Jesus Mythicism 5: The Nazareth “Myth”

Jesus Mythicism 5: The Nazareth “Myth”

Not only is the idea that Jesus came from Nazareth a common element in all four canonical gospels, it also seems to have been an awkward fact that did not fit well with the gospel writers’ claim he was the Messiah. This indicates it is likely his origin in this small village was a historical fact. Jesus Mythicists often deal with this by removing Nazareth from the story and some even claim all the archaeologists are wrong and Nazareth did not even exist.

“Can anything good come from Nazareth?”

If there is anything most people would say they know about Jesus it is the fact he came from Nazareth. After all, after “Jesus Christ” he is most commonly referred to as “Jesus of Nazareth” and his home town of Nazareth features in popular narratives about him: for example, in the well known Christmas stories. Nazareth also features as his place of origin in all four of the canonical gospels and appears in a significant story of his return to his home town in the three Synoptics.

So why do many Jesus Mythicists argue that Nazareth is an addition to the Jesus stories or even that no such place existed? This is because the Nazareth element is awkward for the gospel writers in ways that strongly indicate it was a historical element that they had to include, despite that awkwardness. For Mythicists, elements which seem to indicate historicity cannot be allowed to stand, so they have to find ways to make this one go away. Their attempts to do so are, as ever, convoluted, contrived, based on carefully selected snippets of scholarship and a lot of suppositions and – in the most extreme cases – crackpot pseudo archaeology and crazed conspiracy theories.

The gospel depictions of Jesus’ origin in Nazareth contain a number of oddities. The opening chapter of the last and latest gospel – gJohn – depicts Philip telling Nathanael “‘We have found him about whom Moses in the law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus son of Joseph from Nazareth'” (John 1:45), to which Nathanael replies dismissively “‘Can anything good come out of Nazareth?'”, with the strong implication the answer should be “No”. The same gospel has another expression of scepticism at the idea of a Galilean Messiah from Nazareth:

When they heard these words, some in the crowd said, “This is really the prophet.” Others said, “This is the Messiah.” But some asked, “Surely the Messiah does not come from Galilee, does he? Has not the scripture said that the Messiah is descended from David and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David lived?” So there was a division in the crowd because of him.

(John 7: 40-43)

gJohn does not present a defence of Jesus’ messiahship in the face of this objection – possibly because it writer did not consider Jesus’ town of origin significant, or because he assumed his readers were already aware of the traditions that did have Jesus born in Bethlehem.

We can see those traditions in the earlier gospels of gMatt and gLuke, though here the oddities multiply. Both stories have Jesus being born in Bethlehem. And both have him growing up and living in Nazareth before the beginning of his preaching career. But the way they achieve this differs and the stories they tell to do so are contradictory, full of historical problems and are mutually exclusive.

The “scripture” referred to in John 7:42 is Micah 5:2:

But you, O Bethlehem of Ephrathah, who are one of the little clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.

Bethlehem was the home town of Jesse and his son David and it was where David was anointed king by Samuel (1Samuel 16:1-13), so it seems some came to see this text as a prophecy about the town from which the Messiah would come. This is why gMatt depicts Jesus’ parents as living in Bethlehem and Jesus being born there (Matt 2:1). This gospel then has Herod threaten to kill the newborn Jesus and his family escape to Egypt until Herod’s death, eventually returning and settling, not in Bethlehem in Judea, but in Nazareth in Galilee (Matt 2:19-23).

But there are elements in this story which make it historically dubious. The clear parallels between Jesus and Moses (a tyrant trying to kill a child, the child escaping, a return from Egypt) make those elements likely to be symbolic, presenting Jesus as a second Moses. The excuse given for settling in Nazareth after Herod’s death – the fact that his son Archelaus was ruling Judea – makes little sense given that another of his sons, Antipas, was also ruling Galilee. And the claim that they settled in Nazareth “so that what had been spoken through the prophets might be fulfilled, ‘He will be called a Nazorean.'” (Matt 2:23) is problematic because no such prophecy can be found in any scriptures of the time and the writer of gMatt, unusually, does not actually specify which “prophets” (plural) supposedly said this.

The problems multiply when we turn to the gLuke account of Jesus’ birth and find a very different story. Here Jesus’ family live in Nazareth to begin with. They then journey to Bethlehem to take part in the census of Quirinius because Joseph is a descendant of King David (Luke 2:1-7) and then return to Nazareth where Jesus grows up. There are historical problems with this story also. Despite the best efforts of Christian apologists, there is no way to reconcile some kind of decree “from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered” (Luke 2:1) with anything historical. It certainly cannot be reconciled with “the first registration …. taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria” (Luke 2:2), given this was a census of Judea only, done when the Romans deposed Archelaus and took administrative control of the region directly. Finally, the Romans had no interest in where your distant ancestors lived one thousand years earlier, so the idea that Joseph would be required to take part in this census because of some ancient ancestral connection to Bethlehem is highly dubious.

Most importantly, however, these two stories not only contain internal problems but also (again, despite the strenuous and ingenious efforts of apologists) cannot be made to reconcile with each other. As mentioned, the census in gLuke is specified to be that of Publius Sulpicius Quirinius which was “the first” because Quirinius was taking control of Judea for the first time on the deposition of the tetrarch Archelaus in 6 AD (see Josephus, Ant., XVIII.1). But the gMatt narrative has Herod the Great as a key character and Herod died in 4 BC. So the two gospel narratives not only tell two different stories, but they also set them a whole decade apart.

Again, Christian apologists strive mightily to resolve that contradiction using what Geza Vermes describes wryly as “exegetical acrobatics”, but most critical scholars accept that neither story is historical in its details and both are trying to achieve two similar things in different ways. Firstly, both are emphasising Jesus’ remarkable status as the Messiah in various ways, not least of which is the depiction of his birth in Bethlehem in accordance with Micah 5:2. Secondly, both stories “explain” how this Messiah could be born in the (appropriate) Judean town of Bethlehem despite growing up in the (inappropriate) Galilean village of Nazareth.

So both stories are working hard to counter the objection we find reflected in John 7:42 – “he may have come from Nazareth” they are saying, “but he was born in Bethlehem as a true Messiah”. This makes sense if, in fact, Jesus was from Nazareth and was well known to be so. That would mean that Nazareth would be an awkward and inconvenient fact, giving a strong incentive for “explanations” to arise in the early Jesus traditions to get around the John 7:42 objection.

So while this makes sense if there was a historical Jesus who was from Nazareth, it poses a problem for Mythicists. If he was not historical, why is the Nazareth element in the story at all? It serves no theological or exegetical purpose: on the contrary, it gets in the way of the claim he was born as the Messiah because he is from the “wrong” place. So why do the traditions not simply have him as “Jesus of Bethlehem” and avoid the whole issue? Why is “Nazareth” in there at all?

This question forced no less a New Atheist luminary than Christopher Hitchens to reluctantly accept that “there may have been a figure of some kind of deluded rabbi” as the kernel of the Jesus stories. Hitchens noted “the fakery of the story” in the accounts of Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem and concluded “the fakery itself proves something”, asking “why not have him born in Bethlehem right there, and leave out the Nazarene business?” (see this video, with his comments beginning around the 2.47 mins mark). Hitchens garbles some of the details, but nails the essence of the argument.

“Is this not the Carpenter?”

And we do not find “the Nazarene business” only in the infancy narratives of gMatt and gLuke. In Luke 4:16-30 we find a strange story where Jesus comes “to Nazareth, where he had been brought up” and preaches in the synagogue there, expounding on a version of Isaiah 61:1-3. He declares “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” (v. 21) The assembled residents are amazed at this announcement, asking each other “Is this not Joseph’s son?” (v. 22). Then Jesus notes that “no prophet is accepted in the prophet’s hometown” (v. 24) and effectively refuses to perform any miracles there like the ones he had performed earlier in Capernaum (v. 23). So the people there become angry and lead him to “the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they might hurl him off the cliff ” (v. 29), but we are told he “passed through the midst of them and went on his way.” (v. 30)

This is an expansion and embellishment of the briefer story found in gMark:

He left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him. On the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astounded. They said, “Where did this man get all this? What is this wisdom that has been given to him? What deeds of power are being done by his hands! Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offence at him. Then Jesus said to them, “Prophets are not without honour, except in their hometown, and among their own kin, and in their own house.” And he could do no deed of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them. And he was amazed at their unbelief.

(Mark 6:1-5)

We also find an even shorter version of this story in Matthew 13:54-58, which follows the general outline of its Marcan source above, though rather than saying “he could do no deed of power there” the Matthean version says “he did not do many deeds of power there” (v. 58), making this sound more like a choice than an inability.

What do we make of these stories of Jesus being rejected in his own πατρίδα (hometown, country, fatherland)? The first thing to notice is that the later Matthean and Lucan versions work to soften the effect of the “unbelief” of the Nazarenes. In gMark he “could do no deed of power there” except some minor healings, whereas in gMatt he does not do “many” major miracles, which implies he chose to do some. While in gLuke we get a dialogue where Jesus tells the people there that they may have heard of him doing miracles in Capernaum but that he would do none in Nazareth, saying:

“[T]here were many widows in Israel in the time of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a severe famine over all the land; yet Elijah was sent to none of them except to a widow at Zarephath in Sidon. There were also many lepers in Israel in the time of the prophet Elisha, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian.”

(Luke 4:25-27)

So here it is not that Jesus cannot perform great miracles (gMark) or simply chooses not to (gMatt), he overtly refuses to do so and tells the Nazarenes why in terms that emphasises his self-proclaimed status as a prophet and the fulfilment of prophecy. This is what angers the people there and leads them to not just reject him but attack him – an element not found in the other two versions.

This means we go from a story in gMark where Jesus goes to his “home country”, is met with “unbelief”, and could not perform major miracles there to one in gLuke where he makes a virtue of their scepticism and, in refusing to perform any miracles at all, emphasises his prophet status.

Again, there is a possible historical kernel in the early Marcan story – a memory of an actual incident where Jesus meets with some acclaim in Capernaum and so goes back to Nazareth where his reception from those who know him and his family is far more sceptical. The later versions work to soften this slightly awkward story, with gLuke turning his sceptical rejection into something triumphant.

That Jesus came from Nazareth is not only found in all four canonical gospels, it is reflected in later traditions as well. Acts 24:5 depicts Paul being described to the Roman procurator Antonius Felix as “a leader of the Nazarenes”. Writing in the early fourth century Eusebius notes in his catalogue of Biblical place names:

Nazareth: – From which the Christ is called the Nazarene and we, who are now called Christians, were of old called Nazarenes.

(Onomasticon, 13824-140.2)

Similarly Tertullian emphasises Jesus’ origin in Nazareth and says “for this reason the Jews call us ‘Nazarenes'” (Ad. Mar. IV.8) and we find similar comments on the origin of this name for Christians in Origen and Jerome. It may have seemed to these Greek and Latin speakers that it was “the Jews” who gave Christians this name, but evidence suggests that while forms of the Greek name Χριστιανοί (Christians) dominated in the western world, among Semitic speakers the name for the sect was derived from Nazareth. So we find Syriac Christians referring to themselves as Nasraye, Thomasine Christians in India calling themselves Nasrani and the Arabic form Naṣara. Both the Greek-derived “Christians” and the Semitic forms of “Nazarenes” seem to be terms originally given to Christians by others and later adopted by the adherents of the sect themselves.

Finally, we have some fragmentary indicators that the association between Jesus and his home town continued to be remembered long after his death. Eusebius quotes a lost work from the late second century Christian writer Sextus Julius Africanus, who records that Jesus’ family still lived in the area much later. Writing about the genealogy of Jesus, Africanus says:

“A few of the careful, however, having obtained private records of their own, either by remembering the names or by getting them in some other way from the registers, pride themselves on preserving the memory of their noble extraction. Among these are those already mentioned, called Desposyni, on account of their connection with the family of the Saviour. Coming from Nazara and Cochaba, villages of Judea, into other parts of the world, they drew the aforesaid genealogy from memory and from the book of daily records as faithfully as possible.”

(Quoted in Ecc.Hist. IV.7.14)

So to most people Jesus’ origin in Nazareth would seem to be firmly established, as far as we can establish anything about such a figure given the nature of our sources. The early traditions emphasise his origin there and preserve memories of his family coming from there. Others use the name of Jesus’ place of origin as an early designation for his sect. And the gospels preserve stories about his origin these that are in several ways awkward for them and have to be moderated or corrected to fit their claims about him. So how can Mythicists claim the whole Nazareth element is a later accretion and not a historical element at all?

Jesus of … Capernaum?

The main way Mythicists get rid of Nazareth as a likely historical element is by arguing that its use as a gentilic for Jesus – i.e. a part of his name indicating where he came from – was a later development that evolved out of an earlier title that had nothing to do with a placename. So Mythicism apologist Dr Richard Carrier PhD claims:

[T]he accumulated evidence suggests ‘Nazareth’ as the town Jesus originated from was a late eponymous inference from what was originally the completely unrelated title of ‘Nazorian’, having something to do with what Jesus was, not where he was from.

(On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason to Doubt, p. 400)

Here Carrier cites himself, pointing to a longer analysis of the issue in his earlier work Proving History (pp. 145-48). There he notes a range of possible alternative origins of the title “Nazarene” suggested by a few scholars. These include Eric Laupont, who argues that the title was originally a name for the Christian movement derived from Isaiah 11:1 (“A shoot shall come out from the stump of Jesse, and a branch (Hebrew – neser) shall grow out of his roots”). This name for the sect was then, somehow, retroactively turned into Jesus’ home town – see Laupont, “Tacitus’ Fragment 2: The Anti-Roman Movement of the Christiani and the Nazoreans,” Vigiliae Christianae 54, no. 3, (2000): 233–47). But Carrier also cites J.S. Kennard who presents another suggestion; that the name is derived from the “Nazarites” – the “separated” or “consecrated ones” described in Numbers 6 who take a vow dedicating themselves to God. So Kennard argues that John the Baptist’s followers called themselves something like “the consecrated” from the Hebrew verb nazar (to consecrate) and Jesus had this title because he was a follower of John. The writer of gMark, Kennard argues, had to therefore find a way to distance Jesus from the Baptist’s “Nazorean” followers and find another meaning for Jesus’ title and settled on the idea that Jesus was from Nazareth – see J. S. Kennard, “Was Capernaum the Home of Jesus?”, Journal of Biblical Literature, 65, no. 2 (June 1946): 131–41.

Not fully content with these two alternatives, Carrier adds a third, this time from amateur writer René Salm (more on him below), who cites the very late (probably third century) Gnostic text The Gospel of Philip to argue the title originally meant “Truth”. Carrier declares that “I do not agree with all the theories of either Salm, Kennard, or Laupot”, which makes sense, given they are all mutually exclusive. But he decides, despite this, that “their arguments on this point are correct”. So apparently it does not matter which of these very different ideas is correct in detail, because it seems the fact that these and other “possibilities” merely exist is enough to convince Carrier that the word was originally a title and not a place name. It seems none of them has to actually be fully convincing for Carrier – the fact that the three of them all indicate the conclusion he likes (in totally contradictory ways) is somehow enough. Carrier’s work is full of breezy but incoherent arguments like this.

Nazareth is made easier to remove from the many gospel references to it if, as Kennard and others have argued, you decide it is all derived from gMark. If the writer of that text came up with the whole idea that this “Nazarene” title meant “from Nazareth” and the other gospels simply repeated and expanded this idea, we have a single point of origin for the whole concept. Some go further than Kennard and argue that not even gMark depicted Jesus as coming from Nazareth and that the only passage that says this – Mark 1:9 (“[i]n those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee”) is somehow an interpolation. Elsewhere gMark only refers to Jesus using a title – e.g. “Nazarene” in Mark 1:24 – which, according to this line of reasoning, is not a reference to this town at all, as per the various arguments above. The episode where he visits his “home town/home country” in Mark 6:1-5 does not actually name the town in the original Marcan version. Furthermore, as Kennard and a few earlier scholars argue, the Marcan narrative seems to depict Jesus’ home as being Capernaum, not Nazareth at all.

Of course, Kennard was no Mythicist, makes several arguments in his works that assumes a historical Jesus much as the gospels describe him and in his paper on Capernaum as Jesus’ home town even makes a wry aside about “the Christ-myth school” (p. 132), but Mythicism is substantially cobbled together out of arguments by scholars who fully accept a historical Jesus. So Mythicists press into service some of Kennard’s arguments that Jesus actually came from Capernaum. He notes Capernaum is referred to as “his own city” (Matt 9:1) and claims Matt 17:24 means Jesus paid a poll tax there. He notes that “the house” in Mark 2:1 and 9:33 is in Capernaum and says that there is evidence the sermon he preached in his “home town” was actually in Capernaum, not Nazareth. Mythicists who use these arguments place great emphasis on Mark 2:1:

When he returned to Capernaum after some days, it was reported that he was at home.

(my emphasis)

So, it is argued, originally there was no association of Jesus with Nazareth, this was invented out of an earlier title that had nothing to do with his home town and his home town was originally depicted as being Capernaum, with Nazareth as a later accretion. But there are many, many problems with this tangled line of reasoning.

To begin with, the claim that the whole idea that Jesus came from Nazareth derives from gMark – or, more specifically, from the single explicit reference to Jesus coming “from Nazareth of Galilee” in Mark 1:9 – depends on none of the references to Jesus being from Nazareth in the other three gospels being independent of gMark. Pretty much all critical scholars acknowledge that the three synoptic gospels are interdependent, with most accepting gMark as the earliest of the three and the one the other two used as their major source. But most scholars accept the “Two Source Hypothesis” which notes material independent of gMark in the other two synoptics (the Q, L and M material). Then there is the whole of gJohn, which could be very lightly influenced by gMark, written by someone who perhaps knew gMark (or one or more synoptic gospels) or was perhaps wholly independent of it. Mythicists, of course, tend to think all of the other three gospels are wholly derived from gMark, but there are many reasons not to think so. If there are independent elements in the other three gospels that contain references to Jesus being from Nazareth and which are not derived from gMark – and most scholars believe there are, in gJohn at least – then the idea this concept is wholly derived from one reference in gMark founders.

The hypothesis that the reference to Jesus coming from Nazareth in Mark 1:9 is actually based on an interpolated verse has problems as well. There are no manuscript variants which do not contain this verse or which contain some other version of it that does not mention Jesus coming from Nazareth. This means the idea that Mark 1:9 is a later interpolation to bring gMark into line with the other synoptics depicting Jesus as being from Nazareth has no textual basis and so is tenuous to begin with. Many of those who argue for the interpolation of Mark 1:9 fall back on noting the “anarthrous use” of the name “Jesus” (Ἰησοῦς) in this text: i.e it is used without an article. This makes it highly distinctive in gMark, given that in the 82 uses of the name “Jesus” in that gospel, only eight are anarthrous and there are grammatical or textual reasons for the other seven instances. However, there are alternatives to the idea that this distinctive form of the name indicates a later interpolation. It is not just the name “Jesus” that is anarthrous in Mark 1:9 but also that of “John” (Ἰωάννου), and many commentators (e.g. E.P. Gould, C.E.B. Cranfield, R.T. France, Joel Marcus) note that this text is notably Semitic in its syntax. Given that Hebrew names do not take an article, the anarthrous usages could indicate a Semitic precursor to this part of gMark. Robert A. Guelich’s recent commentary concludes this passage “stems from pre-Marcan tradition” and notes:

The anarthrous use of “Jesus” and “John”, the absolute use of “the Spirit” and the reference to “the Jordan” stand in contrast to similar uses in 1:4-8 and suggest that this traditional unit existed separately from that behind 1:4-8. …. The evidence indicates that the evangelist brought this unit into conjunction with 1:2b-8 to form his prologue under the heading of 1:1-3.

(Guelich, Mark 1-8:26, Volume 34A , 2018)

So a much better interpretation of the anarthrous use of “Jesus” here is not that it represents a later interpolation, but rather the integration of a much earlier stratum of tradition. Which anchors the reference to Jesus’ origin in Nazareth even more firmly.

The claim that, minus the 1:9 reference, the Marcan Jesus is depicted as being from Capernaum rather than Nazareth is even weaker. Kennard sees remnants of this in Matt 9:1’s reference to Capernaum as Jesus’ “own city” ( ἰδίαν πόλιν), but this only refers to the fact that Jesus is depicted as living there for a while, not that it was his original town of origin. Even more tenuous is Kennard’s argument that the fact the temple tax collectors come to Peter in Capernaum and ask “does not your teacher pay the temple tax?” ( Matt 17:24 ) somehow means (i) he paid it in Capernaum and so (ii) he was from that town originally, neither of which follow at all.

Mark 2:1 and 9:33 refer to Jesus being (in many translations) “at home” in Capernaum. But the key phrases here simply means “in the house” (ἐν οἴκῳ/ ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ), not that it is his house, let alone that this means Capernaum is his town of origin. And the context makes it clear that this is not his house at all – it is that of Peter. Mark 1:21 has Jesus, the sons of Zebedee and Peter arrive in Capernaum and then Jesus preaches in the synagogue (v. 21-22), where he exorcises a demoniac (v. 23-28). They then go to a house that is specified as being “the house of Simon (Peter) and Andrew” (v. 29) where he heals Peter’s mother in law (v. 30-32) and many others who “gathered around the door” (v. 33). The next morning he gets up and goes to a “deserted place” to pray (v. 34) and then travels with Peter and the others around Galilee, before returning to Capernaum (2:1). It is at this point he is described as being found to be “at home” or rather “in the house”. Whose house? Given that he had clearly stayed at Peter’s house between v. 34 and v. 35 it would be very odd for it to be his own house, especially in a tiny town like Capernaum. So “the house” of Mark 2:1 and 9:33 is most obviously Peter’s. The idea that it is somehow the house of Jesus ignores all this context – gMark’s Jesus is a guest in Capernaum, not a permanent resident.

apocalyptic prophet

Nazareth, Nazarites, Nazir, Netzer etc.

Thus Mythicists try to dispose of the explicit Marcan reference to Jesus’ origin in Nazareth at Mark 1:9, often claiming that he was originally depicted as coming from Capernaum, with Nazareth a later accretion in the other three gospels and so not something historical. But what about all the other Marcan references to “Jesus of Nazareth” (e.g. Mark 1:24; 10:47; 14:67 or 16:6)? These, they claim, are not gentilics (i.e. references to his town of origin) but originally titles that refer to other things, not to his home town.

gMark uses forms of the word Ναζαρηνός (Nazarénos) in the examples above, and we also find this form in gLuke (see Luke 4:34 and 24:19). gMatt uses forms of Ναζωραῖος (Nazóraios), but both are generally translated as “the Nazarene” or simply as “of Nazareth” since they are interpreted as gentilics – much like Μαγδαληνή (Magdalene, of Magdala) or Κυρηναῖος (of Cyrene).

But Mythicists use various arguments to claim that these cannot be gentilics and so have to be titles that do not refer to his town of origin at all. They claim there are insurmountable etymological problems with deriving these words from Ναζαρέθ (Nazareth) and so they must originally be derived from something else. This argument was first used by non-Mythicists like Kennard, who refers to it in the beginning of his “Capernaum” article cited above:

The tradition that Jesus lived at one time in Nazareth rests upon a misinterpretation of the term ‘Nazorean’ which, as is commonly recognized today, is not derived from “Nazareth”. The city name would have yielded something like ‘Nazarethenos’, ‘Nazarethanos’ or ‘Nazarethaios’

Kennard, p. 131

But Kennard was corrected on this point in the same journal a few months later when W.F. Albright took issue with his blithe assurance that this “is commonly recognised today” noting:

The ordinary reader of [Kennard’s] paper will certainly take for granted that “Nazorean” (Ναζωραῖος) is, “as commonly recognized today, . . not derived from ‘Nazareth'”. This statement is, however, misleading, since the overwhelming majority of the scholars who have expressed themselves on the subject take just the opposite point of view.

Albright, “The Names ‘Nazareth’ and ‘Nazorean'” Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 65, No. 4 (Dec., 1946), pp. 397-401

Albright goes on to present several pages of linguistic analysis drawing on Aramaic and Arabic examples that show that not only can “Nazorean” be derived from “Nazareth”, but this is actually highly plausible. In his reply (“Nazorean and Nazareth”, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 66, No. 1 (Mar., 1947), pp. 79-81), Kennard has to concede that he overstated the case and that “Nazorean” can indeed be derived from “Nazareth”, though he disagrees that this is the most plausible derivation. He then falls back on other, non-linguistic arguments to make that case.

