It’s not some belief system that’s died-out and which we have had to piece together information from.
    What is the ultra-slim likelihood that the Jews themselves somehow lost awareness of Doherty’s ideas of what Jewish scriptures and messianic prophesies really were? Or the ultra-slim likelihood that the Jews themselves somehow lost awareness of Richard Carrier’s cosmic sperm bank?

    1. “Or the ultra-slim likelihood that the Jews themselves somehow lost awareness of Richard Carrier’s cosmic sperm bank?”

      Modern Rabbinical Judaism is the strand that survived the end of Second Temple Judaism and the chaotic period of the First and Second Jewish Wars. As such, it is one strand of what had been a much more varied and diverse religious tradition prior to those cataclysms (Christianity could be argued to be another). This means there is quite a bit from Second Temple Judaism which is only known to us from snippets and fragments but which is not acknowledged by modern Jewish traditions as being properly “Jewish”.

      So the issue is not so much the total silence of later Jewish traditions on this bizarre idea, but its complete absence in any of the material we do have from and about Second Temple Judaism. There is simply no trace of this idea and no-one even thought of it before Carrier created it as an ad hoc way to prop up his creaking and cumbersome thesis.

      1. I’m aware of the destruction of the 1st and 3rd Jewish wars and how Rabbinical Judaism is a result of losing the great temple.
        But this whole “messiah from a Cosmic sperm bank” thing that Carrier theorises would’ve been at the very least; a major strain of belief (if not the actual mainstream belief). And even if Judaism moved-on from it; it seems incredible that this would be something that Rabbi’s etc. would not be kept aware of.

  20. Just an observation I made that I wanted to add here, that further suggests Paul’s familiarity with Jesus’ teachings. You note, for example, Paul is aware of Jesus’ teachings on divorce. Also, consider this. In Mark 10:44, Jesus says that his disciples must be “slaves of all”, and they must be the one to serve others. In 2 Cor. 4:5, Paul, though he is free, tells that Corinthians that he is in fact a slave to them “for Jesus’ sake”. It seems to me that Paul must be aware of Jesus’ teaching on this matter, which so closely and specifically parallels what the Gospel says, and thus this is another example of Paul being familiar with one of the teachings of Jesus.

    1. Of course, Mythicists tend to “explain” these parallels in the opposite direction, arguing gMark was written with one eye on Paul’s epistles.

  21. Since the estimable Dr. Carrier (whose Opus, btw, passed the rigorous review of not one, but TWO anonymous peers
    and, ostensibly, some transients at Sheffield) finally recognized his weighty tome was waaay too wordy and has excised nearly 500 pages in hopes Doctors will stop prescribing it to insomniacs, do you anticipate writing a review of Jesus from Outer Space?

    Tim…..? Tim……? Wake up Tim!

    1. I don’t think I’ll bother. The arguments are the same stuff that he put in his clunker of a monograph and I deal with them in my Jesus Mythicism series.

  22. I have a friend that has noted some interesting things. Her words: “ afaik we don’t know who wrote paul’s letters, we don’t know if it was paul paul or pauls epistles.” I’ll let you do the rest.

      1. To clarify, she was going on about how we can’t *really* know if Paul’s letters were *really* written by him along with the claim that there were several pseudo-Jesus’.

        1. I’m not sure how I can respond to those claims based on such a bald summary. But if Paul didn’t write any of the letters attributed to him, why was anyone attributing letters to him at all? If there were no genuine Pauline letters, how did the concept of a Pauline letter having authority arise in the first place? These people just don’t think things through.

  23. Sorry if this comment is convoluted, but I have two questions:

    1) The text of Galatians 1:5-6 reads in full “ 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the gentiles for the sake of his name, 6 including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.” Is Paul including the audience in verse six in the group of “Gentiles” or is he including them among “we who have received grace and apostleship”? I think this is relevant to the issue of wether the singular of verse 1 agrees with the plural of verse 5, even though I don’t think disagreement there is a very strong argument against authenticity anyhow.

    2) I found your paragraph introducing John C. O’Neill (“ At least in this third argument… what had previously been subjective speculation”) to be rather confusing. Are you saying that O’Neill and the other scholars mentioned agreed with Detering that the apparent redundancy in verses 6 and 7 is weird (as per the Van Manen quote), or are you just transitioning to the discussion of the textual evidence without ” further comment on Detering’s third argument? If it’s the latter, what is your view on the argument that verses 6 and 7 are suspiciously redundant?

    1. “Is Paul including the audience in verse six in the group of “Gentiles” or is he including them among “we who have received grace and apostleship”?”

      The latter. ἐλάβομεν (we [who] have received) is plural.

      “Are you saying that O’Neill and the other scholars mentioned agreed with Detering that the apparent redundancy in verses 6 and 7 is weird”

      No. I’m saying O’Neill and a few others also argued that most of 1:1-7 is not authentic, though on other grounds to Detering.

      1. “The latter. ἐλάβομεν (we [who] have received) is plural.”

        You may be correct, but take David Bentley Hart’s translation, for example:

        “5 through whom we have received grace and, for his name’s sake, a mission for consent to faith among all the gentiles, 6 among whom you too are included, you who are called to be Jesus the Anointed’s own;”

        I don’t know a lick of koine, so maybe I’m missing something, but the inclusion of the audience in “all the gentiles” strikes me as a more natural reading. If this is the case, perhaps the “we” in verse 5 is Paul including his fellow travelers like Tertius, Timothy, etc.

        If you don’t mind my asking, how do block quotes work in these comments?

        1. The “we” includes the Jesus Sect community in Rome who he is addressing and including in the mission to the gentiles. I find DBH’s translation a bit convoluted here and it differs from most translations.

          I think the blockquote thing is only something I can do via the site admin’s interface.

  24. Another (quicker) question: have you read Detering’s arguments on Augustine’s Confessions? If so, do you find any of them plausible?

  25. I think there’s a typo in the section about codex Boernerianus: Romans 14:24-36 is listed as absent from the manuscript; Romans 14 ends at verse 23 (at least in the NRSV).

    1. True. I cant’ find the list of lacunae I was working from there and most references to Codex Boernerianus don’t mention one in Romans 14, so I think I’ll just remove that reference. Thanks.

    1. NO. My comments section has been bombarded lately with requests for my to refute random pieces of online Mythicism. I’ve blocked one of the main offenders, who seems to have created several accounts to get around this, but I’m getting tired of these requests. So (i) comments are for discussion of the article above them, nothing else. (ii) I don’t have time to debunk or refute every expression of Mythicism people find on the internet. That’s what my Jesus Mythciism series is for. So please STOP posting these random requests. Future ones will be trash-canned and repeat offenders will be banned.

    1. I pay no attention to the Gormless Engineer. He simply parrots whatever his master Carrier tells him. The guy has never had an original thought flicker across his brain.

      1. I think it’s very telling that Godless Engineer (and some of your other detractors) critiques your presentations in podcasts but generally ignores the clarifications and details provided in your articles

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