One of these is an argument that has been taken up by Mythicists – “[r]eligious movements do not, as a rule, take their names from the birthplace of their founder” (Kennard, p. 79). The problem here is that religious movements take their names (or are given names by others) from all kinds of things, including their founder’s name (“Manicheanism” from its founding prophet Mani), a name or title of its focus (“Rastafarianism” from a title of its Messiah Haile Selassie or, for that matter, “Christianity”), an attribute of the practitioners (the “Quakers”) or placenames (the “Albigensians” from the town of Albi or the “Taborites” from their centre in the Czech town of Tábor). So there is no “rule” when it comes to how these names are derived. That aside, it actually does make perfect sense that the Jesus sect came to be named after the element of his name which was most distinctive. “Yeshua” (Jesus) was, after all, the sixth most common Jewish men’s name in the first century AD. This is why a gentilic (“of Nazareth”) would have been useful to differentiate him from all the many other Galilean men called Jesus and why that gentilic was the distinctive element in his name that attached itself to his sect. So the sect is not actually named after his hometown – at least not directly. It is named after the founder by reference to his gentilic.

Many Mythicists also make much of the fact that the words Ναζαρηνός (Nazarénos, as per gMark and gLuke) and Ναζωραῖος (Nazóraios, used in gMatt) both contain the Greek letter zeta (ζ), whereas the Hebrew or Aramaic place we call “Nazareth” would have contained the Hebrew letter tsade (צ) which should be transliterated by the Greek letter sigma (σ). So, they argue, these words must derive from something other than the name “Nazareth”. Most who make this argument plump for some form of the Hebrew word nazir meaning “separated” or “consecrated” and referring to a “holy one”. Others prefer some derivation of the Hebrew nêtser meaning “a branch or shoot” as a reference to Isaiah 11:1 and the Messiah as the descendant or “shoot” of the house of Jesse and David. Either way, they argue that the zeta in these words shows they are titles of some kind and not derived from “Nazareth” at all.

The problem here is there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to how Semitic words and place-names were transliterated into Greek. It is certainly true that a tsade would usually be written as a sigma, but we have sufficient examples of it being transliterated as a zeta to make any argument based on some rigid rule here too weak to hold any weight. In Judges 8 the name of the Midianite king Zalmunna has his name transliterated with a sigma in the Septuagint, but with a zeta in Josephus. Ditto for the place-name Zoar in Genesis 13:10 and the cliff called Bozez in 1Samuel 14:4. Just to further illustrate the lack of total consistency on this point: in Genesis 22.21 we have Uz and Buz – the Septuagint uses a zeta and Josephus uses both a zeta in the first word and a sigma in the second. So the words Ναζαρηνός and Ναζωραῖος could be written with a zeta because there simply was no consistency.

Or it could reflect a regional peculiarity in Galilean pronunciation. After all, when the gospels do refer to the town we have no less than three versions of its name, each with a slightly different ending: Ναζαρέθ (Nazareth – in Matt 21:11; Luke 1:26; Luke 2:4; Luke 2:39; Luke 2:51 and Acts 10:38), Ναζαρά (Nazara – in Matt 4:13 and Luke 4:16) and Ναζαρέτ (Nazaret – in Mark 1:9; Matt 2:23; John 1:45 and John 1:46); one with the more voiced ending, one without it and one with a harder stop. The English place-name “Launceston” can be pronounced “LAWN-ceston”, or “LON-ceston” or even “LONS’ton” depending on who is saying it. How would a Chinese speaker transliterate this name? And would their version be completely consistent with other, similar names with similar spelling but differing regional pronunciations? Probably not. Again, the arguments used by the Mythicists are not robust enough to sustain their conclusions.

Another line of argument says that we can detect that the term Ναζαρηνός in gMark is not a gentilic by reference to its use in the first miracle story, where the word seems to be powerfully talismanic title or word of power which is recognised by the demon cast out by Jesus in Mark 1:21-28. This was argued by the French (non-Mythicist) scholar Charles Guignebert (1867-1939) in his 1933 work Jésus, where he notes that the demoniac in the Mark 1 story asks:

“What have you to do with us, Jesus the Nazarene? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God.”

( Mark 1:24 )

Guignebert points to the parallel between this and the cry of another possessed man in Mark 5:

“What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.”

(Mark 5:7)

Guignebert argues from this parallel:

If we compare [these passages] …. we shall notice: first, that the expression, “Son of the most high God,” stands in the same place in the second passage as “the Nazarene” does in the first, and seems to be equivalent to it;
second, that “the Holy One of God” and “the Son of God” express similar conceptions, which shows that the former is simply an expansion of “the Nazarene”.

Guignebert, p. 83

Guignebert makes some similar arguments about other uses of the word “Nazarene”, such as in John 18:4-5 where the guards are asked by Jesus who they are looking for and reply “Jesus the Nazarene” and then fall to the ground when Jesus says “I am [he]”. So Guignebert claims these examples show that there must have been much more to this word than the designation of his original home town.

But, again, this argument is far too tenuous to carry sufficient weight. The parallel formulations in Mark 1:24 and 5:7 have the demons effectively saying “What do you want with us? Leave us alone!” – the same reaction from similar beings to the same situation. It is a stretch to argue that “Nazarene” in the first passage is somehow the “equivalent” to “Son of the most high God”, given that the demons in the first example go on to say “I know who you are, the Holy One of God”. This indicates that “Nazarene” did not have this meaning at all, otherwise this second statement would be fairly redundant. The John 18 example is similarly weak, since it is the fact that Jesus replies with the divine assertion “I am” (Ἐγώ εἰμι) – a repeated element in gJohn – that elicits their stunned reaction, not the fact that he said he was Jesus the Nazarene.

The overarching problem with all of these attempts at making the references to Nazareth go away and the variants of the term “Nazarene” mean something else is that none of them are sufficiently compelling to unseat the generally accepted readings. As ever, Mythicists have roamed the well-ploughed field of New Testament Studies and found some bits and pieces of ideas that can be cobbled together to fit their agenda, but there are solid reasons none of these fringe ideas and obscure speculations have been accepted. In the final analysis, even the most sceptical critical scholars find this idea that the Nazareth element is a later accretion or some kind of misreading of something else uncompelling. Yet again, the only reason Mythicists find them convincing is because they need to prop up their contrived theory with whatever then can find.

A few, however, go much further than the fringe ideas above. They do not just argue Jesus’ origin in Nazareth is a later addition to the story and so not a historical element. They argue that it cannot be historical because Nazareth itself, like Jesus, never existed. And to do this they make some brave and radical forays into archaeology.

Rene Salm

The Piano Man

While there has been some previous questioning about the existence of Nazareth in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, the embrace of this idea by many of the current crop of Mythicists is largely due to the work of one writer: a composer and retired piano teacher and tuner from Eugene, Oregon, named René Salm.

According to his own account, Salm is a remarkable figure. Not only is he a published composer of classical piano pieces and a concert-quality pianist, but he is also apparently a “mental health professional” and “a linguist who commands many ancient and modern languages” who somehow manages to live “without need of car or television”. What Salm is not, however, is an archaeologist. Despite his manifold talents, he has no training in archaeology, has no qualification or academic publications in that field and has never excavated anywhere. But, with all the confidence of the autodidact, he has certainly not let this deter him.

He recounts that he began his delving into the archaeology of Nazareth as a result of his interests in religious history and the study of Christian origins. He was motivated by an online discussion to seek out the archaeological evidence that Jesus’ home town existed, expecting to find this easily. But, he says, he was startled to find the evidence was thin and, to him, unconvincing. This began what he reports as a 16 year process of researching and writing his book The Myth of Nazareth: The Invented Town of Jesus (American Atheist Press, 2008). For those who are not invested enough in this topic to buy and read Salm’s book (375 pages, with extensive footnotes, an eight page bibliography and no less than seven appendices), Salm gives an accessible summary of his arguments in this 2016 YouTube interview:

His book was very well-received by a certain kind of audience. Former American Atheists president Frank Zindler was extremely impressed, declaring dramatically that Christian apologists would be out of work “unless they can disprove this book – or find a way to suppress it”. Then again, given that Zindler was Salm’s editor and publisher, he was hardly going to talk it down. Equally impressed was fellow Jesus Mythicist and maverick New Testament scholar Robert Price, who gushed to Salm that “I …. can’t wait to see the pathetic attempts to reply!”.

Zindler and Price did not have to wait too long to see replies, though they were not by newly unemployed Christian apologists, but by archaeologists. In 2007 the Bulletin of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society had published “Surveys and Excavations at the Nazareth Village Farm (1997–2002): Final Report” by S. Pfann, R. Voss, Y. Rapuano ( vol. 25 (2007) pp. 19-79 ). Salm’s book had already gone to press at this stage, but he wrote a detailed response disputing their findings, so the Bulletin published this in the next volume of the journal (early 2008), along with a reply to Salm by Pfann and Rapuano. Given that by this stage Salm’s book had been released, the editors of the Bulletin also asked British archaeologist Ken Dark, who had excavated at Nazareth and knew the sites there well, to read and review what the journal’s editorial called “Salm’s controversial book”. Dark was not impressed with the piano tuner’s work. After five pages of detailed criticisms, Dark’s review concludes:

[D]espite initial appearances, this is not a well-informed study and ignores much evidence and important published work of direct relevance.The basic premise is faulty, and Salm’s reasoning is often weak and shaped by his preconceptions. Overall, his central argument is archaeologically unsupportable.

“Review: Salm, R The Myth of Nazareth: The Invented Town of Jesus (K. Dark) ” Bulletin of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society, vol. 26 (2008) pp. 140-145)

Pfann and Rapuano were similarly unimpressed with both Salm’s criticisms of their work and with his book:

Salm’s personal evaluation of the pottery, which he rehearses from his book The Nazareth Myth, reveals his lack of expertise in the area as well as his lack of serious research in the sources. By ignoring or dismissing solid ceramic, numismatic and literary evidence for Nazareth’s existence during the Late Hellenistic and Early Roman period, it would appear that the analysis which René Salm includes in his review, and his recent book must, in itself, be relegated to the realm of ‘myth’. By upholding the idea of a myth, Salm has created a myth himself.

 “On the Nazareth Village Farm Report: A Reply to Salm”, pp. 105-108

Despite Salm’s claims that archaeologists have somehow avoided his work or ignored him, specialists in the very archaeology he focuses on assessed his book as soon as it was published and found it flawed, tendentious and unconvincing. Like all such amateur enthusiasts, Salm has rejected the experts’ opinion and even concocted increasingly elaborate conspiracy theories to explain why these foolish archaeologists will not acknowledge the obvious correctness and manifest brilliance of his ideas. But it does not take much critical analysis to see why their rejection of his thesis is completely justified.

As already noted, Salm has no archaeological training at all. He has never excavated anywhere and has certainly never excavated at Nazareth – a site which, as far as can be made out, he seems to have only ever visited as a tourist. His “methodology” consists entirely of an armchair critique of the work of actual archaeologists, by which he claims to sustain the following thesis: that ancient Nazareth was inhabited prior to the Assyrian Conquest, but the valley was then abandoned for centuries and only settled “towards the end of the first century of our era, following the momentous cataclysm of the First Jewish War” (Salm, The Myth of Nazareth, p. 207). This means there could not have been any “Jesus of Nazareth” because Nazareth did not exist until several decades after the time in which Jesus was supposed to have lived.

Actual archaeologists, however, say that Nazareth was not only consistently inhabited but was also very much inhabited in the Hellenic, Hasmonean and Early Roman Periods – in other words, the first two centuries BC and the first half of the first century AD. So Salm goes to great lengths to “show” how these archaeologists are all wrong. Indeed, not just wrong but also foolish, incompetent and, perhaps, deceitful or even outright liars and frauds. And he does this all from the comfort of an armchair in Eugene, Oregon.

For example, Salm makes a great deal of the fact that several lamps discovered in Nazareth have been claimed to be “Hellenic” or “Herodian” in date but are actually “Middle Roman” (i.e. post-70 AD) at the earliest. Therefore, he argues, these lamps cannot be evidence Nazareth was inhabited in the early first century; the time of Jesus. The so-called “Herodian lamps” or “bow-spouted lamps” are noted by archaeologists to be clear indications that the valley was inhabited in precisely the period Salm’s theory needs to avoid. No less than fourteen of these lamps have been found. Two of them were found in one tomb about 320 meters south-west of the Church of the Annunciation, and they can be seen in the photo below:

Six lamps from Tomb 72, with the bow-spouted examples at bottom left and bottom right

But Salm insists that these lamps are not as early most archaeologists claim. Back in the 1960s archaeologists considered this distinctively Jewish style of artefact to begin appearing as early as 75 BC. More recent work has brought that forward and Salm quotes Varda Sussman dating their first appearance to “the reign of King Herod” (i.e. 37-4 BC) and then in a later article two years afterwards revising this, saying “Recent archaeological evidence suggests that their first appearance was somewhat later, after the reign of Herod” (Sussman, “Lighting the Way Through History”, Biblical Archaeology Review, Mar/Apr 1985).

The only problem here is that this estimate of this kind of lamp’s inception, which is the latest Salm can find in the literature, still does not help him, because it actually places this kind of lamp right in the middle of the very period he desperately needs to avoid – the early First Century AD. But Salm is nothing if not resourceful:

Thus, we can now date the first appearance of the bow-spouted lamp in Jerusalem to c. 1-25 CE. Because a few years must be allowed for the spread of the type to rural villages of the north, c. 15-c. 40 CE is the earliest probable time for the appearance of this type in Southern Galilee. Accordingly, we shall adopt 25 CE as the terminus post quem for the bow-spouted oil lamp at Nazareth.

(Salm, 2008, pp 168-69)

By this bit of fancy footwork, Salm manages to take Sussman’s “somewhat later, after the reign of Herod”, tack on a whole quarter of a century to get these lamps a mere 150 kilometres north to southern Galilee and thus at least edge the terminus post quem for these artefacts a bit further away from the time of Jesus. Exactly how he came up with the figure of 25 years or why it would take 25 years for a style of lamp which became common precisely because it was so easy to make to spread a couple of days walk northwards he never bothers to explain. It is by this kind of sleight of hand that Salm shapes the evidence to fit his assumed conclusion throughout his work.

[Edit: I have removed some discussion I originally made about Salm’s use of the work of archaeologist Hans-Peter Kuhnen on the dating of the kokhim tombs on the Nazareth site, because I was wrong that this depended on his interpretation of one line in one of Kuhnen’s works. That said, Salm’s argument that these tombs date to the later first century do not actually help him, since high status tombs of this kind do not suddenly spring into being out of nowhere. They require an earlier settlement.}

The Great Nazareth Conspiracy!

Of course, any argument based on an absence of evidence runs into a problem any time new evidence appears. After a reported 16 years labouring on The Myth of Nazareth, Salm must have been startled to read, around the time his opus went to press, the previously mentioned 61 page report of new finds from the “Nazareth Farm” area by Pfann, Voss and Rapuano. Not surprisingly, Salm was stirred to find ways to counter this evidence that punctured his thesis – thus his nine page critique in the next edition of the Bulletin (Salm, “A Response to ‘Surveys and Excavations at the Nazareth Village Farm (1997-2002): Final Report'”, Bulletin of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society , vol. 26 (2008) pp. 95-103 ). The “Final Report” article had detailed numerous finds of ceramic shards in an extensive appendix by Jewish archaeologist and ancient ceramics expert Yehuda Rapuano, including finds from the Hellenic and Early Roman Eras. Ten pages of the 61 page archaeological report detail the finds from a number of sites, giving diagrammatic drawings of many and assessments of the nature of the (usually) fragmentary items and estimates of their date provenance. This is all standard stuff as any archaeologist would expect to find in any peer-reviewed journal report of this kind.

Rapuano notes that the finds ranged from a single potsherd from an Early Bronze Age III Period platter (an intrusive incidental find, since there is no other indication of settlement on the site in that period) up to an entirely intact “Black Gaza Ware” bowl from the Ottoman Period. Rapuano summarised the finds saying:

The earliest occupation seems to have occurred in the late Hellenistic period of the first and second centuries BC. Examples dating to this period were primarily the jar and jug sherds discovered in Area B-1. A single jug base of this period was also found in Area A-2 (Fig. 38.5). The horizontal handle of the krater (Fig. 38:6) may derive from this period as well. A small amount of material dated to the Early Roman period of the first century BC to first century AD was found in Areas A-1, A-2 and C-1. The best represented pottery at the site was dated from the Late Roman to the early Byzantine period of the third to fourth or fifth centuries AD. The only area in which pottery from this period was not found was Area B-1.

(Rapuano, p. 69)

Again, this is all standard stuff with appropriately cautious language in places (“may derive from this period as well”) and a clear indication of the relative volumes and general distributions of the finds. The problem for Salm is the detailing of Hellenistic and Early Roman period finds in areas B-1, A-1, A-2 and C-1 of the dig, which according to his armchair theory should not be there. Rapuano then goes on over the following pages to detail the finds from each location on the site. For example:

Fig. 38:3 is the folded, everted rim and short, cylindrical neck of a storage jar that may date to the Herodian period, and Fig. 38:4 is the rim of a storage jar of the Late Hellenistic period. The base of a jug, Fig. 38:5, could date either to the late Hellenistic or Early Roman period.

(Rapuano, p. 71)

Again, Rapuano expresses himself with the usual caution required of a professional archaeologist, while at the same time giving his trained assessment of their dating provenance. Even excluding finds where Rapuano’s date range estimates cover the early first century AD but extend into later periods, there are no less than 20 finds in his report that he judged to be from the period in which the piano teacher Salm claims there was no settlement there.

So how does Salm deal with all this? Badly. Given that he has no training in the discipline and so has never analysed an artefact in his life, he can hardly dispute Rapuano’s assessment. And he has never even seen the finds in question and only seems to have visited Nazareth once as a tourist. So he is reduced to nitpicking. He leaps on what he claims is evidence of incompetence, saying the report’s authors give two different dates for the same artefact. Actually, as Pfann and Rapuano were later able to confirm, the mistake was made by the article’s editors – they simply mislabelled a diagram drawing of the find.

Apart from this Salm has pretty much got nothing. Faced with multiple finds at several locations on the site, all from the very periods he claims Nazareth was uninhabited, he simply declares the archaeologists wrong on the weird grounds that only 15 of the finds in the report are noted with a typological parallel. Rapuano refers to examples in Adan-Bayewitz’s Common Pottery in Roman Galilee (1993) in several places, but Salm declares that because he does not do this for all the finds (which is in no way standard in any archaeological report), his estimates can be rejected:

“Put bluntly, the NVF evidence for Nazareth in the time of Jesus rests on no more than Y. Rapuano’s opinion.”

(Salm, Scandal 5: The Nazareth Village Farm

Put bluntly, this is ludicrous. The appendix is by a qualified archaeologist who is an acknowledged expert in identifying and dating ceramics from this period and which has been published in a peer-reviewed journal of archaeology which is used by other qualified experts. It is absolutely standard in the way it reports the finds and that supposedly mere “opinion” is exactly the opinion that counts – one by an expert who has excavated many sites and reported many, many other such finds in precisely this way. To dismiss the “opinion” of a qualified expert is breathtaking. Whose opinions are we meant to rely on then? It seems the armchair pontificating from a piano player from Oregon is the only opinion that matters, according to Salm. The blithe arrogance here is as astounding as it is ridiculous.

But still more evidence was to emerge. In his response to Pfann, Voss and Rapuano’s “Final Report” article, Salm expressed great scepticism about their reference to how 165 coins found by Israeli archaeologist Yardena Alexandre at a site at Mary’s Well in Nazareth had included “a few Hellenistic, Hasmonaean [and] Early Roman … coins”. Salm responded:

The above statement is remarkable to me, because in 2006 Ms. Alexandre graciously shared with me a pre-publication copy of her official [Israeli Antiquities Authority] report on the excavation at Mary’s Well. As I write these lines that short report is before me, and it contains no mention of ‘165 coins’ nor of coins from Hellenistic or Hasmonaean times. …. Certainly, it is difficult to believe that such significant evidence as coins from the Hellenistic, Hasmonaean, and Early Roman periods (incidentally, not otherwise attested in the Nazareth basin) was subsequently divulged to the authors of the [Nazareth Village Farm Report], but escaped the official IAA report.

(Salm, “A Response”, 100)

Salm’s comment here ignores the fact that the brief summary Alexandre was kind enough to share with him via email in 2006 was just that: a summary. He also neglects to notice that her summary actually did refer to some “worn coins”, which were the very coins he claims she neglected to mention. In their response in the 2008 Bulletin, Pfann and Rapuano replied that the “remarkable statement” that Salm found so “difficult to believe” was actually provided to them by Alexandre herself – archaeologists tend to co-operate much more closely with each other than with random piano tuners.

But Salm could not imagine that what Alexandre had shared with a stranger in response to an unsolicited email request may not have been the full story. So he descended into conspiracy theory. On his website he declared himself “flabbergasted” at Pfann and Rapuano’s reference to her finding coins from the Hellenistic, Hasmonean, and Early Roman periods and at their revelation that Alexandre herself had given them the very paragraph he objected to. Why would she have not told him about these coins? Why, if they were using her words, did they not use quotation marks? Why were they referring to coins from another site in Nazareth at all? His conclusion? The whole thing is a fraud cooked up by Pfann, Rapuano and Alexandre, exposed by the intrepid René Salm – the Hercule Poirot of Nazareth archaeology!

Except Salm was completely wrong. At the end of his web article in which he uncovered this wicked plot Salm concluded:

Alexandre herself has been reported to claim that her original IAA notice was not definitive and omitted critical Jesus-era evidence—yet she refuses to set the record straight via publication.

“Refuses”! Unfortunately for Salm and other lovers of the dramatic, the truth was simply that the wheels of editing and publication in archaeology turn slowly and, in 2012 Alexandre published the full report on the site (Alexandre, Mary’s Well, Nazareth. The Late Hellenistic to the Ottoman Periods, Jerusalem, IAA Reports 49), complete with a whole chapter on the coins found there by numismatist Ariel Berman. Salm had been tripped up by reality again.

But cranks like Salm are indefatigable. He now produced a second book, with the luridly tabloid title NazarethGate: Quack Archaeology, Holy Hoaxes and the Invented Town of Jesus (American Atheist Press, 2015), that purported to expose a vast conspiracy involving the Israeli Antiquities Authority, Pfann, Rapuano, New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman, Alexandre and a cast of dozens of other fraudsters. Now that his attempts at depicting the coins as non-existent had totally failed, Salm had to find a way to dismiss their dating to the periods that did not fit his theory. So he contacted the Israeli Antiquities Authority requesting “photos of all of the ‘Hellenistic’ coins” (NazarethGate, p.297). Given that they did not have photos of all the coins in question and would have to have them made, Salm entered into “a considerable amount of negociation [sic]” to badger them into producing photos of four of the coins. And then decided, on receiving them, that “the coins are far too worn and pitted to ascertain even the crudest design feature. These bronze coins could be from any era” (NazarethGate, p. 298).

Of course, this is an amateur with no training in numismatics working purely from some photos of a few of the coins and, from the comfort of his armchair, second-guessing the expert opinion of a well-known expert in the coins of this period who had not only examined these artefacts with a trained eye, but (unlike Salm) did so with the actual coins in his hands, taking into account weight, size and fine features that would not be discernible via a photo alone. So we are meant to conclude that (a) Berman is a total incompetent, (b) Berman is another fraud and part of the vast “NazarethGate” conspiracy or (c) Salm is just biased, unreliable, inexpert and wrong. That is not a difficult choice to make.

But Salm soon had yet more problems. In 2009 press reports emerged about the discovery of a house in Nazareth which seemed to date from the early first century (see, for example, “Nazareth dwelling discovery may shed light on boyhood of Jesus”, Guardian, Dec 22, 2009). Yet again archaeologists had found something that did not fit Salm’s theory and it was Salm’s new nemesis Alexandre who featured in the news reports. Salm’s armchair investigations swung into action again and it was not long before he was able to confidently dismiss the dating of the structure and also decide that it was a “winemaking installation” and not a house at all (see NazarethGate, pp.178-245). The archaeologists were all wrong, yet again, and the omnicompetent Salm had exposed their wicked deceptions once more. Or so he insisted.

In an interesting sequel to Salm’s confident armchair critiques, an American Christian with an interest in archaeology named Jim Joyner became aware of Salm’s books. He had visited Israel several times and got to know Dr Mordechai (“Motti”) Aviam – the leading expert in the archaeology of Roman Era Galilee. He introduced Aviam to Salm’s claims about Nazareth and eventually co-ordinated an email correspondence between Aviam, Salm and Salm’s publisher, American Atheists’ Frank Zindler. In a comment on Bart Ehrman’s blog, Joyner relates what happened next:

Motti tried to address Salm’s criticisms of archaeological knowledge about 1st century Nazareth, especially the Nazareth residence discovered in 2009. …. Motti offered to Salm to go to the site, meet with the IAA excavator, review the finds and report back. Motti did what he promised, noted the fragments of Hellenistic and ER pottery, including fragments of small stone vessels. He came back and said there was no doubt about the early date of the residence. They questioned Motti’s comments with some strained arguments, and Motti responded (paraphrase): your conclusion is influenced by your atheistic beliefs … we don’t do science that way! This is where the discussion ended.

(I should note here that I contacted Joyner directly to confirm this is what happened and I then contacted Dr. Aviam, who also confirmed these events.)

This is quite remarkable. Here is the leading authority on Roman Galilee actually going to the site in question and confirming that it is, in fact, an Early Roman Era house and what do Salm and Zindler do? The piano tuner and the biology teacher tell the expert archaeologist that HE is wrong. These people are total fanatics.

As ever with these obsessive cranks, it would take two books longer than both of Salm’s to debunk everything he says and point out all the leaps of logic or loaded assumptions and other sleight of hand tricks that pad out his armchair critiques. When he was merely nitpicking at the evidence in his first book he was simply being the standard kind of amateur crackpot. But as more and more evidence overtook that approach, Salm has tipped over into full blown conspiracy theorist.

It is not too remarkable that someone like Salm exists or even that he can get his stuff into print – there will always be an audience for this crank material. What is remarkable is the eagerness with which some people who claim to be rationalists lap up his kooky stuff. Prominent sceptic and debunker of frauds, James “the Amazing” Randi, has enthusiastically endorsed Salm, uncritically parroting his arguments and dismissing the (mostly Jewish) archaeologists as Christian apologists. But not all of the usual suspects find Salm convincing. To his credit, notorious Mythicist Richard Carrier is not convinced by Salm’s work – which is remarkable, given that he usually boosts and justifies any argument that helps his Mythicist apologism. If even Carrier considers this thesis to be dubious nonsense, it really is a stinker.

The fact is that all the evidence indicates that Nazareth did exist in the early first century, the gospels did depict Jesus as being from Nazareth and this fact was awkward for the gospel writers in several ways. Jesus’ origin in Nazareth therefore appears to be highly likely to be a historical element in his story and not something added to it later on. The only parsimonious conclusion that can be drawn is that the historical Jesus was most likely from the small town of Nazareth.

Edit 19/04/20

In February 2020 the British Archaeologist Ken Dark released a new book on the archaeology of Nazareth – Roman-Period and Byzantine Nazareth and its Hinterland (Routledge, 2020). In his introduction Dark makes some comments on Salm’s silly theory and, given that the book has a hefty price tag, I will reproduce them here. After noting the relative lack of scholarly literature on the archaeology of sites in Nazareth he says:

In the absence of scholarly studies there have also been more speculative discussions of the archaeology of Nazareth. The superficially most detailed of these non-academic accounts is that by René Salm, who has produced two books claiming to disprove the existence of early first century Nazareth (Salm with Zindler 2015; Salm 2008). Published by the American Atheist Press, Salm’s books are written from the viewpoint that early first-century Nazareth was an imaginary place, invented to provide a context for the Gospel stories (Salm with Zindler 2015, 47). In order to try to show that Nazareth only came into existence after the Second Temple period (that is, after c. 70), Salm aims to prove that there is no archaeological evidence for Late Hellenistic or Early Roman occupation on the site of modern Nazareth. However, Salm himself admits that he has no archaeological training or qualifications (Salm with Zindler 2015, 19, 130), and his books exhibit a misunderstanding of even the basics of the archaeological process, from stratigraphy, through artefact dating, to conventional publication procedures and the critical use of analogy.

Any attempt to use archaeology to disprove the existence of the biblical place called Nazareth is inevitably flawed because one would need to conclusively identify the place called Nazareth in the Gospels, and then show beyond archaeological doubt that it was unoccupied in the early first century. Whether the Nazareth of the Gospels is beneath modern Nazareth is a matter of interpretation rather than certainty. If it could be proved that there was no early first-century occupation anywhere in modern Nazareth, which is theoretically impossible in a built-up modern city, it might just mean that the place called Nazareth in the Gospels may be somewhere other than modern Nazareth, a suggestion which goes back to at least the tenth century (Chapter 3).

Alternatively, settlement might have shifted within the zone occupied by the present city of Nazareth, as occurred elsewhere. Perhaps the most famous example is that of Anglo Saxon London (Biddle 2014). Until the 1980s, no archaeological evidence seemed to support the eighth-century historian Bede’s observation that seventh-century London was a thriving mercantile town. Some archaeologists even thought that seventh-century London was a mere invention on Bede’s part. The negative evidence seemed convincing: the City of London was much more extensively excavated by 1980 than Nazareth is today. Then, two archaeologists independently re-analysed previously discovered material, showing that there was, in fact,  plenty of evidence for a large seventh-century trading settlement (Biddle 1984; Vince 1984), but that it lay just to the west of where other scholars had been expecting the Anglo-Saxon town. No serious archaeologist working on London today doubts that the seventh-century town was, as Bede said, a thriving port. At Tours also, the urban centre shifted in Late Antiquity from inside its Roman walls to around the tomb of St Martin (Galinié 1978, 2007). One might bear such examples in mind when thinking about Nazareth.

(Dark, 2020, pp. 6-7)

In response to this, I am sure we can expect another explosion of towering pomposity and sneering bile from the Oregon piano man shortly.

Edit 23/07/20

The problems with Salm’s crackpot thesis continue to accumulate. Israeli archaeologist Yardenna Alexandre has published a new article on her excavations in Nazareth in the Israel Antiquities Authority journal ‘Atiqot – “The Settlement History of Nazareth in the Iron Age and Early Roman Period”, ‘Atiqot, 98, 2020, pp. 25-92. The article synopsis reads:

A small-scale excavation carried out next to the Franciscan Church of the Annunciation compound in Nazareth exposed the remains of three building strata: Stratum III, from Iron IIA–B (tenth–early eighth centuries BCE); Stratum II, from the late Hellenistic to the Early Roman period (late second century BCE–first third of the second century CE); and Stratum I, from the Crusader to Mamluk periods (twelfth–fifteenth centuries CE). The late Hellenistic to Early Roman-period dwelling incorporated a three-level complex of subterranean pits or silos. Within the pits, many potsherds were discarded, perhaps attesting to the Jewish practice of ritual defilement of ceramic vessels that were rendered impure. Similar findings were documented at other Jewish villages of the Early Roman period in Galilee.

This means the finds span precisely the period in which Salm claims Nazareth was not inhabited. Additionally, the same issue of the journal includes an article by Nimrod Marom on animal bone finds in Nazareth that span this period as well – “Faunal Remains from Nazareth”, ‘Atiqot, 98, 2020, pp. 93-102. Both articles are available for download from the “Atiqot website. So Salm has yet more rearguard ad hoc scrambling to do. I wonder if he and his equally deluded supporters will ever realise that he is simply … wrong.

Edit 30/06/23

With the release of his new book Archaeology of Jesus’ Nazareth (OUP, 2023) Ken Dark, now Professor of Archaeology and History at the University of Reading, took the time to discuss the archaeology of Roman Era Nazareth in an interview with me and to explain, very politely, why Salm’s theory is crackpot nonsense.

248 thoughts on “Jesus Mythicism 5: The Nazareth “Myth”

  1. Given that so much of the Jesus-tradition is incompatible with itself, the two birth stories and the accounts of the resurrection being the prime examples, there was probably spotty communication among the different churches/regions. Paul’s letters corroborate this in that the Apostle exhibits little desire to transmit the tradition in a comprehensive way; Paul’s preaching is very limited in its scope, focusing on the death and resurrection of Jesus.

    Because of this, we shouldn’t see consistency across the tradition on the matter of Nazareth unless Jesus’ origins there were historical. At least Mark, John, L, and M contain reference to Nazareth as Jesus’ hometown.

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    1. “census of Quirinius” is actually a Mistranslation, Luke is referring to this being the first Empire Wide Roman Census after Syria and Cyrene became provinces. Tertulian refereed to someone else as Syria’s Governor at the time with no acknowledgement that this supposedly contradicted Luke’s Gospel. I believe the Census in mind is the 25 BC Census.

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      1. ““census of Quirinius” is actually a Mistranslation”

        No, it is not. The reference is quite clearly to the AD 6-7 census conducted by Quirinius when Judea was annexed to direct Roman rule after the deposition of Archelaus.

        “Luke is referring to this being the first Empire Wide Roman Census after Syria and Cyrene became provinces. “

        Cyrene became a Roman province in 74 BC. Syria did so in 64 BC. And there was no “Empire wide census” associated with either event – why would there be? Finally, no such census of Roman administered territory would affect Judea while it was still a client kingdom – the Romans didn’t administer censuses in client territories. So all those claims fail on multiple fronts.

        “Tertulian refereed to someone else as Syria’s Governor at the time with no acknowledgement that this supposedly contradicted Luke’s Gospel. “

        Because that’s a misreading of what Tertullian says. He is saying that there is census information that would attest to the existence of Jesus’ brothers, contrary to the claims of the Marcionites. Those brothers were born after Jesus, so he can’t be referring to the same census in Luke 2 (thus no reference to any contradiction). The “Sentius Saturninus” he refers to is not Gaius Sentius Saturninus (Syrian governor 9-7/6 BC) but his younger son Gnaeus Sentius Saturninus (Syrian governor 19-21 AD). You are just getting confused.

        “I believe the Census in mind is the 25 BC Census.”

        Which doesn’t fit the dates of either Sentius Saturninus and doesn’t work because the Romans didn’t administer censuses in client kingdoms. So that fails totally as well. These are the “exegetical acrobatics” acrobatics Vermes was referring to. I’ve been over all the various silly and contrived ways apologists try to get around the historical contradictions inherent in Luke’s reference to the census and none of them work. I’d strongly suggest you stop now or things will go very, very badly for you.

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        1. Luke is described a “World” wide Census and Herod as being King. Nothing fits the alleged 6 AD Census at all. And the way Luke spelled Quirinus in Greek is distinctly different from what we see in Luke’s Gospel.

          I said first Census after they became Provinces, which was the one that started in 25 AD.

          On the subject of Nazzareth, I agree the city we usually identify as Narzareth did already exist, yet i have a hypothesis NT Nazareth is actually Sepphoris.

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          1. “Luke is described a “World” wide Census”

            Yes, which is fantasy. There was never any such thing.

            “And the way Luke spelled Quirinus in Greek is distinctly different from what we see in Luke’s Gospel.”

            I’ve read your terrible blog post on this – it’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve read in months. Of course there is variation in how a Latin name got transliterated into Greek. If you are convinced by your bizarre arguments, good for you. Everyone else on the planet can see Luke 2 is talking about Quirinius. Occam’s Razor chops your silly string of suppositions into confetti. Go away.

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        2. This is though based on the premise, that Josephus actually got the date of the census correct. There seems to be multiple indications (not even just indications, it rather seems wildly implausible that it would be the other way around) that Josephus erred with the dating (mainly based on the similarities of two Judasses of Galilee doing the same revolt and being turned down by the same high priest who should have been deposed in between etc. pp).

          Maybe you’d like to dig into this paper on that topic:
          https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/54/54-1/JETS_54-1_65-87_Rhoads.pdf

          1. No, I don’t need to dig into that contrived attempt at getting around the key problems here. That argument doesn’t work.

          2. This argument relies too heavily on bold speculation and shaky claims about the names of the two Judases. It has not convinced experts. There is a very careful analysis and refutation near the end of this article:

            Bernier, Jonathan. “When Paul Met Sergius: An Assessment of Douglas Campbell’s Pauline Chronology for the Years 36 to 37.” Journal of Biblical Literature, vol. 138, no. 4, 2019, pp. 829–43. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.15699/jbl.1384.2019.8.

  2. Salm did not claim it took “25 years” for a lamp which became common. You should read the Salm quote again.

    If Herodian lamps were started to be manufactured early first century in the Judean Kingdom why would those in Nazareth be evidence of Nazareth existing 5 BC? Those lamps could have been manufactured around 50 AD and used until the Great Revolt and end up in Nazareth 73 AD with refugees.

    Salm’s book was published 2008, but you claim that “Zindler and Price did not have to wait too long to see replies… In 2007 the Bulletin of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society had published…” How did the reply come before the Salm’s book? How did this study know Salm’s arguments before the book got published? Is it more likely Salm replied to the 2007 study?

    Where can we see these coins and the Jesus’ era house? Any evidence which coins came from where as typically these kind of finds are well documented. If we really find a Jesus era house why was it reburied and not restored. It sure would be ten times more valuable than any development planned on that house.

    For full disclosure it would also be worth mentioning the millions Yardena Alexandre’s team received from Israel Government Tourist Corporation and Nazareth Municipality turism support. Salm was not sponsored by anyone.

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    1. If Herodian lamps were started to be manufactured early first century in the Judean Kingdom why would those in Nazareth be evidence of Nazareth existing 5 BC?”

      Salm is trying to argue that no Early Roman artefacts have been found in Nazareth. But even by Sussman’s revised dating, these lamps count as Early Roman artefacts. So he has to tack on several decades to when these simple artefacts could make it two days walk north from Judea to try to push them out of his theory’s dating danger zone. Somehow he gets “c. 1-25 CE” from Sussman’s very vague “somewhat later, after the reign of Herod” and then tacks on some more years to push the Galilean date to c. 15-c. 40 CE. This is all totally contrived.

      “How did the reply come before the Salm’s book?”

      It didn’t. Read what I said more carefully. The sequence of events was (i) Salm spent 16 years researching and writing his book, (ii) it was in pre-publication in 2007, (iii) Pfann, Voss and Rapuano published their “Final Report” article in the Bulletin in 2007, too late (by his own account) for Salm to address it, (iv) so Salm responded to it in an reply to the Bulletin, (v) the Bulletin‘s editors asked Pfann and Rapuano to respond and, since Salm’s book had now come out (2008) asked Dark to review that as well, (vi) Salm’s response to Pfann, Voss and Rapuano, Pfann and Rapuano’s reply and Dark’s review all appear in the same 2008 edition of the Bulletin.

      “Where can we see these coins and the Jesus’ era house? Any evidence which coins came from where as typically these kind of finds are well documented”

      I gave the full citation in my article: they are published in Y. Alexandre, Mary’s Well, Nazareth. The Late Hellenistic to the Ottoman Periods, (Jerusalem, IAA Reports 49), with Ariel Berman’s numismatic catalogue of all the coin finds making up Chapter 5, p. 107 ff.

      The house site has not been published yet. These things often take many years to find their way into the literature.

      “If we really find a Jesus era house why was it reburied and not restored.”

      It’s still being excavated.

      “For full disclosure it would also be worth mentioning the millions Yardena Alexandre’s team received from Israel Government Tourist Corporation and Nazareth Municipality turism support.”

      Excavations cost money. And where are you getting “millions” from? Finally, are you seriously trying to claim world class archaeologists are just lying for money? Please don’t be ridiculous. And was Aviam also being paid when he volunteered to look at the site and give Salm his expert evaluation? How wide that this vast conspiracy stretch?

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      1. People don’t care about “Early Roman” period of Nazareth. It is all about if it existed 5 BC or not. Your “world class archaeologists” chose not to carbon date the lamps when those were found which raised eyebrows at the time. It is a cheap standard method she chose not to do without explanation.

        The coins are also weird case. Those were omitted from the draft report by your “world class archaeologists” then added later as a main evidence. Remains me of how many biblical doctrines are in the last lines of Gospel but were missing from the original drafts. That is not a normal process by “world class archaeologists”.

        15 years ago newspapers were full of Alexandre linking her excavation to Jesus’ First Miracle. Again eye browns were raised when Jewish media published that Israel Government Tourist Corporation gave over $1M and she just happened to find a perfect tourist destination near between Nazareth and Capernaum. People were also surprised that no carbon dating were made of the objects (why?). You don’t have to be an archaeologists or conspiracy theorists to point out the fallacy of the claim that Jesus’ miracle happened there – just point out what the link from Cana excavation to Jesus is!

        This “world class archaeologists” must be the best as she always find artifacts related to Jesus if Government/Municipality tourism sponsors her a large sum of money. All the rest of the archaeologists (Usually university sponsored) just find artifacts but don’t link those directly to Jesus – Why is that?

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        1. “People don’t care about “Early Roman” period of Nazareth. It is all about if it existed 5 BC or not.”

          You have a very strange idea about how precise archaeological dating can be. It’s impossible for anything on site like this to be dated to more than +/- 40-50 years. So I’m afraid that “Early Roman” sinks the piano man’s theory. As does “Hellenic” or “Hasmonean”. That’s why he is so desperate to redate everything so that it is “Middle Roman” or later, otherwise his theory collapses. He knows this, even if you don’t.

          “Your “world class archaeologists” chose not to carbon date the lamps when those were found which raised eyebrows at the time.”

          Gosh! It “raised eyebrows at the time” did it? Okay – where. Whose “eyebrows” were “raised”? What are you basing this on? Citations and quotes please.

          “It is a cheap standard method she chose not to do without explanation.”

          No carbon dating is “cheap”, so that is nonsense. Nor is it a ‘standard method” – it’s actually rare (precisely because it’s not cheap). You can’t “carbon date” a ceramic lamp anyway, given that they are not made from an organic material. You could date the soot from such a lamp if (i) there is any and (ii) there is enough of it to provide sufficient material. This is very, very rare – I can find only one example of it being done. This is because lamps are so plentiful on ancient sites and are usually easily dated by style and find location or stratigraphy. And who is “she”? The lamps in question were found by a range of people over about 80 years. So what the hell are you talking about? You now seem to be just making stuff up.

          “The coins are also weird case. Those were omitted from the draft report by your “world class archaeologists””

          If you are referring to the brief interim summary Alexandre kindly shared with Salm by email in 2006, it clearly mentions “worn coins” among the finds. It doesn’t specify what these coins were because (i) they were still being examined by Berman and (ii) it’s a summary. Then in 2012 Alexandre and Berman do detail what they are and somehow Salm manufactures a conspiracy theory out of this perfectly normal and explicable series of events.

          “15 years ago newspapers were full of Alexandre linking her excavation to Jesus’ First Miracle. Again eye browns were raised when Jewish media published that Israel Government Tourist Corporation gave over $1M and she just happened to find a perfect tourist destination near between Nazareth and Capernaum.”

          Really? Whose “eye browns” were raised? And why? Finding large wine jars at one of the sites considered to be Cana is going to be obviously newsworthy.

          “People were also surprised that no carbon dating were made of the objects (why?).”

          What “people”? Cites and quotes please. These “people” can’t have been archaeologists or even anyone with a clue, since you can’t carbon date a wine jar. So what the hell are you talking about?

          “You don’t have to be an archaeologists or conspiracy theorists to point out the fallacy of the claim that Jesus’ miracle happened there – just point out what the link from Cana excavation to Jesus is!”

          Given that Alexandre is a Jew, she pretty obviously doesn’t believe the miracle actually occurred. In those reports she is just saying the site was, in her opinion, the place where the story of that miracle was set.

          “This “world class archaeologists” must be the best as she always find artifacts related to Jesus if Government/Municipality tourism sponsors her a large sum of money.”

          You keep making this claim but still haven’t backed it up with … anything. Now would be a good time to do so.

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          1. “You have a very strange idea about how precise archaeological dating can be.”
            I said nothing about that. This is just your own projection.

            “No carbon dating is “cheap”, so that is nonsense. Nor is it a ‘standard method” ”
            It’s around 1000 dollars and if you try to do it for an artifact linked to the creator of our universe, many universities do it for you free. Any lamp that has burned something for awhile has a good change having enought residue inside or outside to be carbon dated. At least it should have been tried.

            “Finding large wine jars at one of the sites considered to be Cana is going to be obviously newsworthy.”
            Nope. I never said that. It was newsworthy because an archaeologists managed to link wine jars to a supernatural event by the creator of our universe. Truly a remarkable study.

            “Given that Alexandre is a Jew, she pretty obviously doesn’t believe the miracle actually occurred. In those reports she is just saying the site was, in her opinion, the place where the story of that miracle was set.”
            I don’t know what Alexandre believes. Many Jews believe prophets like Jesus did miracles. She wasn’t “just” saying…

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          2. “I said nothing about that. This is just your own projection.”

            Nonsense. Again – archaeology often means we can’t be more precise about the date of a site’s habitation than within a margin of decades. This is why to keep his silly theory afloat, Salm has to reject, re-date or otherwise dismiss all artefacts earlier than the Middle Roman Period. He had a hard enough time trying to do that when he brought out his 2008 book. His problem is that reality keeps slapping him in the face and new artefects and sites keep being found that don’t fit his a priori conclusion. This is why the fool has had to resort to conspiracy theory.

            “Any lamp that has burned something for awhile has a good change having enought residue inside or outside to be carbon dated. At least it should have been tried.”

            Why? No-one is disputing the dating of those lamps to the Early Roman Period except this clown from Oregon. And I notice your claims that the fact these unremarkable lamps were not carbon dated “raised eyebrows at the time” has quietly disappeared from your weird comments. Because that is garbage.

            “I don’t know what Alexandre believes. Many Jews believe prophets like Jesus did miracles. “

            So, if we’ve got this straight, this Jewish archaeologist is faking the finds and dating of multiple sites because she believes in Jesus’ miracles and also wants to get millions of dollars in funding. Or something. And, somehow, she has managed to get expert collaborators like Ariel Berman and various people at the Israeli Antiquities Authority along with foreign archaeologists like Ken Dark to help her in this fraud. Is that really what you’re claiming? Who else is in on this conspiracy? The Russians? Trump? Aliens? How deep does this all go?!

            This guy is hilarious.

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          3. Tim: “You have a very strange idea about how precise archaeological dating can be”
            Jon: “I said nothing about that. This is just your own projection”
            Tim: “Nonsense”
            Jon: I still haven’t said anything about how precise archaeological dating can be, yet you keep on making stuff up.

            “His problem is that reality keeps slapping him in the face and new artefects and sites keep being found that don’t fit his a priori conclusion”
            The problem is that nothing found in Nazareth can be reliable dated to 5 BC and they did not even try to carbon date items

            “No-one is disputing the dating of those lamps to the Early Roman Period except this clown from Oregon”
            But the real issues is are those lamps from 5 BC early Roman Period or 70 AD early Roman period.

            “And I notice your claims that the fact these unremarkable lamps were not carbon dated “raised eyebrows at the time” has quietly disappeared from your weird comments. Because that is garbage”
            Why are you so afraid/against getting more precise data? If you are convinced that Nazareth existed 5 BC why don’t you want those dated?

            “if we’ve got this straight, this Jewish archaeologist is faking the finds and dating of multiple sites because she believes in Jesus’ miracles and also wants to get millions of dollars in funding.”
            I didn’t say that. You keep making your own straw man?

            You forgot to answer – How do you think archaeologists can to link wine jars to a supernatural event by the creator of our universe?

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          4. “I still haven’t said anything about how precise archaeological dating can be,”

            You’ve said some nonsense about the bow-spout lamps not being “evidence of Nazareth existing 5 BC”, so I’ve explained to you that they are evidence Nazareth was settled in the Early Roman Period and that is enough. But it seems you still don’t understand.

            “The problem is that nothing found in Nazareth can be reliable dated to 5 BC”

            Multiple archaeologists have found multiple finds in several different sites that they all date to the Hellenic, Hasmonean and Early Roman Periods. The Piano Man’s weak attempts at making out these dates are not “reliable” have convinced no archaeologists at all. So either (a) all of these archaeologists are incompetent idiots, (b) all of them are frauds involved in a complex conspiracy or (c) the biased, unqualified, piano tuner in Oregon is wrong. Apparently you believe (b) and can’t understand why anyone with a clue would see the answer is (c).

            “Why are you so afraid/against getting more precise data?”

            “Afraid”? I’m just explaining to you why no-one bothered to carbon date the lamp soot. But you keep dodging my request that you back up your “raised eyebrows” comment. What seems to be the problem?

            “I didn’t say that. You keep making your own straw man?”

            Oh, okay. So how about you explain exactly what you are saying Alexandre has done here and who else is involved? Put up or shut up.

            “You forgot to answer – How do you think archaeologists can to link wine jars to a supernatural event by the creator of our universe?”

            As I and at least one other person has already answered – ‘by referring to the place where the story about that was set, not to the place where any such event actually took place”.

            Now please answer the questions above. I’ve patiently indulged your weak sneering and dodging for a couple of days now, but my tolerance is coming to an end. Bad faith trolls don’t last long around here and you are on the brink of being sent to the spam file.

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          5. “You’ve said some nonsense about the bow-spout lamps not being “evidence of Nazareth existing 5 BC”, so I’ve explained to you that they are evidence Nazareth was settled in the Early Roman Period and that is enough”
            Early Roman Period lasted to 70AD and I want to know the truth if those lamps can be dated to 5BC.

            “Multiple archaeologists have found multiple finds in several different sites that they all date to the Hellenic, Hasmonean and Early Roman Periods”
            I looked at those coin finding from the source you mentioned and none of them can be dated around 5 BC;
            “From Bagatti’s excavations in Nazareth 4 coins were found, all Byzantine (mid-fourth to early fifth century) and 2 coins from the vicinity: one Late Roman (the earliest coin, mid-third century) and one Byzantine (late fifth to early sixth century).”
            “More than 60 other coins from the Islamic to Mamluk Period were unearthed in the 1955 excavations”
            “165 coins were uncovered by Yardenna Alexandre in the 1997–1998 excavations at Mary’s Well, Nazareth. The coins were overwhelmingly Mamluk, but also included a few Hellenistic, Hasmonean, Early Roman, Byzantine, Umayyad and Crusader coins (Alexandre, forthcoming [2007])”

            Coins have not been published of course. If there were a single piece of archeological evidence of 15BC- 5AD that would have been a front line news, but nothing so far. Only vague Early Roman Period…

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          6. “I want to know the truth if those lamps can be dated to 5BC.”

            No. Something like a lamp can’t be dated with that level of precision. Even carbon dating, which you seem to be obsessed with, has a error margin of decades.

            “I looked at those coin finding from the source you mentioned and none of them can be dated around 5 BC;”

            Wrong. There are coins from just before 5 BC and others from just after. This adds to the other evidence that Nazareth was inhabited in the period Salm claims it wasn’t.

            “If there were a single piece of archeological evidence of 15BC- 5AD that would have been a front line news”

            Why? And we DO have artefacts from that timeframe – in the coins, in the ceramics and the lamp finds.

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          7. “Something like a lamp can’t be dated with that level of precision.”
            Irrelevant. It would be enough if 5BC would be withing margin or error. I’m not sure if you understand how dating results are presented.

            “There are coins from just before 5 BC and others from just after.”
            I didn’t see that in the report. Can you please let me know which coins you mean in that report?

            “And we DO have artefacts from that timeframe [15BC- 5AD]”
            Not true. None of the artifacts have been dated in that time frame. Some of “Early Roman Period” which could be much later.

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          8. ” It would be enough if 5BC would be withing margin or error. I’m not sure if you understand how dating results are presented.”

            I’m very clear on that thanks. It’s precisely because the margin of error is so wide that carbon dating doesn’t really help you. And it would only be applied if there was some uncertainty among archaeologists about the date of these finds. There isn’t.

            “I didn’t see that in the report. . Can you please let me know which coins you mean in that report?”

            They are the ones listed by Berman on page 107 under the very clear heading “The Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine Periods”. It’s the very first page of the numismatic chapter, so it’s bizarre that you somehow “didn’t see” it. Try opening your eyes.

            “Not true. None of the artifacts have been dated in that time frame.”

            That is simply wrong. You and the Piano Tuner may have decided you don’t like that dating, but the actual archaeologists disagree with you. Unlike fanatics, we are going with what the actual archaeologists say.

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        2. There is little need to augment Tim’s thorough ownership of this subthread, but I want to say something about the notion of a “1000” dollar test being “cheap” and therefore a worthy investment for a little speck of lamp-black on a shard of ceramic. One grand is not cheap for an archaeologist. Archaeologists are working stiffs who scrape together their beer money like anyone else. Given the choice of doing new work to advance a project, or asking for a redundant test to confirm an uncontroversial piece of a past interpretation (also with a margin of error), I personally would always elect to take the former route. That 1000 dollars is better spent on any number of things than this. I don’t speak for everyone, but I suspect most working professional archaeologists would agree with me.

          The reason Tim only found one example of such a test in the past literature is likely related to the specific circumstances of that particular object (e.g. a large pure soot sample, or some pressing question or important ambiguity). C-14 dating is useful precisely for objects which cannot be pinned down by less expensive means.

          That is wasteful and unnecessary where stylistic dating is precise. This is especially true with ceramic coated with trace evidence of burnt olive oil surrounded by a matrix of organic material which could easily include any number of sources of contamination. A professional opinion of “Early Roman” period, is cheaper and better than a radiometric date that may have been influenced by the adjacent bodily waste of a burrowing rodent. The thousand dollars you spend cannot be refunded when inconclusive results are obtained, as they often are.

          Also, see:

          https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180605112057.htm

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    2. @Jon:
      ‘For full disclosure it would also be worth mentioning the millions Yardena Alexandre’s team received from Israel Government Tourist Corporation and Nazareth Municipality turism support.’

      OK, I’ll bite. Why do you feel it’s worth mentioning that she was funded by these groups?

      Given the tone of your comment, it seems you think there’s something nefarious going on. What is it you’re suspecting? I mean, is the implication here supposed to be that you think they’re trying to bribe her to come up with a particular finding, or something? If so, what on earth is supposed to be their motive?

      I mean… even apart from the fact that only a tiny number of people even believe Salm’s claims or care, surely the people who are willing to believe that the Bible could be wrong about something as basic as the town where Jesus was born are exactly the sort of people who aren’t going to want to go visit that town as a tourist site, so it’s not as though Salm’s theories are going to be impacting on the tourist industry. So, have you got some motive in mind that I’m not thinking of that would make this insinuation make sense? Why do you feel the funding is worth mentioning?

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      1. It is worth mentioning who funds scientific investigation to declare a potential conflict of interest and it is a standard part of science and required for peer review. People should know if coal company funded climate study or if tobacco company funded cigarette health study.

        Re nefarious: How would an archaeologists know if a supernatural event happend on particual location 2000 years ago (Jesus’ first miracle)?

        “So, have you got some motive in mind that I’m not thinking of that would make this insinuation make sense? Why do you feel the funding is worth mentioning?”
        I don’t know what motives are. I was in India 21 September 1995 and saw how Ganesh shrines suddenly become permanent busy meeting places and tourist attractions. It benefited many people with different motives.

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        1. Apparently you don’t understand the difference between “a a supernatural event happend on a particular location” and “the place where the story of that miracle was set”.
          Let me guess – at all costs you want to accuse archeologists of making christian propaganda. You won’t let pesky and complicated details like the margin errors of carbon dating (and all forms of radiometry) get in your way.
          Silly guy.

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          1. Apparently you try to make straw men of what I understand.

            Pesky and complicated details like the margin errors of carbon dating are not a problem because artifacts were not carbon dated. Maybe you didn’t know that, but at least you go in your ad hominem.

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          2. Hint 1: direct quoting by definition is not a strawman.
            Hint 2: by far not every insult is an ad hominem.
            Hint 3: when you accuse someone of a logical fallacy the burden of proof is yours, preferably by direct quoting. You don’t even try.

            “the margin errors of carbon dating are not a problem because artifacts were not carbon dated.”
            You don’t make sense anymore – you are the one who demands carbon dating and hence will run into this problem if you get things your way.
            Thanks for undermining your own position more effective than I could (and again – that’s a mere insult, not an ad hominem, because it’s not directed against you as a person).

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          3. Hint 1. Neither quote was from me. But the strawman was not about quotes, it was your claim about me
            Hint 2. So don’t name call people online and you don’t get called out for ad hominem
            Hint 3. I pointed out the fallacy of people claiming link where no evidence was shown. Maybe you could enlight me and tell me how a miracle can be link to an archeological finding. So far nobody has been able to do that but claims go on and on.

            Don’t you think it is strange that Christians don’t want to carbon date these and when people suggest dating those Christians like you and Tim get all upset. Why are Christians so afraid the truth.

            “you are the one who demands carbon dating and hence will run into this problem if you get things your way.”
            Yes – I do want to know the date of these lamps. No – any dating is not a problem to my. Why would it?

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          4. “Don’t you think it is strange that Christians don’t want to carbon date these and when people suggest dating those Christians like you and Tim get all upset.”

            You keep making these weird claims and then failing to back them up. You’ve been challenged several times now to back up your claim that some “eyebrows were raised” when these lamps were not carbon dated. You’ve failed to meet that challenge. Now you’re claiming “Christians don’t want to carbon date these [lamps]” and that “Christians …. get all upset” when this is suggested. So, will you fail to back these fantasies up as well? I’m going to guess you will.

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          5. You seem to be so against carbon dating. Makes me wonder why. You incorrectly thought that it is not cheap when actually it is or in this high profile cases probably free. You don’t seem to know that it is actually a normal to do those in when accurate dating cannot be otherwise established. You didn’t know that ceramic lamps often have burned organic residue because lamp’s heat creates that and you would have a good chance to be able to date these lamps. Are you against carbon dating because you are not familiar with it?

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          6. Jon, did you bother to read the FAQ? If you did, you wouldn’t have to wonder why Tim opposes carbon dating. The “About The Author” clearly states that Tim is a devout protestant Christian with Gnostic leanings. Obviously he opposes carbon dating because organic material is a product of the devil.

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        2. So basically the Jewish run Israeli archaeological department is engaging in deceptive Christian apologetics in order to support an early first century date for Nazareth. Gotcha that makes a lot of sense.

          And this vast conspiracy was uncovered by a piano repairman who never once did any archaeological work in his life. Seems rational.

          I think I can end this dispute though. I talked with my garbage man about this, he happens to be Sikh. He thinks Nazareth existed in the early first century.

          My heating repair man came to similar conclusions and is agnostic.

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          1. Jon, you sound like a flat-earther and all the conspiracy nuts on the “History” channel talking about Aliens invented technology and hiding in governments. It never cease amazed me how to the loonies of these conspiracy theories need to double down ever more when the evidence doesn’t meet their ridiculous conclusions. You have demonstrated how conspiracy theorists operate and how the bunch of you view anyone and everyone who disagree is part of a worldwide conspiracy to cover up the truth or lie to gain money. Because obviously that must be it. It can’t obviously mean they are actually telling the truth. Nope. That is insane….

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          2. I was just thinking how much this exchange with Jon reminds me of any number of debates with YECs I recall from talk.origins: the same obtuseness, the same inability to question a cherished notion, the same flailing about. It makes one despair of human rationality.

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    3. Googling ‘Nazareth Municipality tourism support’ doesn’t pull up information on any organization, but it does lead to articles that mention Nazareth being a city where the Palestinian Arab population outnumbers the Jewish population. Apparently Salm’s discoveries are so threatening that some Israelis and Palestinians have united to discredit his findings. If that’s the case, let’s hope Salm keeps writing about Nazareth; every article brings us closer to peace in the holy land.

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    4. Just because a town existed there doesn’t mean it was called “Nazareth” back then. Could be like Truth or Consequences New Mexico, a name change was financially advantageous to get the tourist money from early Christian pilgrims.

      1. Yes, that’s possible. But many things are merely possible. Unless there is some evidence to indicate this happened, why would we decided it did?

  3. It is a certain delight to read your critiques. I myself am Christian but also scientifically educated so that I can see the virtue of your methods and the value of their results.
    Thanks for sharing this enlightening articles and giving us tools to avoid misinformation.

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  4. “this fact was awkward for the gospel writers in several ways”
    Again I’ve the opportunity to point out that a historical Jesus provides more opportunities to criticize christianity than a mythical one. The latter fails to achieve its most important goal.

    “I do not agree with all the theories of either Salm, Kennard, or Laupot”, which makes sense, given they are all mutually exclusive.”
    And this allows me to stress that JMs don’t have a method to reach consensus on anything. Of course this is because their methods all are unreliable.

    “Two Source Hypothesis”
    I would not call it a hypothesis, because in the first place it’s a matter of definition. The Q-document is everything Mattheus and Lucas have in common but cannot be found in Marcus. If there is a simple, likely JM explanation for this material I yet have to meet it.
    Of course, Jesus coming from Capernaum iso Nazareth (or Bethlehem) still would mean that he was historical. Did JMs want to be coherent they would not use this objection. The same for etymological objections. Even if Jesus the Nazarene does not refer to the town, but to say some obscure sect or some title this still means he was historical.

    “not robust enough to sustain their conclusions”
    Are you in the mood for understatements today? The examples you gave (Kennard, Guignebert) all are variants on a historical Jesus and show that professional historians are capable of reaching consensus. A JM who uses such variants do the same as creationists who always complain that “science always changes, hence evolution must be false”.

    “some bits and pieces of ideas that can be cobbled together to fit their agenda”
    On the topic of what Nazarene means I maintain that they fail as usual even to reach this modest goal. You won’t be surprised that I don’t understand the relevance of the historicity of the town Nazareth for the historicity of Jesus. Redating some fossil another (which happens all the time) doesn’t affect evolution theory either. Still – Rene Salm, the Ben Stein (of Expelled, No Intelligence Allowed fame) of JM.

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  5. I’m not sure I would characterise Nazareth as ‘low lying.’ Modern Nazareth is a confusing place, because it is divided into three distinct areas: (1) new Nazareth, mostly dating from the Naqba in the 1940s and built in the valley (2) Old Nazareth, which is charming and picturesque and built on a steep hillside (3) Nazareth Illit, which is an officially separate Jewish municipality (Nazareth itself being dominated by Muslims) on a hill next to it, joined by an escarpment that has several posh hotels built on top so you get a stupendous view across the city.

    That’s not to say it’s necessarily ‘mountainous’ either (the Rockies it ain’t) but in the Roman period most settlements would have been well above the valley floor. All other considerations aside that was where the water was (the great wadi of Nazareth, which Salm also seems to be ignorant of, flowed in winter from the springs but didn’t get far before disappearing).

    It also has several cliffs in it, although at least one of them is modern and none of them are especially high. Still, as the writer of Luke never visited it, that need not be a significant issue.

    Salm claims he has visited it, but he is so ignorant of its basic layout I will admit I wonder a bit about that claim, especially given he’s so dishonest about everything else.

    1. I didn’t say it was “low lying”. I said it was in the lowland part of Galilee, as opposed to the more mountainous area of Upper Galilee that Kuhnen, from his examples, was clearly talking about.

  6. This post relies heavily on the “Criterion of Embarrassment.” But that criterion for determining what is historical or not, has been recently attacked by say Chris Keith et alia..

    The theory was that if some assertion in the Bible seemed wildly implausible, or contradictory, then it must be true, or historical. Since writers felt compelled to include it, in spite of obvious problems.

    But think about, say, the larger consequences of a theory which insists that if a given assertion seems wildly contradicted, then it must be true.

    1. “This post relies heavily on the “Criterion of Embarrassment.””

      Ummmm, no. There’s nothing particularly “embarrassing” about Jesus coming from Nazareth. If anything, the idea that Jesus came from Nazareth comes closest to the “Criterion of Dissimilarity”. But those criteria are more about what sayings of Jesus may or may not be “authentic”. What we are talking about here is a more general principle in historical analysis – if an element in a narrative seems to be something the writer is working hard to explain or accommodate, it is most likely historical.

      “But think about, say, the larger consequences of a theory which insists that if a given assertion seems wildly contradicted, then it must be true.”

      Pardon? That’s not even close to what is being argued here. Try less straw-manning.

    2. That criteria is not really about contradictions but rather how some details may cause the author embarrassment or difficulty. An example would be when Mark records Jesus healing a blind man. Instead of him being healed instantaneously, Jesus has to pray twice for the man before he is healed completely. If Mark was making things up and was trying to portray Jesus in a particular way I.e the great healer, it’ unlikely he would have included such an account. But he is simply telling what happened. I think used on its own a single criteria has limited use but taken cumulatively with other criteria the impact is substantial. But yes other scholars disagree.

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  7. Tim, thanks for the hard work and time you put into these. I look forward to your blogs coming out (and, for the record, I’m a Christian). They’re much appreciated

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  8. “Salm’s armchair investigations swung into action again and it was not long before he was able to confidently dismiss the dating of the structure and also decide that it was a “winemaking installation” and not a house at all (see NazarethGate, pp.178-245).”

    Let’s say Salm is right here and it was just a winemaking installation. Wouldn’t that prove that at least someone was inhabiting Nazareth at the time? And I would presume this winemaker wasn’t just living out there in the wilderness.

  9. “NazarethGate: Quack Archaeology, Holy Hoaxes and the Invented Town of Jesus”…If this man won’t learn the value of more intensive research, he could at least learn the value of the Oxford comma.

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  10. Hi Tim

    Sorry this isnt related but I thought Id relay what a fellow atheist (you not me) said when I directed them to your site from the Guardian (perhaps I shouldnt have said ‘unbiased’ as we are all biased):

    “Unbiased? A site set up by someone who claims to be an atheist, to debunk things atheists say.

    Piss off.”

    Oh dear.

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    1. Looks like another so-called rationalist who fails at reason. A site can have an aim and still be objective. But you’re right that no-one is completely unbiased and I would never claim to be as a result. That’s why I try pretty hard to consider all respectable scholarly positions and present the consensus views or, if I can’t, present the scholarly disputes as evenhandedly as I can. But the “who claims to be an atheist” bit just shows that this person is simply reaching for anything they can grasp at to dismiss things they don’t want to hear. And that is pretty biased. And irrational. Still at least you tried.

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  11. So let me see if I got this narrative straight….

    Nazareth existed before the first century and it existed after the first century but it didn’t exist during the first century. That is a rather unlikely position to take. Not impossible but rather unlikely.

    So why did the people of Nazareth leave before the first century? Why did they return after the first century? There is no particular reason for this happening.

    We have documents from the first century referencing Nazareth . ( Synoptics, John) . We have first century artifacts and coins found in Nazareth. That should sink the idea Nazareth was unsettled in the first century AD.

    Anyone with an ounce of sense should realize this is a continuous occupation.

    Seriously what more do these Salmites want? Short of a time machine what would satisfy them?

    1. “Nazareth existed before the first century and it existed after the first century but it didn’t exist during the first century”

      Not quite. As I noted in my article, Salm claims ancient Nazareth was inhabited prior to the Assyrian Conquest, but the valley was then abandoned for centuries and only settled “towards the end of the first century of our era, following the momentous cataclysm of the First Jewish War” (Salm, The Myth of Nazareth, p. 207). This is why he has to find ways to dismiss any artefects from teh Hellenic, Hasmonean and Early Roman Periods, by claiming they are later or just alleging outright fraud and a vast conspiracy.

      “We have first century artifacts and coins found in Nazareth. That should sink the idea Nazareth was unsettled in the first century AD.”

      He just pushes them into the second half of the first century and then says that this sustains his thesis.

      “Seriously what more do these Salmites want? Short of a time machine what would satisfy them?”

      I suspect even then these fanatics would find a way to cling to their devout beliefs. They are fanatics.

      1. So basically there is two conspiracies going on here. We have a conspiracy among archaeologist and New Testament scholars as the Book of Mark would be dated before the end of the first century. It seriously takes faith to believe this. Why would people abandon a valley for centuries anyways?

        1. “We have a conspiracy among archaeologist and New Testament scholars as the Book of Mark would be dated before the end of the first century”

          Sure, but he accepts that Nazareth did exist in the first century – but only after 70 AD. Apparently it then sprang into being fully formed, like Athena from the forehead of Zeus, complete with high status kokhim tombs etc.

          “Why would people abandon a valley for centuries anyways?”

          He thinks they left in the disruptions of the Assyrian invasion. As to why he thinks it took them centuries to settle there again I have no idea.

          1. So according to Salm Nazareth was founded just when Mark was written; what a fortunate thesis saving coincidence as if he placed Nazareth a decade later he would need to explain why a town from say 80AD is mentioned in a document dated to around 70 AD.

            So by good fortune Nazareth just started to exist when Mark was written but this begs the question; why would Mark just happen to pick this town to be Jesus’ hometown and why would Mark present it as a developed town when it was newly formed.

            So to sum it up…..

            Nazareth was abandoned for the first time during the Assyrian invasion, and no one thought to resettle that area afterwards. Did they forget it existed??

            Then after the First Jewish Revolt people suddenly decided it was okay to settle in this valley again.

            The town sprang forth in such a rapid way that the author of Mark noticed it and decided to use it as Jesus’ birthplace.

            All the evidence for Nazareth being occupied during the Hellenistic and Early Roman times is simply an archaeological conspiracy , being done by Jews, to support Christian apologetics.

            This was all determined by a piano repairman who has no formal training in archaeology or history and we should take his word over professional archaeologists.

            Have I essentially got this now??

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          2. @Kris: if you’re really are interested in such conspiracy nonsense I can recommend you www. jesusneverexisted. com. In the search field you can put Nazareth and you’ll find an article titled Nazareth- The Town that Theology Built. I hope you have a stronger stomach than me.

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  12. Thank you again, Tim. I’m reminded of Channel Awesome on YouTube where one of his introductory lines is, “I remember it, so you don’t have to.”
    Or in this case you have to deal with the incredibly incompetent so the rest of us don’t have to.
    Regards.

  13. Wonderful article.

    My favorite “exegetical gymnastic” attempt to fix the dating discrepancy of gLuke is Vardaman’s use of mysterious “microletters” (miniature letters on Roman coins including anachronistic characters like “J”). According to Vardaman, the letters indicate there were actually two governors of the same name (Quirinus), allowing us to fudge the dating of Luke.

    https://badarchaeology.wordpress.com/2012/12/29/jerry-vardamans-microletters-on-roman-coins/

    I encountered this work cited recently in a fundamentalist book on the historical Jesus…

    1. Yes, Vardaman was, amazingly, able to “see” all kinds of things on coins that just happened, by remarkable coincidence, to confirm things that fitted his conservative Christian ideas. Strangely, no-one else could detect these “microletters” that, to everyone else, just looked like … scratches.

      I recently took time out from my debunking of bad history by atheists to debunk some of the apologetic gymastics over the census of Quirinius by a notorious Twitter Christian HERE and, in reply to her response, HERE. The lengths to which fundamentalists will go to twist or simply the evidence they need to make their a priori ideas work make Mythicists look reasonable.

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      1. Tim Nazareth is the town that theology built. Empress Helena, Constantine’s mother, had recently become Christian and made a pilgrimage to northern Israel to search for relics of Christ. There was nothing there except what she was told was “Mary’s well”. Helena ordered a church built over it. Some time later, Egaria of Spain did her pilgrimage. She was told that a nearby cave was where Jesus and Mary and Joseph lived. A church was built over that. That’s the 4th century. Before that, the only true evidence of anything there is one or two extended families doing some farming. Most of the evidence consists of graves before the time of Jesus. There was no town of Nazareth. Paul mentions Jesus over 200 times in his letters, but never mentions Nazareth. Oragen lived 30 miles away, in Caesaria, and stated he had no idea where Nazareth was. Matthew substituted Nazareth for Nazarene, which has NOTHING to do with Nazareth. A Nazarite is someone who has accepted a holy vow, also nothing to do with Nazareth. No archeologist of historian states otherwise. It’s ALL fiction.

        1. Oh dear. Where to begin?

          Empress Helena, Constantine’s mother, had recently become Christian and made a pilgrimage to northern Israel to search for relics of Christ …

          That pilgrim associations with specific parts of the site with their belief in the gospels were probably totally fanciful doesn’t matter much. The fact remains that the site was inhabited in Jesus’ time and was attested by the name Nazareth since at least the second century.

          Before that, the only true evidence of anything there is one or two extended families doing some farming. Most of the evidence consists of graves before the time of Jesus.

          People in this period didn’t live in separate farming homesteads – they lived in villages. So “two extended families doing some farming” = a village. Sorry. Not that your “one or two extended families” is based on any actual evidence anyway. And Salm says the grave date to just after the time of Jesus. Now we have you claiming it was just before. You people really need to get your story straight.

          Paul mentions Jesus over 200 times in his letters, but never mentions Nazareth.

          Paul doesn’t mention many biographical details of Jesus at all, so this is hardly surprising. Where exactly should he have mentioned Nazareth and why? When will you people learn how to construct a valid argument from silence?

          Oragen lived 30 miles away, in Caesaria, and stated he had no idea where Nazareth was.

          Citation please.

          M

          atthew substituted Nazareth for Nazarene, which has NOTHING to do with Nazareth. A Nazarite is someone who has accepted a holy vow, also nothing to do with Nazareth.

          Cool story. Strange then that no source ever refers to Jesus as a Nazarite or depicts him in ways that fit the idea he was one. And why did the writer of gMatt make this strange change anyway? This is just baseless hand-waving.

          1. Apparently the author of Luke made this strange change too and he too forget to describe Jesus as a Nazarene.

          2. Yes, it’s amazing how many people like “Mega Striker” somehow magically “know” that this change was made despite Jesus actually being referred to, described or even hinted at being a Nazarite by precisely … nobody.

          3. Tim there is no mention of an actual place called Nazareth. It is very telling that no one mentions Nazareth. There is no reference to Nazareth being any known location until the 4th century.

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          4. Garbage. The Caesarea Inscription mentions it in the early second century. And Sextus Julius Africanus mentioned it in the c. 220s. Besides, why would the early Christians atrribute Jesus’ origin to a non-existent town rather than to an actual place? You are talking gibberish. Go away.

        2. Um four first century documents mention Nazareth Mega. They are Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. This stuff makes nonbelievers look stupid.

  14. Another point to make (if I may). I would note that gJohn (4:44) also cites the “prophet without honor in his home”, and is sometimes regarded (e.g. by Crossan and the Jesus Seminar in the seminal book Five Gospels) as the ONLY solid historical kernel in the entire Gospel According to John. So that would appear to corroborate the central importance of that scene in early Nazarene thought.

  15. Thanks for another informative and enjoyable article, Tim. I also enjoyed your recent twitter stoush with the immensely annoying Christian apologist, SJ Thomason.

  16. The fact that there is no contemporary evidence for Jesus is very suspicious.the fact that there is zero contemporary evidence of a historical Jesus and even writers who oppose the Mythicist position (such as Bart Ehrman) admit this. The earliest reference to Jesus is Philo and he is writing about Jesus, son of god, light of the world, agent of creation (sound familiar?). Philo’s work was in wide circulation (he came from a rich family and could afford to have his books copied and distributed). Hence was have a docetic version of Jesus before the first reference to a Euhemeristic Jesus in Mark (written after AD 70). It is just possible that some faith healer existed who acted as the seed for later stories but I think that the balance of evidence stands against that.

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    1. “The fact that there is no contemporary evidence for Jesus is very suspicious.”

      No it isn’t. We have no contemporary attestation for any other early first century Jewish preacher, prophet or Messianic claimant, so it makes no sense to expect any for this one. So that is a stupid argument.

      “even writers who oppose the Mythicist position (such as Bart Ehrman) admit this. “

      They don’t “admit” it – see above. We would not expect any contemporary references to someone like Jesus. That’s why only the more stupid and naive Mythicists use this dumb argument – the smarter ones know it’s a stinker. See Jesus Mythicism 3: “No Contemporary References to Jesus” for details on why what you’re trying to argue here simply doesn’t work

      “The earliest reference to Jesus is Philo and he is writing about Jesus, son of god, light of the world, agent of creation (sound familiar?).”

      Garbage. Philo makes no reference to any Jesus who is “son of god, light of the world, agent of creation”. That’s a nonsensical argument by Carrier that only fools people who have never actually read Philo and have no idea how Jewish exegesis worked.

      “Hence was have a docetic version of Jesus before the first reference to a Euhemeristic Jesus in Mark (written after AD 70).”

      Total nonsense. Please don’t come here peddling second hand crap from Carrier and Co. – it won’t end well for you.

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      1. We do have information of a great many people from the first century, we know that Pilate and John the Baptist existed because we have contemporary accounts that refer to them. We know the stories of many would be preachers and faith healers of that period because authors of the time mention them. We have birth records of many people, Roman tax records, trading accounts. The first century is actually one of the best documented centuries in ancient history. Given how Jesus is described in the gospels it is very improbable that no one at the time should mention him. Not even any non biblical evidence until the beginning of the first century.

        Have you read the works of Philo? Have you heard of the earliness of the first docetic writings? In Philo’s writings Philo wrote about a pre-Christian belief in a celestial Jesus and calls him the son of god, light of the world, agent of creation well before the time of the alleged ministry and death of Jesus. Given that we have such early records of the docetic interpretation and the early writings of Philo it is highly improbable that Christianity is based on a historical figure. It is much more probable, and much better fit to the evidence that the docetic version came first, Paul based his writings on that interpretation and the Euhemeristic version came later, adding one of many schism to the early Christian movement. This is why you have so many different t versions of Christianity, from the prosaic Ebionites at one end to the Ascension of Isaiah at the other. You have to admit. The lack of evidence is a gaping whole in the conjecture of a historical Jesus. It seems that such sources becoming euhemerised is the simpler explanation then the idea of a real, obscure, faith healers story somehow aligning with the Philoan/docetic tradition. The former requires fewer assumptions so I would consider Occam’s razor would favor the Mythicist position. I do not exclude the possibility that a historical Jesus existed, I just consider it unlikely.

        1. “We do have information of a great many people from the first century”

          We do. We just don’t have contemporary references to any first century Jewish preachers, prophets or Messianic claimants. As with Jesus, we know about all of the ones we are aware of from later, non-contemporary references, most of them quite brief. This is why your argument doesn’t work. It seems you didn’t even bother to read the detailed article I have written on why this argument is garbage. I suggest you do so.

          “we know that Pilate and John the Baptist existed because we have contemporary accounts that refer to them.”

          We have for Pilate, but he was much more prominent than some Jewish preacher. We have no contemporary account of John the Baptist. The only reference to him outside the NT is in Josephus Ant. XVIII and that was written decades after his death and so is not contemporary. You don’t seem to understand the source material.

          “We know the stories of many would be preachers and faith healers of that period because authors of the time mention them.”

          Not Jewish “would be preachers and faith healers”. None of them are attested by contemporary writers. Perhaps you don’t understand what the word “contemporary” means. Most of them, including the Baptist, are only known to us from Josephus. But given that Josephus also mentions Jesus at least once (Ant. XX.200) and possibly twice (depending on if any of Ant. XVIII.63-4 is genuine), we do have attestation of Jesus from a non-Christian source just a few decades after his time. Then we have him mentioned by Tacitus in Annals XV.44.

          “We have birth records of many people, Roman tax records, trading accounts. The first century is actually one of the best documented centuries in ancient history.”

          That’s nice. Unfortunately we don’t have much documentation on Jewish preachers and the few bits we do have are not contemporary. So we actually have about as much as we would expect for Jesus and rather more for him that we have for any other analogous Jewish preacher.

          “Given how Jesus is described in the gospels it is very improbable that no one at the time should mention him. “

          Which is probably a good argument against doing something as stupid as taking the “Jesus [as] described in the gospels” at naive face value. As I detail at length in the article on this topic that you clearly haven’t read, a critical reading of the gospels shows they clearly exaggerated his fame and impact. So we would not expect anyone to mention him at the time, especially given that other much more significant Jewish preacher-prophets (Athronges, the Egyptian, the Samaritan Prophet) made a much bigger impact and still didn’t get mentioned by any contemporary writers and got mentioned by no non-Jewish writers at all.

          “Have you read the works of Philo? Have you heard of the earliness of the first docetic writings?”

          Yes. And yes. Work from the assumption I am more than familiar with all of the relevant material and that I have read much more than you. That will save time.

          “In Philo’s writings Philo wrote about a pre-Christian belief in a celestial Jesus”

          Bullshit. Quote Philo mentioning any celestial JESUS celestial Jesus called the son of god, light of the world, agent of creation etc. No such reference in Philo exists. The rest of your comment is more Mythicist fantasy based on weak suppositions and text twisting. Do you really think I haven’t heard all this amateur hour crap before? Stop wasting our time with this garbage.

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    2. “I think that the balance of evidence stands against that”
      Except that no JM ever provided any evidence for a mythical Jesus. JMs only have wild speculations how one fictional character made it into four canonical Gospels plus Acts. JMs only argue, just like creationists argue against evolution theory. They use a “Mythical Lens” pretty much like YECers use their “Biblical Lens”. Hint: in science it’s not nearly enough to demonstrate that a theory is incorrect before we can reject it. You have to demonstrate, backed by evidence, that there is a better one too. Exactly like creationists JMs invariably skip the second part. X is false hence Y is correct is bad methodology.

      1. Our weird friend Scythe came back again with another long rant that was just the usual rehearsal of the same old failed Mythicist arguments, so he’s been consigned to the spam folder. This blog isn’t here to give boneheaded fanatics an venue to burble the usual boring failed nonsense.

  17. Well if Jesus was as described in the gospels then he would have been extremely noteworthy! We have the lives and fates of numerous would be jewish preachers, faith healers and ‘messiahs’ described by Josephus, and yet he never mentions Jesus. Surely if he had existed and made any impact at all then he would have attracted Josephus’s attentions. He delighted in describing these characters and seemed to relish in detail their dismiss. The fact that Josephus never mentions Jesus is a major problem for historicists. Other historians and chroniclers at the time who you would expect to mention Jesus do not.

    We also have are first New Testament writer Paul who never refers to an earthly life or ministry of Jesus. Paul is problematic as most of the documents ascribed to him are fake, those that are not are likely heavily altered over time and there seems to be a lack of any reference to Paul in contemporary records or even Christian ones until the mid 2nd century. Nowhere is there any actual evidence! Even Paul describes everything he know about Jesus coming by ‘revelation’. The whole thing is flimsy.

    We have Philo’s description of Jesus, son of god, agent of creation is in (circa 25 AD), then we also have the ascension of Isaiah and other docetic beliefs.

    1. “Well if Jesus was as described in the gospels then he would have been extremely noteworthy!”

      As I said and as I explained in the article you STILL haven’t read, it’s pretty clear he wasn’t as famous or significant “as described in the gospels” and it’s naive to read them as though he was. And we have examples of others who clearly were far more famous and significant and who still didn’t get mentioned in any contemporary sources. So that argument fails twice over. If you continue to repeat arguments I’ve already countered you will go straight to the spam file.

      “We have the lives and fates of numerous would be jewish preachers, faith healers and ‘messiahs’ described by Josephus, and yet he never mentions Jesus.”

      He does. Twice. As I’ve already told you. So, wrong.

      “Other historians and chroniclers at the time who you would expect to mention Jesus do not.”

      Such as who? Name one historian who mentions other Jewish preachers, prophets or Messianic claimants and yet don’t mention Jesus. Just one. Good luck.

      “We also have are first New Testament writer Paul who never refers to an earthly life or ministry of Jesus.”

      Wrong. He says Jesus was born as a human, of a human mother and born a Jew (Galatians 4:4). He repeats that he had a “human nature” and that he was a human descendant of King David (Romans 1:3) of of Abraham (Gal 3:16), of Israelites (Romans 9:4-5) and of Jesse (Romans 15:12). He refers to teachings Jesus made during his earthly ministry on divorce (1Cor. 7:10), on preachers (1Cor. 9:14) and on the coming apocalypse (1Thess. 4:15). He mentions how he was executed by earthly rulers (1Cor. 2:8) that he was crucified (1 Cor 1:23, 2:2, 2:8, 2 Cor 13:4) and that he died and was buried (1Cor 15:3-4).And he says he had an earthly, physical brother called James who Paul himself had met (Galatians 1:19). Do you really think we haven’t heard all these tired, failed Mythicist talking points before?

      “Even Paul describes everything he know about Jesus coming by ‘revelation’. “

      He does not say that at all.

      “We have Philo’s description of Jesus, son of god, agent of creation is in (circa 25 AD)”

      There is not such description of any “Jesus” in Philo. Don’t repeat this bullshit claim again. This reference in Philo DOES NOT EXIST.

      “then we also have the ascension of Isaiah”

      Which describes Jesus coming to earth and “dwelling among men”. So, you were saying?

      I think you’ve wasted enough of our time and patience.

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      1
      1. Did some blog somewhere tell it’s followers to do a drive by on you? We have more mythers coming around here then seems normal.

        1. Carrier posted one of her periodic rants about me yesterday. But otherwise no, the Nazareth myth thing tends to attract a particularly fanatical and rather dumb variety of Myther.

          1. Her??? Did Carrier get around to getting a sex change operation?? Does Carrier plan to sexual harass himself now 🙂

          2. Chuckle. Well, that would save him time. And at least then he would be making sexual advances on someone who actually find him devastatingly attractive.

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  18. https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/15203#comment-27633
    I would also like if you want me to make a rebuttal and reply to that comment from Carrier, since you know a lot about history, for example I have done my part refuting and seeing the fallacies of Richard Carrier for example, according to Richard Carrier Hitler was very Christian, however in his blog he contradicts himself because he puts a “Christian” quote from Hitler where he says “in case there is a god and a heaven” even if we rely on Hitler’s Christian quotes, that would make him agnostic, In addition, the consensus is that he was anti-clerical nihilist , in addition to the burning of bibles etc., so Carrier and other militant atheists are losing both sides.
    In addition, ironically, according to Richard, he investigate Hitler’s anti-clerical quotes and according to him, he concluded that a Christian close to Hitler wanted to make Hitler look bad by putting him as an atheist, however, a good historian who knows German as his mother tongue, He denied that, to begin with the alleged fake that Richard took it from his ass, since there is none of that.
    In the same way, Richard, like other atheists and racists, believe that by making the same point a lot they win the discussion no matter how wrong they are.

      1. Hitler was much more than “anti-clerical”. Any reading of what he said about the religion in private and what his closest followers recall and report on the subject show that he was anti-Christian.

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        1. He had (or at a certain point he developed) his own idea of an aryan Jesus, which was radically different from any previous Christian doctrine, but I think that if one doesn’t want to fall into No True Scotsman fallacy territory it should be recognized that it’s more complex than ‘Hitler was anti-Christian’.

          1
          1
          1. The Nazis developed a kind of Aryan Jesus as part of their “Positive Christianity” strategy to co-opt and neutralise the religion. Hitler does seem, as far as we can tell, to have had some idea of Jesus as a Aryan “fighter” against “the Jews”, but that is not incompatible with his general animus against Christianity per se. So, yes, while his views were “complex” in the sense that they were largely (like most of his ideas) garbled and incoherent, there is little doubt that he was anti-Christian.

    1. Thanks. But as I note every time I’m asked this question, the “Great Myths” series is being written with one eye on making those articles into book chapters one day. Nathan Johnstone’s The New Atheism, Myth, and History has already highlighted most of the historiographical problems with New Atheist history, but a book drawing on his work and debunking the main myths that New Atheists tend to present as history could still be useful. But work will be slow – I have a career, a busy life and other pastimes. This blog is a hobby.

    1. The article refers to the house I mention above. The Ken Dark in the article is the same one I mention giving Salm’s first book a very bad review and saying it’s nonsense.

      1. Hi Tim I wanted to ask you something. On one of your blogs I saw you use the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist as evidence that Jesus existed. But the only account that we have we have of a meeting between John and Jesus is in the gospels. I have actually come across mythicists who argue that the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist is actually evidence against a historical Jesus. I have heard mythicists argue that the cult of John the Baptist was a rival to the early Christian cults. By creating the myth that John considered Jesus his superior and successor then that cult would be diminished. So they argue that the baptism is actually evidence against a historical Jesus.

        1. By creating the myth that John considered Jesus his superior and successor then that cult would be diminished. So they argue that the baptism is actually evidence against a historical Jesus.

          That would work if we found John acknowledging Jesus as his superior in all of the gospels. But we don’t. We go from the earliest gospel, gMark, where John pays no attention to Jesus at all, to gMatt where the gMark story is given a very awkward spin to try to present the encounter as one between a forerunner and the actual Messiah. And then gJohn, where the whole baptism element is dropped completely and we have John proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah. This indicates an evolution from a baptism by Jesus by his spiritual superior to a much later and greatly changed depiction of their dynamic. That development does not fit with the Mythicist view and is more evidence that Mythicism is simply wrong.

          1. It’s funny though because I even heard this one Mythicist claim that many scholars think it’s likely that the baptism story was created to compete with the cult formed around John the Baptist by inventing a story that he baptized Jesus and declared him the messiah. Mythicists basically argue that the baptism story is fiction as part of a turf war among early sects. I have tried to explain to them how the gospel writers felt awkward about Jesus being baptized by a lesser prophet. But then of course the mythicists say that the baptism is only attested by the gospels which have little historical value. Mythicists even say that the logic of fabricating the baptism by John is obvious since the cult of John the Baptist would have been a rival to the early Christian cults, hence inventing a story of John acknowledging the superiority of Jesus would diminish the rival cult. So they basically argue that the baptism of Jesus makes perfect sense as a fake story due to the competition between the early Christian sects and the cult of John the Baptist.

          2. Kris makes an excellent point. However, Josephus seems pretty reliable on the issue John’s existence (the mythers can’t split hairs about it the way they do with Jesus references in Jos.), and the fact that he doesn’t roll together Jesus and John suggests they were indeed distinct contemporaneous movements in the region.

            Finally, the Mandaeans are a group of Gnostic Aramaic baptizers with roots in antiquity, who regard John as a prophet and Jesus as a heretical disciple. Their sect straddles the line (in certain ways) between Judaism and Christianity without corresponding to the particulars of either group. The fact that John figures so prominently in their traditions seems to validate the existence of an early independent group of disciples devoted to John which did not acknowledge the messianic claims of the Christians, in agreement with the indifference suggested by gMark.

        2. My question is why do the mythers concede John the Baptist existed when the historical evidence for him is less than Jesus. Maybe it has something to do with the fact John the Baptist has no relevance to modern society so their is no need to make him disappear. If that is correct then it shows how mytherism is not driven by logic but by contemporary issues.

          1. Well the only evidence we have for John the Baptist outside of the New Testament is Josephus. Josephus also does mention Jesus twice. But the problem is that the mythicists will usually try to argue that Josephus never actually mentioned Jesus at all and that both of the mentions of Jesus in Josephus were added to his works by Christian scribes.

          2. Seth, the Aramaic Mandaean scriptures (the Ginza, beginning late 2nd / early 3rd century) are non-Jewish, non-Christian traditions about Adam, Seth and John the Baptist (among others), which suggest that John was a real person and not merely a herald for Jesus. Although the Mandaean texts are slightly younger than the Christian traditions about John, they suggest an oral culture of reverence toward John that was not confined to the Jewish and Christian communities, and they have some other affinities with Johanine thought. So it is not entirely correct to say that the only sources on John are the Bible and Josephus. Other sources may not be contemporaneous, but they may be independent and therefore valuable to scholarship of the historical John.

          3. But by myther logic Josephus is not a valid source about John the Baptist because they are not contemporary. We also have the issue that somehow a scribe who was a follower of a mythical John the Baptist could have inserted the John the Baptist passage into the text to support his cultish beliefs.

            Of course we know the synoptics and John were written by later Christians who believed in an Earthly Jesus as opposed to the original space Jesus so this automatically makes these texts worthless.

            So if mythers were consistent they would consider John the Baptist to also be a mythical figure.

        3. But as Tim says (and to reiterate), gMark (the oldest account) does NOT acknowledge Jesus’s messiahship in the context of the baptism or present any basis for the superiority of Christ’s status. The logic of the argument you present would assume the priority of the later accounts. One cannot presume an underlying motive that is obviously not evident at the origin of the story.

          1. Joe Wilson oh yeah okay I wasn’t familiar with the Ginza. Yeah the Mandaean scriptures are reliable independent evidence for John. You said it’s from from the late 2nd to early 3rd century so it’s not reliable but it still is independent evidence. We also do have similar stuff to Jesus though of course from both Christian and non Christian writings in the 2nd and later centuries. John the Baptist is also considered a prophet in Islam and he is mentioned in the Quran along. And Jesus is also considered a prophet in Islam of course. But the Quran is definitely far to late to be considered reliable evidence for John the Baptist and Jesus.

          2. Joe on a side note I meant to say that the Mandean scriptures are not contemporary but they are still independent and reliable evidence for the existence of John the Baptist. That was a typo error.

          3. Thank you Seth.

            The Qur’an is indeed a relevant example for comparison’s sake. The Quran integrates Jewish, Christian and (likely) Mandaean thought. The latter are a very likely candidate for what the Arabic text called Sabians, i.e. non-Christian Baptizers, under the rubric of the “Peoples of the Book”. Mandaeans and Muslims one peculiarities of their dietary restrictions with respect to Judaism (namely alcohol prohibition). In some sense, the early Islamic confederation may have syncretized and combined core elements of all three faiths.

            I suspect the oral traditions underlying the Ginza are somewhat older than the oldest stratum of the text. As Aramaic speakers who were neither Jewish or Christian, the early Mandaeans would not have much incentive to pluck one obscure Jewish/Christian figure out and recast him as a central figure in their Baptist movement. It seems much simpler (in my mind) to suggest they reflect a third-century formalization of what was a previously loosely organized Baptist sect revering John, and which was never a part of the ordered institutions which grew after 70-ish.

  19. Hey Tim. Now that Carrier’s gone on another rant about you on his blog, can I finally anticipate an article on his space sperm interpretation of Romans 1:3?

    1. It is going to be addressed in the next instalment of my “Jesus Mythicism” series. But his latest rant has made my job of showing how bad his “Cosmic Space Sperm Jesus” argument is even easier. He is the gift that just keeps on giving.

  20. Thanks for the blog, nice work!

    If I may just pick the tiniest of nits, because of personal interest (and history), rastafari isn’t a title, it’s one of Haile Selassie’s previous titles together with his birth name (Ras Tafari).

    He did have the title Dejazmach at some point, that would have made for more of a mouthful.

    I am unsure if he was ever given lij (child) as a title, it was given to at least some noble children, but I have no idea if his claim to the throne (his father, being Menelik II’s cousin, was considered his likely heir until he died in 1906) was strong enough.

    Anyway, that’s far too many words for one nit. Leaving now.

      1. Tim regarding the baptism of Jesus. I have tried to explain to the Mythers that the fact that the gospels felt very always about Jesus being baptized by John indicates that it was known to have been a historical event. But then the Mythers will usually say that it’s a ridiculous assumption and they can’t see why it was known to have been. The Mythers say it’s not good evidence because it only appears in the gospels and they were written long after the event by non-eyewitnesses. There is really only one gospel, Mark, Matthew, and Luke being based on Mark they are not independent accounts and John depends on Mark, is much later, is obviously heavily edited and tells a very different tale from the other three. One hearsay document, written in fictional format, whose original form we known was different from what we have now, is next to useless as evidence for historical events. So according to the Mythers the baptism of Jesus is only attested by the gospels which have little historical value. So the baptism of Jesus isn’t really good enough evidence for the Christ Mythers since the only evidence for a meeting between John the Baptist and Jesus is the gospels, which are hearsay, heavily edited accounts by non-eyewitnesses and whose original form is lost behind centuries of copying and alterations. Hence according to the Christ Mythers the gospels give zero credible evidence for Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist.

        1. Yet they can never explain why it is depicted very simply in gMark, then with a dialogue between John and Jesus explaining away why the Messiah needs baptism in gMatt and then the removal of the awkward baptism completely in gJohn. That progression indicates an awkwardness to the whole story that makes no sense in the Mythicist scenario but is explicable if this was a historical event that needed to be reconciled with later, evolving ideas about Jesus and his status.

          1. But then of course some of the mythicists will argue that the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist was fiction as part of turf war among early sects. They even claim that many scholars think it’s likely that the baptism story was created to compete with the cult formed around John the Baptist by inventing a story that he baptized Jesus and declared him the messiah. It’s funny how they even say that the logic of fabricating the baptism by John is obvious because according to them the cult of John the Baptist would have been a rival to the early Christian cults, hence inventing a story of John acknowledging the superiority of Jesus would diminish the rival cult. So according to the Mythers the baptism of Jesus makes perfect sense as a fake story due to the competition of the early Christian sects and the cult of John the Baptist. But then this argument kind of fails because as you said John doesn’t declare Jesus to be the messiah or acknowledge the superiority of Jesus or consider Jesus to be his successor in all four gospels.

          2. That would only work if he did “declare him the Messiah” in all versions. But he doesn’t. He only does so in gJohn. He says nothing at all to or about Jesus in gMark or gLuke. And the gMatt verison has him recognise Jesus as the Messiah, but he does not declare this to anyone else. Then there is the whole problem of having John baptise Jesus, which makes Jesus sinful and in need of cleansing and also John’s spiritual inferior. Which is why the gJohn version quietly removes that element. So the evidence does not support what they are trying to claim.

          3. Interestingly, the Mandaeans call themselves Nasurai (Nazoreans) and their priests are called Rabbis. I wonder about the Nazarene title in the Mandaean context — if it is also a toponym or symbolic term reflecting legacy of a time before parting company with early Christians.

            There sources are somewhat discrepant, identifying their ancestors as either Egyptian or Hebrew (having completed a spiritual transformation beyond Judaism proper)

            More than one passage in the N.T. suggests that the Jesus movement drew early supporters from the group John’s disciples. This is seen as a schism by the Mandaeans, who tend to regard John as the only Messiah.

            They explicitly emphasize the spiritual inferiority of the rebel disciple Jesus next to the master John. They regard Christianity as a heretical offshoot of their movement, because Mandaean sacrament of baptism is only valid if it is done outdoors within a “Jordan”, which is a flowing river (all baptismal rivers are called Jordans by Mandaeans). They see the indoor stagnant waters of Christian baptismal fonts as polluting rather than purifying.

            The Mandaeans are the last surviving Gnostic movement with roots in antiquity. I have often wondered why they aren’t the subject of more interest to scholars interested in issues related to the origins of Christianity and Rabbinical Judiasm, as their existence is striking testimony about a time when messianic debates were unresolved.

          4. @Seth: “But then of course some of the mythicists will argue …..”
            That’s exactly the problem – you can always argue. It’s what for instance ufologists do. Backing up such arguments and claims with evidence, that’s the problem.

            @JoeW: “They regard Christianity as a heretical offshoot of their movement”
            So what? How does this confirm a mythical Jesus? That’s the other fundamental problem of JMs. They don’t apply their own skepticism to their own arguments, claims and hypotheses.

        2. FrankB, that is not what I am saying. I am not a mythicist (by any stretch of the imagination), nor was I citing the Ginza’s view of John to support mythicism. The Mandaeans acknowledge the historical existence of BOTH Jesus and John, in a tradition that predates the existence of institutional Christianity. Although Mandaean TEXTS are newer than Christian texts, they are plenty early enough to suggest they have a primitive oral tradition underlying them. I am surprised historians do not generally consider Mandaean sources. That is all.

          The Mandaeans do not regard Jesus as an authorized successor to John, but an errant disciple. This agrees with the notion (in gMark) that Jesus was not a special figure among the core group of first century desert Baptists that the early Christians hung around with. The fact that there are ancient non-Christian Baptizers regarding the Christians as interlopers, and who still survive today, is a significant historical fact that is often overlooked.

          The Mandaean texts have abundant theological similarities to the last gospel, i.e. the Gospel of John (particularly its proto-Gnosticism), but are antithetical to its messianic claims for Jesus and its demotion John the Baptist. It seems that the second century (when the Ginza was written) was a period when Christians were excommunicated from the original baptist movement, and Christianity also became distinct from its wild-and-woolly precursors.

          1. Christianity was recognisably ‘distinct from its wild and woolly precursors’ by the time of Nero (circa 70 AD or if you prefer, CE) . He set fire to quite a few of its adherents. Claudius, Neros stepfather and predecessor as Emperor, had also taken punitive actions quite specifically against the Christian sect in the city of Rome .

            The Mandean traditions are interesting in their own right, but there is no evidence that they substantially pre date or had significant influence on the formation of ‘Christianity’.

          2. Helena–

            There is no direct evidence for first century Mandaeanism indeed. I never claimed otherwise. Oral traditions are not given much credence. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. As Aramaic Nazorean baptizers with roots in antiquity, they are heirs to the culture which begat Christianity.

            However one ranks the sibling-sects in terms of age relationships, they are historically relevant to each others formation. Neither religious tradition sprang fully formed from Jove’s head. There may be evidence of late first Century gentile Christianity in the Roman sphere, while a simultaneous undifferentiated Semitic messianism flourished on the margins. A little from column A, and a little from column B.

            The origins of Christianity as a heterodox form of Judaism is certainly a story about Gentiles converting to Pauline Christianity. It can also be a story about non-normative Semitic ascetic cults on the margins of official Judaism. These are not mutually incompatible propositions. The Christian synthesis of disparate apocalyptic movements could draw from different cultural and political spheres. The Johanine and Pauline forms of Christianity had much in common, but were not identical. They were not equidistant from Mandaeanism at their inception, and it is likely that gJohn was written decades after Nero. My point is that there is a non-christian second-century tradition which lionizes John at the expense of Jesus. Such a tradition is not irreconcilable with a distinctly Christian tradition emerging generations earlier.

  21. Yeah your right that argument that Christians only fabricated the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist doesn’t really add up. The idea that Christians invented this story because the cult of John the Baptist was a rival to the early Christian sects doesn’t really work. We don’t see John declaring Jesus to be the messiah or acknowledging his superiority in all four gospels. We only see John the Baptist declaring Jesus to be the messiah and acknowledging his superiority in the gospel of John. So your right this argument that they are using kind of falls apart.

    I have seen Richard Carrier explain in a couple of his videos why the Christians would invent the story of Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist. Richard Carrier explains why Christians would invent the baptism of Jesus in this video @57:20 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WUYRoYI7i6U

        1. I’ve got better things to do that watch yet another Carrier video. Does his “explanation” deal with the problems with Mythicist claims the baptism stories were invented that I’ve already noted? If not, why would I be interested?

  22. The video is called did Jesus even exist and it has Richard Carrier in it. You can look it up on YouTube. Richard Carrier explains why the Christians would invent the baptism story at about 57:20.

    1. Okay, so here is my transcript from that timestamp on the video. You think this is a good argument?

      Question from the audience: “[inaudible]. . . set of material and the Gospels that is so called embarrassing to the text, like narrative oddities that wouldn’t make sense if weren’t tied to some kind of oral tradition or folk memory like Jesus baptized by John the Baptist. This is clumsy if you are trying to tell the story of the ultimate Savior, why is he being baptized by someone else. So clearly maybe there was some memory that you had to include this part in the story.”

      Richard Carrier: “Right, really good question
      [plug for Carrier book redacted]
      In the John the Baptist case, it actually isn’t embarrassing, nor would Mark have put it in there if it was embarrassing. Because Mark didn’t have to put in anything he didn’t want to. We have the example of John. John just erases it. John could do that, Mark could have done it. And Mark is writing 40 years after the gospel has been preached across three continents. If that story had been embarrassing, they would have eliminated it already. Mark probably wouldn’t even have heard of it. In fact, that story might have been eliminated even before Jesus died.

      So that doesn’t really hold up. But, more significantly, many scholars have published peer reviewed arguing the point that Mark’s construction of the baptism story makes perfect sense for Mark’s intentions. Because he has the leader of the Baptist cult, John the Baptist, declare Jesus his superior and successor. So, they are essentially co-opting the authority of the Baptist cult and saying ‘Even your dude said our religion is better.’ So that’s not an embarrassing thing to say, that actually a rather convenient thing to have happened.

      And the other thing is the whole scene is what’s called an etiologoical myth, which means it’s a myth that explains the origin of a ritual. All religions have these myths, where you come up with some sort of story for why you’re performing a ritual and what function it serves. And those myths are usually not historical, they’re usually made up. And in this case, it’s the myth for baptism, what does it mean. Christian baptism meant a cleansing of sins and adoption by God of God’s son and that is what Jesus does in the baptism scene. So to do that you’re going to create a [not sure of the word Carrier uses, uhermori?] story to put Jesus in history you need someone to baptize Jesus. Who better to cast in that role than the most famous Baptist of all, John the Baptist? So there isn’t anything really embarrassing in there. And in fact, Mark shows no embarrassment at it at all. It was later Christian authors who started to get embarrassed by the story Mark had invented and then started trying to fix it to suit their sensibilities. But when Mark was writing it wasn’t embarrassing but later it did become so.”

      1. The baptism isn’t awkward in gMark because that gospels has an Adoptionist Christology – Jesus is not the Messiah until after he is baptised and he hears the voice from heaven. But it becomes awkward for the later gospels, because they have a conception of him as Messiah from his conception (gMatt and gLuke) or from the beginning of time (gJohn). So they have to deal with the implications of their Messiah being baptised by a supposed inferior. gMatt does it via an objection by John. gLuke does it by having the unborn John acknowledge Jesus in the womb when their mothers meet in an earlier sequence. And gJohn does it by removing the baptism altogether. If simply having John endorse Jesus as the Messiah, why don’t they all do what gJohn does and just having John do this, without any baptism. Why is the baptism in all three of the earlier versions?

        Because it happened.

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        1. Exactly. The original text of Mark has no nativity and no resurrection and no high Christology. The baptism does not embarrass Mark because Jesus in Mark was fully human.

        2. Yeah that’s true so Carrier’s argument doesn’t work because it doesn’t make sense why the gospels would even have John baptize Jesus then instead of just declaring him the be the messiah in all four gospels without the baptism.

        3. Tim also I found that passage in Philo which that Scythe guy claims that philo mentioned a celestial Jesus and calls him the son of god, light of the world, agent of creation etc.

          I saw this in one of Richard Carriers videos and he claims that Philo wrote about of a celestial Jesus. Carrier claims that Philo of Alexandria tells us…Philo, confusion of tongues 62-63, 146-47; on Dreams 1.215; etc.
          There was a pre-Christian belief in a celestial being actually named “Jesus” who was…
          •The first born son of God (Romans 8:29)
          •The celestial “image of God” (2 Corinthians 4:4)
          •God’s agent of creation (1 Corinthians 8:6)
          •And God’s celestial high priest. (Hebrews 2:17, 4:14, …)
          Then carrier quotes Philippians 2:5-11: Earliest known Christians believed this preexistent being descended, became incarnate and died, rose again, then appeared to select people to tell them this. Then Carrier say… On the most plausible Mythicist theory: Thus incarnation, death, and burial took place in outer space just below the moon.

          1. Yet Carrier is the first and only person in centuries who has noticed all this. Why is that? (Hint: Philo says nothing about any celestial being called “Jesus”. A few people would have noticed this long before Carrier if he did).

        4. But do you known what Carrier is talking about. Carrier sites the passages of Philo in the his on the historicity of Jesus book. Carrier claims that Philo quotes this figure named Jesus in Zechariah 6 and that Philo says that this being actually is a celestial being and not a man in history.

          1. Philo refers to the Zech 6 passage and does with it what Jewish exegetes did – he takes it OUT OF its context and gives it a new meaning. Carrier’s twisting of that passage requires us to put it BACK INTO that context so that this celestial figure is called Joshua, since that is the name of the priest in Zech 6. So Carrier’s argument depends on an element that Philo did not include and is contrary to how Jewish exegesis works. This is why no-one with a clue takes this stupid argument of Carrier’s seriously.

  23. Regarding the house in Nazareth that was discovered by the nuns at the Sisters of Nazareth convent, and the artifacts within, someone said:

    “…it had nothing in it that was verified as coming from the Early Roman period “the time of Jesus”. As Salm writes:

    “Dark writes that “finds within Structure 1 strongly support a date in the Early Roman period” (AJ:51). The alleged “Early Roman” finds are the following:

    (1) “A freshly broken body sherd of Early Roman-period cooking pottery was found on the original floor surface just south of the doorway of structure 1”
    (2) Another shard “was on the surface of what seems to be the original cave floor on the southwest edge of the twentieth-century cut.”
    (3) A spindle whorl “can be confidently assigned” to the Early Roman period since it was found
    “in the earliest soil layer” (AJ:53)

    In a box labeled long ago by Senès (i.e., in an unstratified context, not in situ) and ostensibly deriving from under the Sisters of Nazareth Convent, Dark alleges the following (AJ:52):

    (4) “small Early Roman-period Kefar Hananya-type pottery sherds”
    (5) “two fragments of what may be light greyish-white limestone vessels—also probably dating from the Early Roman period”
    (6) “decayed yellowish-white wall plaster… and small shards of ‘Roman-style’ thin-walled green glass vessel (sic)”

    We must await the promised monograph and “final report” for an itemization, photos/drawings, dimensions, and individual descriptions of the claimed movable artifacts. In a footnote Dark communicates that “Tony Grey has kindly provided his independent report on all stratified pottery from the convent” (AJ:53, n.36).

    It is clear that the items in the box of Senès (nos. 3-6 above, for the spindle whorl was in the box) —some presumably with labels—are unprovenanced and cannot be linked to any particular locus, nor even securely linked to the convent site. In addition, once we incorporate the correct later chronology of the site (cf. the following sections), then it becomes clear that “the earliest soil layer” dates to Middle-Late Roman times. This will account for items 1-3 above which Dark has transposed to an earlier period. However, this will also account for the contents of the box of Senès—items 3–6—for those contents are from “the earliest soil layer.” In this way, we see that —when the correct chronology of the site is introduced—all the movable artifacts are Middle Late Roman in date.”

    Source: https://www.academia.edu/7756858/A_Critique_of_Ken_Darks_Work_at_the_Sisters_of_Nazareth_Convent

    Any disputes to this?

    1. Any disputes? Yes. Several qualified archaeologists, all of whom have examined or excavated the site, agree the house is Early Roman. That includes Dr Motti Aviam, who made a point of going to the site just to assess if this identification was correct. He was satisfied it was. And then this piano tuner, who has no archaeological training, has never excavated anything and has never even seen this particular site, proceeded to tell the leading expert in Roman Era Galilee that he was wrong!

      “We must await the promised monograph and “final report” for an itemization, photos/drawings, dimensions, and individual descriptions of the claimed movable artifacts.”

      And we can predict that when this material is published it will just give this loon more material to nitpick at from his armchair in Oregon. He’s a fanatic. He is never going to change his mind.

        1. Names, quotes and links for what, exactly? The house site has not been published yet, so Salm is (as usual) nitpicking at any scraps of information he can find to make it fit his crazy theory. And I detail the exchange between Salm, Zindler and Dr Aviam in my article above.

          Who is “this individual” anyway? I tend to find there are only two or three obsessive Salm fans who pop up whenever this is discussed.

          1. Oh okay so Philo was just quoting a high priest in Zechariah named Joshua/Jesus and then Carrier is taking it out of context and saying that this high priest Jesus is a celestial being.

  24. Great Article Tim. I especially appreciate the fact that this article will challenge both Fundamental Christian beliefs, which will do anything to harmonize irreconcilable gospel contradictions, and Mythicist conspiracies which ignore reviewed criticism.

    If I may ask an unrelated question, what is your opinion on the empty tomb? I have seen many skeptics argue the mass-tomb hypothesis, which states that the tomb burial in the gospel narratives are fictional, and the Romans had thrown Jesus into a mass grave instead.

    Now, I would not consider this “New Atheist” or “Bad” history as there are many respectable New Testament scholars that hold the view, including the likes of Bart Ehrman and John Dominic Crossan, yet they seem to be overwhelmingly skeptics. What is your view on the tomb then?

    1. Yes, this is unrelated and so I will simply say that no, I do not accept that the later “empty tomb” stories are historical. They are theological embroidery. Jesus’ body was almost certainly disposed of like virtually all other crucified victims of the Romans – by being thrown into a common grave or trash pit. Which is where his bones remain to this day. And no, I have no interest in debating the apologist arguments to the contrary. I know them all and they are weak and uncompelling.

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      1. It isnt just apologists who argue the contrary. For example, archaeologist Jodi Magness has said “In my opinion, the notion that Jesus was unburied or buried in disgrace is based on a misunderstanding of the archaeological evidence and of Jewish law….I believe that the Gospel accounts of Jesus’ burial are largely consistent with the archeological evidence…the Gospel accounts describing Jesus’ removal from the cross and burial are consistent with archaeological evidence and with Jewish law”.

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        1. “largely consistent with … archaeological evidence and with Jewish law” and “the most likely scenario” are not the same thing. Especially when Paul, strangely, makes no mention of any “empty tomb” when trying to convince the Corinthians of the physical reality of the resurrection, while Acts 13:27-29 records an early tradition whereby it’s “those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers” who execute Jesus and then says these enemies “took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb”. An early variant of John 19:38 also has the Jews taking Jesus away for burial. This is also found in the Gospel of Peter 6:21 and in Justin Martyr: Dialogue 97.1. Then the Secret Book of James has Jesus refer to how he was “buried in the sand”. The idea his followers lay him in a tomb seems to be a later development, aimed at refuting the idea that he was not buried at all or they just went to the wrong tomb. It is a prop for the later resurrection stories, not evidence for them.

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          1. Sorry but Ill quote Magness again – “In my opinion, the notion that Jesus was unburied or buried in disgrace is based on a misunderstanding of the archaeological evidence and of Jewish law” – that is quite contrary to what you and Ehrman seem to believe, so she is saying that your view is based on a misunderstanding of the archaeological evidence and of Jewish law. It seems to me the least one can say is the account in the Gospels is plausible, certainly not highly unlikely.

            As I understand it, whilst it was common for Jews who were crucified during the rebellion against the Romans in AD 66-70 to indeed be left hanging etc, that was not the case during peacetime, where generally Jewish law was respected. One would expect there to be quite a difference in attitude from the Romans during peacetime or war – during the latter they would naturally want their enemies to be made examples of and treated with complete contempt. This aligns with Josephus’ writings.

            As for Paul, just because he doesnt specifically mention a tomb doesnt mean he wasnt aware of it. He was clearly emphasising the fact that Jesus had died and had been buried, ie he was definitely dead. And Acts specifically supports the tomb view. I can imagine the soldiers and/or Jewish guards would have helped take Jesus’ body down from the cross, given that it was a centurion who had confirmed his death to Pilate, who then instructed his body should be given to Joseph, who was also a representative of the Jewish Sanhedrin, thus fulfilling Jewish law (as Jesus’ execution had been initiated by the Jewish Council). No doubt the other members of the Council were quite happy for Joseph to deal with it as he saw fit.

            So I think the account is perfectly reasonable.

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          2. This subject is completely off topic for the article above, so this will be my last reply.

            “that is quite contrary to what you and Ehrman seem to believe”

            No, it isn’t. Both Ehrman and I are well aware that you can find evidence of Jewish crucifixion victims being given proper burial. Ehrman is more inclined to think this was atypical and exceptional. I am in two minds. What I am highly unconvinced of is the story of his followers putting Jesus’ body in a rock cut tomb conveniently provided by an otherwise-unmentioned-and-never-mentioned-again rich follower. That’s why I note hints in the evidence of variant traditions of burial. Note that last word.

            And, as Magness herself notes, if the Joseph of Arimathea story is theological embellishment, “Jesus likely would have been disposed of in the manner of the poorer classes: in an individual trench grave dug into the ground.” (“Ossuaries and the Burials of Jesus and James”, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 124, No. 1 (Spring, 2005), pp. 121-154, p. 145).

            “As for Paul, just because he doesnt specifically mention a tomb doesnt mean he wasnt aware of it. He was clearly emphasising the fact that Jesus had died and had been buried, ie he was definitely dead.”

            This supposed empty tomb, along with the (various) attendant angels, stunned guards, earthquakes etc. would all massively bolster his point. Yet he is completely silent on all of those rather dramatic and important elements. All he says is that Jesus was buried. Sorry, but that silence is very telling. Those other elements were added to the story later for theological and apologetic purposes, which also explains why they are so inconsistent in the later accounts and also, in places, totally nonsensical.

            Yes, I’m very familiar with the usual apologist talking points and potted arguments on this and related matters. And no, you can’t rehearse them again here. Get back on topic.

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    1. Lataster has been recycling the same old tired arguments for his pseudo “agnosticism” for years now. I have already responded to his main arguments here.
      And no, I won’t be bothering with responding to Carrier. He just repeats some stuff he’s said before and the only substantial bit is on his silly “cosmic sperm bank” argument, which I will be dealing with in a future article. THough it is nice to see it’s finally dawned on him that I am not some crazed “liar” and not a “crypto-Christian” etc. Maybe he isn’t totally immune to reality after all.

      1. To be honest though I do kind of find it odd though that Paul’s says so little about Jesus’ life. Paul never mentions Mary, Joseph, Nazareth, Pilate, John the Baptist etc or any of Jesus’ miracles, nowhere does he mention the sermon on the mountain. I mean you would think that Paul would at least tell us that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate but unfortunately he doesn’t. Paul even days that his gospel of Jesus came from no man but through revelation (Galatians 1:11-12.

        1. Why would we expect him to mention any of this? In what context? Read 1Clement and 2Clement. You not only don’t see any of these things mentioned, you get virtually nothing about Jesus’ life at all, other than the fact he died. That’s it. Paul gives us much more information than we find in other epistles. It’s the nature of the genre.

          1. Were 1Clement and 2Clement written after the gospels were written? Do other epistles that were written in the second century say things about Jesus’ life? I mean it would be very convenient though if Paul told us that Pilate had Jesus crucified, that would I big boot for Mythicists. Despite meeting Jesus’ disciples he does not get any information from them about Jesus’ life. Paul says that he got his info on Jesus from no man but divine revelation (Galatians 1:11-12). It seems like Paul never connects Jesus to any historical figures. Even when Paul’s mentions the last supper he only calls it the lords supper and he says it was something he received from the lord. Paul does say Jesus was betrayed but he doesn’t tell us who it was, it would be nice if Paul said that Jesus was betrayed by Judas but he doesn’t.

          2. Were 1Clement and 2Clement written after the gospels were written?

            Yes.

            Do other epistles that were written in the second century say things about Jesus’ life?

            Very little. That’s kind of my point. The nature of the genre means they assume that stuff, just as Paul does. Paul also never knew Jesus and seems to have had a bit of an inferiority complex about that. So his emphasis is on the Jesus he did know – the risen Messiah he encountered in visions.

            I mean it would be very convenient though if Paul told us that Pilate had Jesus crucified, that would I big boot for Mythicists.

            Unfortunately Paul didn’t write to confound contrarians thousands of years in his future.

            Paul says that he got his info on Jesus from no man but divine revelation (Galatians 1:11-12).

            No, that’s a misreading that Mythicists make all the time. Paul does not say that at all. What he says he got directly from Jesus was the εὐαγγέλιον – “good news” – that he was preaching. Read in context, he’s referring to the teaching that gentiles did not have to convert to Judaism to be saved. He is not talking about “info on Jesus”.

            It seems like Paul never connects Jesus to any historical figures.

            Another bad Mythicist argument. Bad because it’s wrong. He connects Jesus to James, who Paul knew and knew was Jesus’ brother.

            Even when Paul’s mentions the last supper he only calls it the lords supper and he says it was something he received from the lord. Paul does say Jesus was betrayed but he doesn’t tell us who it was, it would be nice if Paul said that Jesus was betrayed by Judas but he doesn’t.

            Sure. And when I was talking to my brother about our Dad’s death a few days ago I didn’t note it happened when he had a heart attack after a game of squash. Because he knew that. It would actually be very strange for me to emphasise that detail unless there was a contextual reason to do so. Ditto with Paul.

    2. @JonX: it’s quite funny that RichardC has to admit that JMs are incapable of reaching consensus and carefully avoids mentioning that “conventional” scholars largely can …..

  25. Hi,

    Just one minor quibble: you seem to imply that the name “bogomils” is a placename, but this is not true. “Bogomils” means “dear to God”.

    1. Good point. I’ve amended the article with a better example: the Taborites who were centred on the town of Tábor. Thanks for picking that up.

  26. I think I’m starting to get your point on the silence of Paul. Given that the epistle of clement and other epistles in the 2nd Century which were written after the gospels don’t tell us very much about Jesus’ life the. It’s not that surprising that Paul doesn’t either. But 1 Timmothy which was forged under Pauls name does say that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate and it also talks about the transfiguration of Jesus. The epistle of Peter also says that Jesus was killed under Herod. So the epistles of Timmothy and peter do give us more biographical details about Jesus then Paul does.

    On the Paul getting his information from revealing thing so your saying that pail just received the good news from Jesus. Basically Paul was just talking about the good news that he received directly from Jesus that Paul started preaching and mythicists are just taking the verse out of context. Paul does say that he met James but he only describes him as a brother of the lord and Paul often referred to Christians as brothers of the lord. Paul makes no reference to James or peter knowing Jesus. Paul never talks about Jesus preaching to peter and James or anything like that. You would think that Paul would tell us about Jesus interacting with James and peter but he doesn’t. Paul never mentions the people that Jesus interacted with.

    I think I sort of see what your saying about Paul not noting that Judas betrayed Jesus because the people who he was writing to would have already known that. But still Paul doesn’t mention any of his disciples involved in the last. Paul doesn’t even call it the last supper he calls it the lords supper. And Paul even says in 1 Corinthians 11:23 that the last supper was a vision that Paul received from the lord, he doesn’t tell us that he learned about it from James or peter he basically says that it was something that he received from the lord.

    1. “So the epistles of Timmothy and peter do give us more biographical details about Jesus then Paul does.”

      Still very little.

      “Paul does say that he met James but he only describes him as a brother of the lord and Paul often referred to Christians as brothers of the lord. “

      That argument doesn’t work for reasons I detail here – “Jesus Mythicism 2 – ‘James, the Brother of the Lord'”. Here “brother” means sibling.

      “Paul makes no reference to James or peter knowing Jesus. Paul never talks about Jesus preaching to peter and James or anything like that.”

      Why would he?

      “You would think that Paul would tell us about Jesus interacting with James and peter but he doesn’t. “

      Why should we think that?

      “But still Paul doesn’t mention any of his disciples involved in the last. “

      Again, what context requires this? He could have done so, but no context we have somehow requires that he does.

      “Paul doesn’t even call it the last supper he calls it the lords supper.”

      Because “last Supper” is a title the event was given later.

      “Paul even says in 1 Corinthians 11:23 that the last supper was a vision that Paul received from the lord, he doesn’t tell us that he learned about it from James or peter he basically says that it was something that he received from the lord.”

      No, he does not say he received this via revelation. In fact, the language he uses parallels Jewish tropes where they are passing on something that has been handed down from a rabbi to his followers indirectly.

      1. Tim Nazareth is not multiply attested. Mark mentions it in his intro and then never mentions it again. It is an interpolation. Mark tells us that Jesus’ hometown was Capernaum. There is nothing out with the gospels that mention Nazareth and they all copied from each other. However Christians invented the town, it became a huge tourist attraction in ancient times and is still profitable to the Israeli state. Nazareth was NOT inhabited when Jesus was supposed to have lived. The coins and pottery do not confirm a date of 1 CE.

        1. “It is an interpolation.”

          Wishful thinking via bald assertion is not an argument. There is zero evidence it’s an interpolation.

          “Mark tells us that Jesus’ hometown was Capernaum.”

          Garbage. Read the article you’re commenting on.

          “Nazareth was NOT inhabited when Jesus was supposed to have lived. “

          All archaeologists agree it was. The only people who claim otherwise are online morons who have been duped by the fanatical idiot piano tuner, Rene Salm. I’m going to take a wild guess that you aren’t an archaeologist, which means you fall into the second category.

          “The coins and pottery do not confirm a date of 1 CE.”

          Because coins and pottery finds can’t be that precise. But, as I show, the actual archaeologists all agree that it was inhabited across the Hellenic, Herodian and Early Roman periods.
          And if you burble arguments I’ve already shown to be nonsense again, your crap will go straight to the spam file.

      2. I could list some reasons to doubt that Nazareth existed without reading Salm’s boom.

        1) Nazareth is not mentioned in the Old Testament
        2) The Talmud nor any early rabbinic literature mention the place
        3) Josephus who was stationed nearby (today’s Nazareth) and mentions 45 cities, towns and villages never mentions the place.
        4) It had cliffs that people were going to throw Jesus off. Where are the cliffs?
        5) It had a synagogue according to the gospels and could muster a crowd so it must have been a significant place that escaped everyone’s attention.
        6) Paul never refers to any Jesus of Nazareth. And during his own hardships he never refers Jesus example of being rejected by his peers.
        7) Interesting fact – Present day Nazareth excavations are being done by Christian “archeologists”.
        8) Origen who lived nearby in Caesarea couldn’t figure out where Nazareth was.
        9) Constantine’s Christian mother in the 4th century could only find a well in the area, So she had it named “Mary’s well” and so the fraud began.
        10) In the gospel of Mark, all four later occurrences (1.24; 16.6; 10.47; 14.67) the word used is Nazarene not Nazareth.
        11) Gospels deliberately mistranslated the Old Testament Nazarene/ Nazorean (a Jewish sect) and turn it into a place only they’ve heard of. For example Judges 13:5)
        12) Pliny, Tacitus, Suetonius (beloved of apologists) never use the name Nazareth nor, in fact, the name Jesus.

        There is much, much more could be said on this topic. I’m just waiting on an ancient baby chair being “found” and claimed to be the one Jesus day in as Mary fed him. Sheesh!

        “Now do you not accept that this is multiple attestation from independent sources, but that is your problem because the academy does.” – Citations please.

        1. ” Nazareth is not mentioned in the Old Testament”

          Why would it be? Look up when the Hellenic Period began.

          “The Talmud nor any early rabbinic literature mention the place”

          Where exactly should it have been mentioned in this literature?

          “Josephus who was stationed nearby (today’s Nazareth) and mentions 45 cities, towns and villages never mentions the place.”

          Wrong. A tally of the Galilean towns and villages mentioned by Josephus gives us a total of 35. Josephus himself says that 204 towns and villages in Galilee (Vita, 235), so that means he only mentions 17% of them by name. Unfortunately you can’t base an argument from silence on that small percentage.

          “It had cliffs that people were going to throw Jesus off. Where are the cliffs?”

          That’s not an argument that the village didn’t exist, just that this element in an embroidered version of a story written by someone in another part of the Empire who had never been there isn’t accurate. Big deal.

          “It had a synagogue according to the gospels and could muster a crowd so it must have been a significant place that escaped everyone’s attention.”

          A συναγωγή in this period was simply an assembly of a quorum of twelve men gathered for worship. Few towns had a dedicated building for this assembly, but any settlement with more than twelve men could hold a συναγωγή. Once again you show you don’t know what you’re talking about.

          “Paul never refers to any Jesus of Nazareth”

          Whewre should he do this and why? 1Clement, 2Clement and plenty of other later epistles don’t mention Nazareth either, for the same reason – they had no need to. I wrote an email to my brother the other day that mentioned our father but didn’t bother to remind him of Dad’s original home town. Big deal.

          “Present day Nazareth excavations are being done by Christian “archeologists”.”

          That would be news to Zvi Gal, Nuit Feig, Motti Aviam and Yardene Alexandre, who are all Jewish.

          “Origen who lived nearby in Caesarea couldn’t figure out where Nazareth was.”

          Google Maps was in its infancy at that point.

          The rest of your points are already answered in my article above or just gibberish.

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          1. There is zero evidence of Nazareth, no reference to that village until the 4th century. Zero contemporary references to it. We have zero evidence for Nazareth as an actual place during this time. The archeological evidence just shows that people were living then at the location we now call Nazareth. It does NOT show that people at the time referred to that place as Nazareth. There is no non-biblical reference to Nazareth until the beginning of pilgrimages to that part of the world in the early 4th century after Constantine had made Christianity the state religion of Rome. The locals took advantage and told visiting Constantine’s wife (who pioneered the pilgrimage route) that a well was ‘Mary’s well’ and that a certain cave was where Mary had been visited by the angle Gabriel etc. 1700 years later the people of ‘Nazareth’ are still making money from what is essentially a ancient stroke of luck and smart entrepreneurship.

          2. “There is zero evidence of Nazareth, no reference to that village until the 4th century. “

            That is simply wrong. The third to early fourth century inscription of the priestly courses mentions Nazareth.

            “The archeological evidence just shows that people were living then at the location we now call Nazareth. It does NOT show that people at the time referred to that place as Nazareth. “

            So it was inhabited and then it later was identified as Nazareth.

            “The locals took advantage and told visiting Constantine’s wife (who pioneered the pilgrimage route) that a well was ‘Mary’s well’ and that a certain cave was where Mary had been visited by the angle Gabriel etc. 1700 years later the people of ‘Nazareth’ are still making money from what is essentially a ancient stroke of luck and smart entrepreneurship.”

            Gosh. Nice conspiracy theory you have there. But everyone else accepts the most obvious conclusion – that they went to a town known to be called Nazareth because it was … called Nazareth. Please take your silly fictions elsewhere.

          3. Tim your missing my point. It is true that archeology shows that the place we now call Nazareth did exist during the time of Jesus, but that does not mean that anyone called the place Nazareth until hundreds of years later. We have zero evidence of Nazareth as a place name until the 4th century. Was the place we know today as Nazareth occupied? Yes I think the archeological evidence supports this. My question is was it known as Nazareth during the first century? That is much harder to demonstrate. Did it take on the identity of Nazareth later in response to pilgrimage demands for a Nazareth to visit? (thinking of the story of Constantine’s mother here) which came first? Christianity or Nazareth? I can’t find any evidence for the latter but if anyone has anything then I would be happy to here it.

          4. I’m not missing your point at all. Do you think I haven’t been over all this dozens of times before? I understand what you’re claiming, but the premises are wrong. We do have references to a place called Nazareth prior to the fourth century. We have one in late second century Christian writer Sextus Julius Africanus’ references to Jesus’ relatives still living around there in his time. And then we have the Caesarea inscription referring to a priestly course being settled there in after the Bar Kokhba Revolt. So the idea that Helena went to some random village and the inhabitants scammed her and pretended it was the Nazareth of the gospels is fanciful. It makes far more sense that she went to this village because … it was called Nazareth. Y

          5. @Mr Skeptic: so your methodology is: when the author of Lucas (1:26) mentions Nazareth we should reject it, even if the place called Nazareth about 200 years later was inhabited in his time. When it’s mentioned later however you accept it. Typical New Atheism (as defined by TimO’N): onesided skepticism towards a source you dislike, completely unskeptical regarding hypotheses plucked out of thin air as long as they suit your agenda.
            Yeah, that’s how proper research is done [/sarcasm].

            “There is zero evidence of Nazareth”
            You omitted a crucial phrase, so let me add it: “….. that you’re willing to accept”.

  27. Some skeptical thoughts on this post, where I think the mythicists have the better of it.

    O’Neill is relying on the “criterion of embarrassment” here, whereby elements of a belief system that are embarrassing for the writer are more likely to be true. O’Neill denies in a reply that’s what he’s doing because “There’s nothing particularly ’embarrassing’ about Jesus coming from Nazareth.” But of course there is: the messiah wasn’t supposed to come from there! This criterion has been much criticized by historians as unreliable, so there’s a general methodological problem here.

    To the substance: The problem is O’Neill doesn’t fairly capture what the mythicist counter is, so just argues past it. The O’Neill argument goes as follows: Jesus was really born in Nazareth. The gospel writers (or Mark alone) felt this was awkward, but had to include it and then had to add a new story about Bethlehem to make things consistent with prophecy. In addition, “from Nazareth” got oddly translated into “Nazorean” very early in the religion, which is shown to be possible at best and awfully awkward in timing.

    Here’s the mythicist view: “Nazorean” was an original descriptive title for the Jesus character (and Christians). This got oddly translated into meaning “from Nazareth,” which then got incorporated into the myth. From there the story is the same. Is there evidence making this plausible? Well, yes, in that there are reasonable possibilities for where that title came from. That there are multiple possibilities is not a “contradiction,” as O’Neill claims in a bit of overreach. None can be certain since we know nothing much about this period of Christianity.

    Neither explanation seems much more likely than the other. Both involve mistranslations. The mythicist view is better on timing (Nazorean came first) but requires a misunderstanding about meaning at some point.

    In sum, this is a weak argument. Besides the general problems with the criterion, it’s well-explained by mythicism why this awkward fact came about. So there’s just not much here. The idea that this is solid evidence for existence is silly.

    1. “O’Neill is relying on the “criterion of embarrassment” here,”

      This again? No, I’m not. Again, those criteria are focused on the which “sayings” of Jesus are genuine. I’m simply relying on a well accepted historiographical principle that if a source is clealry dealing with an element that works against its polemical purpose, there is a solid case to be made for that element to be historical.

      “This criterion has been much criticized by historians as unreliable, so there’s a general methodological problem here.”

      See above. I’m not using that criterion and the principle that I am using is well-accepted by historians and used by them all the time.

      “Here’s the mythicist view: “Nazorean” was an original descriptive title for the Jesus character (and Christians). This got oddly translated into meaning “from Nazareth,” which then got incorporated into the myth. From there the story is the same. Is there evidence making this plausible? “

      I deal with the variants of this claim in detail and show the answer is “no”.

      “Well, yes, in that there are reasonable possibilities for where that title came from. “

      All of which are contrived and less parsimonious than what the sources we have tell us – that it means “from Nazareth”. Is there any source that says Jesus was a “Nazarite”? No. Why not, if that is the origin of the term? Is there any evidence that the word began as some form of the Hebrew verb nazar (to consecrate) or any residual usages to indicate this? No. So this too is pure supposition. Occam’s Razor comes into play, yet again.

      “That there are multiple possibilities is not a “contradiction,” as O’Neill claims in a bit of overreach. “

      I don’t use the word “contradiction” and make no such argument. So don’t put quotes around a word and pretend you’re presenting an argument I don’t make. Your welcome around here will be short indeed if you keep up that kind of pathetic straw-manning. You’re on your first and last warning.

      “None can be certain since we know nothing much about this period of Christianity.”

      So we can just use any hopeful supposition we like? Sorry, it doesn’t work like that.

      “The mythicist view is better on timing (Nazorean came first) “

      What?

      “In sum, this is a weak argument. “

      You can say that again.

      1. No, that is not what I’m asking. Is there evidence that ANY place called Nazareth existed in the first century? If the only mention of Nazareth is in biblical sources and there are no mentions of an actual physical place called Nazareth in non-Christian sources until the 4th century, how can we know the biblical sources were referring to a real place? Did Nazareth become known by that name because of Christianity?

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        1. I gave you a non-Biblical second century source and a non-Christian third century one. So what the hell are you talking about?

          1. You seem to be missing the point that I’m trying to make. I agree with you, I do not doubt that on the site now known as Nazareth there was human occupation in the first century. The question is, was the place known as Nazareth then or did it acquire the name as a result of Christianity? What I’m trying to ask you is there any non-Christian evidence for the existence of a place called Nazareth in the first century?

          2. I’ve given you non-Christian evidence – the Ceasarea inscription. That says that priests from Jerusalem were settled at Nazareth after the Bar Kokhba Revolt of 132-136 AD. Unless you think this town sprang into existence just a few years earlier, it had to have been in existence already in the first century. And we also have the second century writer Sextus Julius Africanus who talks about Jesus’ relatives still living around the villages of “Nazara and Cochaba” in his time. “Nazara” is a variant of “Nazareth” that we also find in several of the gospels, but no gospel mentions anything about a place called “Cochaba”. So Africanus is using information independent of the gospels.

            If you mean that we don’t have any specifically first century reference to this place, I would ask you where we would find this reference. You’ve ruled out the gospels as a source you’d accept, so what other source that mentions villages in Galilee do we have? All we have from that century is Josephus, who mentions that there were around 204 towns in Galilee but only mentions 35 of them by name. So that leaves 83% of the 204 that he didn’t name. Where else would we find this mention of Nazareth? Name the source you would expect to find this mention in. Finally, even if we had any such mention, how could you be certain it applied to the site of the town we know as Nazareth? If you really want to be as hypersceptical as it seems you are, you would need nothing sort of an inscription in Nazareth itself, dating to the first century, and reading “This village is called Nazareth”. Which is a pretty absurd expectation.

            We have several references to a town called Nazareth. Some of them – the gospel ones – are from the first century. Others are slightly later. We know that the site of the town known as Nazareth since at least the fourth century was inhabited in the first century. And we have no actual reason to conclude that the people of that town were lying when they told Helena that was the name of their town. What you’re proposing is absurd.

          3. @Mr. Skeptic: ” is there any non-Christian evidence”
            Good to read that christianity (specifically christian sources, specifically the Bible) holds such a special place in your heart that it makes you immediately throw your skepticism out of the window. However genuine skeptics ask: what makes christianity so special that you want nothing of its sources?
            Let me guess – a nice, cozy conspiracy theory. That’s soooo much better than
            a) the area was inhabited;
            b) Lucas 1:26 mentions it;
            c) concluding that it was called Nazareth then too.

            Because s***w William of Ockham. The big fat thumb in your mouth provides a way more reliable method.

          4. Hey Tim I have a question for you. Apparently I have heard people claim that the Caesarea inscription of Nazareth was a forgery. http://www.nazarethmyth.infor/scandaline.htmI

            I have heard people claim that the inscription was proven to be a forgery in 2013. I just want to know what your opinion is on this claim that it’s a forgery.

          5. Let me know when any of the “people” saying this are archaeologists or experts in Semitic epigraphy as opposed to a piano tuner from Oregon and one of his online pals.

    2. @MikeK:

      “there’s a general methodological problem here.
      Apparently you are ignorant on methodology. You are unaware of the way scientists (and in my dictionary hisotrical research is scientific) test their methods.
      Google Herodotus circumnativation Africa. You’ll find an article on Livius.org, a site maintained by a pro. I quote the relevant part, a quote from Herodotus:

      “These men made a statement which I do not myself believe, though others may, to the effect that as they sailed on a westerly course round the southern end of Libya, they had the sun on their right – to northward of them. ”
      Background knowledge: Herodotus’ name for the continent we call Africa was Lybia. Herodotus of Halicarnassus also was a Flat Earther – he wrote a couple of centuries before Erathosthenes of Cyrene. Also this quote is the only available source on this (Phoenician) journey.
      So what’s more likely, did this journey actually happen or is it a myth?
      According to your pseudoskepticism it would be the latter. There is no archeological evidence; there is no second source; Herodotus was not a first hand witness, nor did he get his information from one. It’s nothing but a rumour.
      Scholars realize that the globe is a sphere. They recognize that not only Herodotus’ FETism was wrong, they also recognize that this error caused “which I do not myself believe” and above all that he honestly and openly defended his error – and thus embarrassed himself. The simplest conclusion is that these Phoenicians did circumnavigate Africa and hence afterwards told what they saw near Cape Agulhas.
      Any explanation implying that this circumnavigation is a myth is either an ad hoc explanation, a conspiracy theory or something similar, that requires additional evidence that’s not there.
      Be assured that this is not the only example that shows the reliability of the Principle of Embarrassment. But do you know who with Herodotus would call the rumour a myth? Flat Earthers. They are pseudoskeptics like you.

  28. I wasn’t aware of this René Salm and his impact upon the idea that Nazareth didn’t exist in the times contemporary with Jesus.
    Most of the time I see this idea crop up: It all goes back to that late Dorothy Murdock woman (AKA “Achyara S”) and her crackpot ideas…

  29. @SK Spencer

    You will find mythers tend to proclaim any evidence they cannot explain away is either an ancient forgery or a modern forgery. Don’t take their claims seriously until you seem them supported by mainstream scholars.

    1. Your right I can’t really take most of their claims seriously. Most of the claims that they make turn out to be garbage like the claim that the ascension of Isaiah doesn’t have Jesus come to earth. You really have to research the sources for their claims. In Carriers book a lot of his own sources disagree with him.

  30. There is some new research on Nazareth by Dr Ken Dark (University of Reading). I’ve only seen it reported in The Independent: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/jesus-home-town-nazareth-archaeological-discovery-research-a9470716.html but he has a book published on his work.

    One comment jumped out for me:

    “Furthermore, archaeological survey work, carried out on agricultural land between the two towns, has revealed that the ancient inhabitants of Nazareth seem to have kept very strictly to what appears to have been a religiously generated prohibition on the use of human excrement to fertilise fields; while their neighbours just four miles away in Sepphoris seem to have had no such ban.”

    The article goes on to say:

    “The discovery is significant because different Jewish groups took very different attitudes to human excrement. Mainstream religious Judaism took the view that such excrement was unpleasant, rather than ritually impure. Their only prohibition on the subject was that people should make sure that human excrement should be at least four cubits (almost 2 metres) away when prayers were being recited.”

    “However, an ultra-religious Jewish sect called the Essenes (and potentially, therefore, other extreme groups) did regard excrement as ritually/spiritually impure and unclean, as well as being merely physically unclean and unpleasant. They took the view that all human excrement must be buried so as not to offend God’s “divine rays of light”.”

    His book was published by Taylor and Francis in February.

  31. I appreciate you aggregating the historical evidence for Jesus’s existence here but I remain curious about the psychological reasons for claiming that he wasn’t real. I am a christian but haven’t always been and when I wasn’t it never occurred to me to deny that the Jesus of the gospels wasn’t at least based on a real person. Surely in our lifetimes we’ve seen self proclaimed prophets and messiahs, so it doesn’t seem hard to believe they exist. My knowledge that David Koresh was a man who lived and died doesn’t inspire me to believe he was a messiah (or vice versa, my belief that he was a crackpot doesn’t make me want to disprove his existence).

    Just what is it that makes otherwise rational people want to deny that the man ever existed when Occam’s razor points to him being a real person?

    1. There seem to be a number of primary motivations:

      (i) An “All or Nothing” psychology – Some people can only think in binary terms – black or white. This is a major motivation for fundamentalism: either it is all literally true or none of it can be believed. So some people realise that some of the stories about Jesus are clearly later accretions, fanciful additions or theological parables rather than history, and so conclude that if any of them are not historical then all of them are. All or nothing. It’s no surprise that many of those who find Mythicism appealing are former fundamentalists: they have just swung from one simplistic extreme to the other.

      (ii) Polemical Weight – Some of those who have an extreme animus against Christianity prefer a view of it where it is as wrong as possible. A Jesus who didn’t exist at all makes for a bigger stick to hit Christians with than a Jesus who is simply not quite what Christians claim.

      (iii) Contrarianism – There is a certain kind of person who like the idea that they hold a belief that is contrary to the mainstream consensus. It makes them feel intelligent and gives them a sense that they know something that most people don’t. This is the appeal of many fringe ideas for some people.

      (iv) A lack of well-known detailed alternatives – Many people who come to atheism then try to work out how Christianity could have arisen if Jesus was not God etc. Many people these days don’t bother to read books and there is a lack of good online material on what non-Christian scholars believe about the beginnings of Christianity (e.g. on Jesus as a Jewish apocalyptic prophet). So when they go looking for an answer to this question they find endless online material from Mythicists which, unless you already have a good grasp of the evidence and scholarship, seems comprehensive and plausible to many people.

      There are other reasons, but those four sum up why many people accept this bad idea. And those four also overlap in many Mythicism believers.

      1. “a bigger stick to hit Christians”
        This is the one I understand the least. On the internet I enjoy hitting christians and other believers as much as any atheist. But “Jesus isn’t historical” isn’t a stick, it’s a boomerang.
        A reason I’d like to add, though strongly connected to the ones already mentioned, is plain old tribalism. “Jesus isn’t historical” is effective for group building. Apparently new atheists aren’t any more rational individuals than anyone else (including me).

      2. Judging by this blog, Richard Carrier and Bob Price are III with a side dish of II, and most New Atheists are equal parts II and IV. Is that an accurate evaluation?
        On a tangent – Tim, in your opinion, are there *any* places where Paul says, as mythicists contend that “I got this fact about Jesus from the scriptures” as opposed to “this fact about Jesus is foreshadowed and contextualised by the scriptures”?

        1. “Is that an accurate evaluation?”

          I’d say so.

          “in your opinion, are there *any* places where Paul says, as mythicists contend that “I got this fact about Jesus from the scriptures” as opposed to “this fact about Jesus is foreshadowed and contextualised by the scriptures”?”

          There’s none where he says the former and everything he says about Jesus and the scriptures best fit the latter.

    2. Great question! I think it boils down to the fact that David Koresh has only a handful of followers at most, while a certain Nazarene Carpenter from Late Antiquity has about 2.5 billion followers (give or take) and is also very influential as the penultimate prophet for approximately 2 billion Muslims. Combine the two groups, and you have the absolute majority of the earth’s religionists taking the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth for granted. Thus historicity is the “great white whale” for a certain breed of armchair scholar. If a New Atheist David could take out that particular Golliath, it would be earth-shattering. However, like Don Quixote, they are tilting at a windmill here.

      2
      4
      1. So what??

        If David Koresh had lived 2000 years ago we might be discussing how 2.5 billion people consider him to be the Messiah and another 2 billion believe him to a prophet.

        If Jesus lived now he might only have a few followers.

        Both of them preached an up and coming apocalypse and neither of their followers gave up on them after their deaths. However unfortunately for the followers of Koresh we live in an age where claims can be easily checked and we live in a culture that already has a messianic figure. There is not room enough for two.

        1. Jesus did have a small cohort of followers according to the best historical estimates, but that is neither here nor there. There were many similar movements that died in obscurity. One did not, but WHY Jesus’s movement grew so rapidly is a different question.

          Did you ever see the Life of Brian? That entire movie was a send-up of the period of apocalyptic prophecy from the perspectives of the ones that didn’t succeed. One of the best scenes illustrating “minor” messiahs is this one:

          1
          4
          1. Who said it grew rapidly? It took three centuries to convert 10% of the Roman Empire.

            9
            1
          2. “WHY Jesus’s movement grew so rapidly is a different question.”
            Start with the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE. You’ll quickly learn that only two jewish sects survived. That was the first step.
            Whether we call the growth rapid, not so rapid or slow, a mystery it is not.

  32. You call that slow? 10 percent of a world empire is massive, and it was a major sub-sect of a major religion in the decades after 70 CE. It grew rapidly. But that is beside the point.

    2
    2
    1. Incorrect, unless you define “major” so vaguely that it becomes meaningless.
      Also “…. is massive” by no means contradicts “slow”. Jumping from “major” to “grew rapidly” hence is a non-sequitur.
      I don’t take any sides in the slow vs. rapid debate (as far as data are available we might maintain that it spread rapidly through the eastern half of the Mediterranean in the First Century indeed), but your attempt to defend “rapid growth” is a failure thus far (and again, this doesn’t mean I side with Kris). It’s because of your ambiguous terminology.
      You guys first should specify what exactly you mean with slow and rapid.

      1. Rapidly relative to its competition. Even as a small minority religion in the third century, there were millions of Christians. There were several competing branches of the sect by the end of the first century. Compared to the Messianic failures of that era, it grew rapidly. I struggle to see your point. Why does the speed matter? I mentioned growth rate offhand as a contrast with Branch Davidianism which is not growing measurably today, decades after the leader’s martyrdom. The analogy with Koresh is the context here. What does your subtle disagreement about relative growth rate have to do with the original question??

      2. It would be easier to show what I mean by rapid. If you wish to look at a religion rapidly growing look at Islam in the 7th century.

        If you want to look at a social movement rapidly growing look at Communism in the 20th century.

        You can look at Buddhism in India to see how it expanded at a similar rate to early Christianity.

        In 180 years Mormonism has grown to around two percent of the US population. I do not know the percent numbers for Christianity around the year 210 but it was probably similar.

        1. I think Buddhism was somewhat slower than Christianity, although not a lot slower.

          Buddhist texts were not compiled ’til even later than Christian ones, relative to the historical events they purported to describe, and even at the time of Ashoka (the ‘Buddhist Constantine’) Buddhism was not easily differentiated from other very closely related Shramana sects (like proto-Jainism and Gymnosophism).

          This is all counting angels on the head of a pin. I agree with Frank that “major” and “rapid” are slippery concepts which I have thrown around too glibly. They are all relative. Both were invoked in response to a specific comment, and I meant to compare with the relative size and growth of early Christianity and Branch Davidianism. I did NOT invoke Islam or Mormonism, both of which grew much faster than early Christianity.

          All the comparisons with medieval and modern movements are anachronistic, given that missionary religions have become normal since the late axial age (largely as a result of the success of religions like Christianity and mature Buddhism). I am happy to concede the point (I think), but I also think I am missing the point. This discussion has drifted far from the comment I was responding to.

          1. This discussion is getting well off-topic. Back to the archaeology of Nazareth please.

  33. Thank you Tim. I will happily bow out. I appreciate your work (and your patience as a moderator) and I eagerly look forward to your next post.

  34. To me it is clear that the area NOW CALLED Nazareth existed, obviously. The issue, I believe is the name, correct me if im wrong, but I understand that there is no evidence for that name before or during Jesus’s time. Also the argument that it wasn’t mentioned because it was insignificant seems to be not the case, judging by the excavations by Professor Ken Dark.

    1. Nothing Dark or any of the other archaeologists have uncovered indicates it was anything other than a very small, very poor village in the early first century. So we would not expect to find earlier references to it. And that’s leaving aside the fact that we don’t have many sources in which any such references would be found. But writing in the late second century, Sextus Julius Africanus records that Jesus’ family were still living around “Nazara”. And then we have the third to early fourth century inscription of the priestly courses from Caesarea that also mentions Nazareth. And then in the fourth century we see pilgrimage sites develop there precisely because the place was already known as Nazareth. So the idea that it was somehow not known as Nazareth in Jesus’ time and only came to be called this later simply does not work.

      1. Thanks for replying Tim.

        I appreciate that there are late second-century references, but that still is not BCE references.

        ‘the third to the early fourth-century inscription of the priestly courses from Caesarea that also mentions Nazareth.’
        Is that the same find that appears to be fake, and most likely made by Dr. Jerry Vardaman a well-known Biblical scholar and the pseudo-forger? It seems even a respected Biblical Scholar, G. Ernest Wright, did not like Vardman and doubted his abilities, saying Vardman was accused of bribery, gross incompetence, and lacking of moral fibre. (happy to be corrected if wrong)

        And new research suggests that Nazareth may have been substantially bigger than what has been previously stated as fact (paraphrased)

        To quote from Ken Dark’s book ‘While this conventional interpretation of Byzantine Nazareth is, therefore, plausible in outline within the current understanding of Byzantine-period Galilee, it so dominates thought on Nazareth’s Byzantine past that it is often taken as fact rather than as an interpretation. The unimportance of Nazareth in the Byzantine period is, therefore, assumed, just as it is assumed that it was an impoverished hamlet in the Roman period.
        – ref Roman-Period and Byzantine Nazareth and its Hinterland by Ken Dark.

        Also, a book called ‘The Origins of Early Christian Literature’ by Robyn Faith Walsh, who is an Assistant Professor at the University of Miami, has received praise from scholars.

        Part of the description is: ‘Comparing a range of ancient literature, her ground-breaking study demonstrates that the gospels are creative works produced by educated elites interested in Judean teachings, practices, and paradoxographical subjects in the aftermath of the Jewish War and in dialogue with the literature of their age. Walsh’s study thus bridges the artificial divide between research on the Synoptic gospels and Classics.’

        The only group that could have written the religious literature were elites, royalty, etc.

        Thanks

        1. “I appreciate that there are late second-century references, but that still is not BCE references”

          So? Where exactly would you expect to find these “BCE references”? And can you explain how the place suddenly got called Nazareth in the late second century despite being called something else earlier? Why? And what evidence do you have that it was called something else earlier? Why would we think this?

          “The unimportance of Nazareth in the Byzantine period is, therefore, assumed, just as it is assumed that it was an impoverished hamlet in the Roman period.”

          Even if Dark is right that this is only an assumption, we don’t have any extensive evidence of place names in Galilee from the relevant period. So why would we expect to find Nazareth mentioned? Where would we find these mentions? This whole idea is incoherent and is based one of the weakest forms of an argument from silence imaginable. There is simply no reason to think that the place known as Nazareth from at least the second century wasn’t also called Nazareth in the first century. None.

          1. Hi Tim,

            If Nazareth was a little unimportant town, then yes, I agree, why would it deserve a mention, and your argument from silence comment is very valid. If Ken Dark is right that Nazareth was larger than is currently assumed, and the area was involved in a revolt when King Herod died, then it’s acceptable to think the name Nazareth would be mentioned.
            Where would I expect to find the references? Well, to me, if Nazareth was bigger, anti-roman, and was the scene of a revolt, probably the same sources that mention other places in the area, the Old Testament, Talmud, Josephus (he even stayed near the place).

            I don’t think either of us can count Helena’s “vision” as evidence, correct? The name Nazareth comes from anonymous sources, which are now viewed as not being who they claimed to be. Evidence points to only elites having the necessary skills, ability, and means to produce literature such as the Gospels. The book I mentioned by Robyn Walsh supports this, from a mainstream point of view: ‘her ground-breaking study demonstrates that the gospels are creative works produced by educated elites interested in Judean teachings, practices, and paradoxographical subjects in the aftermath of the Jewish War’
            There are other works that have stated this before, but they have been ignored.
            Who in that time had the means, power, and education to write religious literature?, the Roman and Jewish aristocracies, who we know were in control of all publishing at that point. What could the area have been where Nazareth is now?, not sure, possibly part of Jaffa.
            Why use the name, Nazareth?, not sure, could it be to do with the Root of Jesse? I don’t know.

            Thanks

          2. “If Ken Dark is right that Nazareth was larger than is currently assumed, and the area was involved in a revolt when King Herod died, then it’s acceptable to think the name Nazareth would be mentioned.”

            No. Even if Dark is right about it being larger, that only gets you to “it might be mentioned”. it doesn’t get you anywhere near “it would be mentioned”.

            “probably the same sources that mention other places in the area, the Old Testament, Talmud, Josephus (he even stayed near the place).”

            Where exactly in the OT or the Talmud should it be mentioned? Not “could”, should. Because that’s the argument you need to make. A mere “could” doesn’t get you to where you need to be. And Josephus says there were around 204 towns in Galilee. If we assume that’s accurate and then add up all the Galilean towns he mentions, we find he mentions just 35 of those 204. That’s just 17.15% of them, leaving 82.84% or 169 towns that existed but which he never mentioned. So how can you pretend we “should” find Nazareth among the small minority of towns he mentioned?

            “I don’t think either of us can count Helena’s “vision” as evidence, correct?”

            Helena identified Nazareth in a vision? Evidence please.

    2. Size doesnt matter. Importance would be in comparison with other places. If Nazareth were bigger, I don’t see how that tells us anything about its economy etc, but if it was important then we’d expect to know a bit more including a name change.

      >> appears to be fake,

      Presumably we wouldn’t judge by appearance or the opinion about a would be forgers competence, but I don’t see the point of the forgery or why a forgery would tell us Nazareth was known by another name Before the Common Era.
      But suppose it was, then what?

  35. Hi Tim,
    Sure, if Dark is right, then I agree, it might have only been mentioned, it depends on how big the area of Nazareth now looks to have been. Sure Josephus mentions only 35 towns, mentioning the towns and villages he knew in Galilee, even mentioning a village close to the present site of Nazareth, but, of course, as you know, no Nazareth. The Talmud mentions 63 towns/villages, which is a large amount, Jaffa being one, which I believe is only a mile from the location of Nazareth. So the question is if Nazareth was a very small, insignificant town, then logically we can say it seems to have not been worth mentioning, right? If the area named Nazareth now turns out to be considerably larger than previously assumed, and, in turn, as significant as the towns that are mentioned, then we have an issue, right?
    Thanks

    1. This is getting a bit tiresome. You still haven’t got a sufficient case for an argument from silence. Our sources are too scant and the few that mention any towns at all only mention some of those that existed. So you simply can’t make the case that Nazareth “should” have been mentioned. It can’t be done.

      1. What we have is a reason to investigate, and go where the evidence leads, isn’t that your approach? Professor Dark’s findings include agriculture, rock-cut tombs, quarrying, storage facilities, as well as domestic structures, and hiding places that date from the Roman period. Ken, and his team, feel that up to 1000 people may have lived there, as opposed to previous understandings of only 100-500. According to Ken, their studies also appear to show the people there revolted against the Roman Empire around 70 CE. If Ken Dark and his team are wrong, so be it, if they are correct, then it needs further investigation. Also, wasn’t the battle at Japha part of the siege of Yodfat/Jotapata in 67 CE, wouldn’t that encompass the area known as Nazareth?
        Thanks

        1. “What we have is a reason to investigate, and go where the evidence leads, isn’t that your approach?”

          Yes

          “Professor Dark’s findings include agriculture, rock-cut tombs, quarrying, storage facilities, as well as domestic structures, and hiding places that date from the Roman period. Ken, and his team, feel that up to 1000 people may have lived there, as opposed to previous understandings of only 100-500.”

          Most of that evidence is for the later century, not Jesus’ time. But okay – how does any of that affect anything I’ve said? None of that gets you close to “so it SHOULD have been mentioned somewhere”

          1. Well, it certainly does not get us further away, if anything , it gets me closer. Ken states that evidence comes from the Roman period, which he considers the late first century BC to the late fourth century AD. He also states: The scale, chronology, and cultural identity of Roman-period Nazareth are considered, showing that it was a large Jewish village or, in the terminology of Roman archaeology, a ‘small town’, perhaps analogous to nearby Yafi’a. The settlement at Nazareth was in existence from at least the early first century and then occupied continuously until the end of the Byzantine period and beyond. Serving as the focus for neighboring farming communities, both agriculture and quarrying may have played a part in the settlement’s economy. Wealthy tombs dating from the late first century onward may reflect textually attested refugees from Jerusalem. Also, Shirley Jackson Case, a historian of Early Christianity states, in Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 45, that:
            ‘That the village of Nazareth was a bare hour’s walk from
            Galilee’s largest city, Sepphoris, and but a half-hour from its
            largest village, Japha, are facts whose import in this connection may be far greater than has ordinarily been supposed. With the freedom of movement characteristic of Palestinian society in the time of Jesus, it is very doubtful whether the inhabitants of even a small village so near to two comparatively large centers of population could have maintained anything like the seclusion that has been commonly assumed for Jesus prior to his public activity…Certainly, Nazareth was not so “tightly enclosed within its hills” that the villagers were not within easy reach of both Japha and Sepphoris.’

            Thanks

          2. I think I’ve wasted enough time reading your failed attempts at making an argument from silence.

        2. I have to say that I find the Nazareth myth one of the weirdest hills to choose for dying on. At least Adam’s not speaking about any big money conspiracies in archaeological circles…

          Let’s use an analogy. Our earliest mentions of Rome come from about 300 BC. Yet archaeological evidence clearly proves thousands of years of continuous settlement and a large multicolline community since at least 7th or 8th century. We also have several Greek writers earlier than that who have mentioned thousands of cities, even small villages, but not Rome. It’s obviously important, even an independent polity. Why this silence, then?

          The answer’s obvious. It was called something entirely different before that, but then the nefarious Romulus cultists got their way and had the name changed to give credence to their non-existent founder, who in any case is an amalgam of several legendary figures and was only thought to exist on a celestial level.

          Checkmate, Romulans.

          1. We can take Adam’s methodology a step further. During Antiquity many, if not all societies knew slavery. How many slaves were there actually? We only have the names of few. If slavery was so important for economy we should expect extensive administration with the names of slaves. Such lists are absent. Conclusion: slavery by far was not as widespread as professional historians assume.
            (Spoiler: this “argument” is a spoof)

          2. I honestly don’t understand why Tim has got so agitated. If I was conjecturing information based on no evidence, then I would not have a point. But I am investigating information presented by an expert in the field, an expert who Tim himself has cited, quite rightly rejecting Salm’s stance. As I see it, Tim’s stance is that the area of Nazareth existed, which we have evidence for. Now, there is further evidence to dispel the previous assumptions, taken as fact, that the area called Nazareth was a very small village, which backed up the argument against why it would even be mentioned. The evidence now shows that the area was much bigger and comparable to Yaffa/Japha, only approx 30 mins walk away. Ken Dark even states in his book that evidence is dated from the late first century BC to the late fourth century AD. We also read that Japha was attacked by a man named Cestius Gallus and Vespasian and the individual known as Josephus calls it the largest village of all Galilee. Now, if an expert in the field has compared the size of the area of Nazareth to that of Yaffa/Japha, I think that deserves attention. Was the area of Nazareth called something entirely different? possibly, could it have actually been a part of Yaffa/Japha? possibly. I find it very suspicious how the name Nazareth links very closely to the meaning behind the name ‘Jesus’ (Saviour/Preserver), from the Hebrew root nazar, and to the Root of Jesse of the expectant messiah in the word nêtser. Not to mention that the Jews rejected the Christian story, and evidence supports elite authorship of the Gospels, rather than illiterate authorship, after the Roman-Jewish War, as is presented in a publication by a mainstream academic.

          3. “I honestly don’t understand why Tim has got so agitated.”

            I’m not at all “agitated”. On the contrary – I’m bored. As I keep explaining to you, none of the above or anything else you’ve said is sufficient to support the claim that Nazareth should have been mentioned. The only sources we have from the relevant period which refers to settlements in Galilee at any length is Josephus’ Antiquities and his Jewish War. But, as I’ve already explained, Josephus only names 17.15% of the towns he himself tells us were in Galilee. Which leaves 82.84% of them unnamed and unmentioned. Nothing indicates that the 17.15% he does mention were of any particular size or prominence. So all your fevered insistence that Nazareth was larger than is often supposed is totally irrelevant. We have no reason to suppose Nazareth should have been among those mentioned by Josephus or any other source if it existed in this period. You simply can’t get around that and repeating what you’ve already said about three times already isn’t going to change that. Go away.

  36. Hi Tim, yesterday I read the post on the historicity of Jesus on badhistory subreddit, and I went back here reading this article on Nazareth because a doubt came across my mind. Those who argue against the historicity of Jesus say that Nazareth was put into the gospels because a) Jesus was a Nazirite or b) it was a reference to netzer, “root” of Jesse. Now I realised that it isn’t explicitly stated that in the Last Supper Jesus drinks wine, so the “Nazirite” argument *could* have some weight. The argument b) seems uncompelling and strange. But, however, in this article you don’t actually address and debunk thoroughly this two arguments, even if you make absolutely clear that that Jesus was born in Nazareth is the most likely and compelling explanation. So I would appreciate if you could debunk briefly these two Mythicist arguments, in particular a) (or direct me to articles by scholars who address the subject). I make clear that I’m not a Mythicist at all, I just see Mythicists that always reject “Why Jesus of Nazareth instead of Jesus of Bethlehem, if he was made up?” saying he was a Nazirite, a netzer of Jesse etc..

    Thanks in advance.

    1. “Those who argue against the historicity of Jesus say that Nazareth was put into the gospels because a) Jesus was a Nazirite or b) it was a reference to netzer, “root” of Jesse.”

      There are many problems here. I address the issue of the derivation of “Nazarene” from “Nazareth” and the problems with Mythicist arguments that it somehow has to be derived from either “Nazarite” or some form of a word based on “Netser” in my article above – see the section “Nazareth, Nazarites, Nazir, Netzer etc.”

      “Now I realised that it isn’t explicitly stated that in the Last Supper Jesus drinks wine, so the “Nazirite” argument *could* have some weight.”

      Not really. We have a repeated anecdote where Jesus addresses the attack on him as “a glutton and a drunkard” (see Matt 11:19 and Luke 7:34), and he doesn’t do so by noting that he is abstinent, let alone by noting he’s a Nazarite. He is also depicted sharing company with “unclean” people like prostitutes and publicans and even coming near and touching dead bodies. A Nazarite would do none of these things. So the idea that he was a Nazarite has no foundation and it makes no sense that, if this is what the word “Nazarene” meant, they didn’t just depict him as a Nazarite. Why invent a town to explain this title? This whole line of argument is incoherent.

      1. You’re right. I also recall that Jesus is reproached for living a less austere way of life than that of John the Baptist. So yeah, it wouldn’t make sense. Thanks for the clarification.

      2. Well, probably because the Gospels are fictions by Greeks to give their hero a biography, not the actual recorded deeds of Jesus. Sort of like the Caribbean version of the Ethiopian King Haile Selassie. With the clues from the Dead Sea Scrolls we have a probable idea of what the historical Jesus would have been about, an Apocalyptic overthrow of the world powers with the help of the heavenly host (angels) who would only come down to aid the just if they were pure enough. This type of talk could easily get him killed by the Romans or the Herodian Establishment. One thing that probably is historical is the disturbance at the temple, we know of temple takeovers by fundamentalists on several occurrences during that time period. The Qumran community of aesthetics also were known to take the Nazerite oath of avoidance, it’s not implausible that the Greeks, who were delivered a form of Hebraic Monotheism by Paul that didn’t require the painful removal of the foreskin and strict dietary laws, mistook this one fact about Jesus being a Nazerite as a place name he was from. The Gospels are then this pastoral tale from around 100 by Greeks casting Jesus as this wise Socratic Figure wandering around a Galilee more reminiscent of the Greek peaceful countryside than the tumultuous Palestine full of revolutionary zeal. Judea had just rebelled against Rome and were viewed the way Muslims were in 2002 America by the Roman world, they of course were recast as the villains in the crucifixion story. It’s doubtful that in first century Palestine any Judean crowd cheered on as the Romans and Herodians executed one of their revolutionary leaders. This Gospel gave the Greeks something they were familiar with, a wine toting fellow of Bacchus, pacifistic, socially going to his death like Socrates. The same phenomenon we saw with western hippies creating their own fake version of eastern religions in the late 20th century.

        1. Well, probably because the Gospels are fictions by Greeks to give their hero a biography, not the actual recorded deeds of Jesus.

          That’s a very bold assertion and it reduces things to a false dichotomy. It’s also very possible that they are both highly fictionalised biographies that also record some deeds of Jesus. In fact, that’s what the evidence indicates is most likely.

          it’s not implausible that the Greeks, who were delivered a form of Hebraic Monotheism by Paul that didn’t require the painful removal of the foreskin and strict dietary laws, mistook this one fact about Jesus being a Nazerite as a place name he was from.

          Sorry, but that makes little sense. Nothing in what we are told about Jesus indicates he was a Nazarite. He drinks wine, touches dead bodies and hangs out with unclear people – all forbidden to actual Nazarites. And this idea doesn’t work linguistically anyway. The word for Nazarite looks a bit similar to the one we get as a descriptor for Jesus, but they are not the same words at all. Near enough is not good enough here. The word means “from Nazareth”.

  37. I’m not a professional historian and I’m certainly not ToN, still I think the answer to your question should begin here:

    “Those who argue against the historicity of Jesus”
    Compare “those who argue against the historicity of Frodo Baggins” – they can come up with every explanation for “Baggins” that suits them. It doesn’t make any difference for the argument. Hence the two explanations you mention do exactly nothing for the mythical Jesus case.
    JMs who pretend those are arguments for their case implicitly admit how weak their position is.

    “I just see Mythicists that always reject …..”
    The trick is to recognize the pattern. Creationists, Flat Earth Theorists etc. also always reject whatever you bring up ‘cuz arguments, reasons and additional hypotheses.
    If you want a rebuttal I suggest you to ask what evidence they have for “Nazarite” and/or “a netzer of Jesse” instead of “from Nazareth”. The only reasonable answer you’ll get (amidst of lots of blabla) is something like “because Nazareth didn’t exist”. And that results in a circular argument – not necessarily wrong, but of zero value.

  38. Ok, Tim here’s another tidbit to add to your treatment of Luke’s census. Not only wouldn’t the Romans care “where your distant ancestors lived one thousand years earlier” Also, as Sanders notes in The Historical Figure of Jesus” Augustus ” would not have wanted the social tension that reviving hopes of a Davidic kingdom would have created. (pg 86)

  39. Hi Tim, I had a very brief discussion with a guy on reddit about what we know about the historical Jesus and I was quite puzzled at what he said. He’s not a Mythicist, but he claimed that scholars nowadays have almost completely given up any reaserch about Jesus and acknowledged that we cannot know almost anything with any degree of likelihood. He claimed (arguing that it’s what recent scholarship has concluded) most things that you have tried to debunk here, ie. Jesus was born at Capernaum, that Mark 1:9 is an interpolation, that Nazarene was a title that was retransformed into a gentilic by the later three evengelists (and that the etymological problems you addressed lead us to this conclusion), that the Tacitean testimony is not an interpolation but however is not independent since Tacitus relied on Christians or source eg Josephus or Pliny in turn relying on Christians, that the first Josephan reference to Jesus is wholly inauthentic, that the second is not an independent source since it relies on Christians (therefore, I get, we actually don’t have any independent source outside Paul and the Gospels), that the baptism of Jesus is now considered to be non historical, that we don’t know if Pontius Pilate has anything to do with Jesus at all (but acknowledges the historicity of the crucifixion, and I wonder who else could condemn a man to crucifixion in that period aside from the procurator) and other things. And he is even sceptical about Jesus’ father being a carpenter, something I see as hypersceptic since I don’t see any theological reason to make this up. He claims he’s just reporting the recent scholar consensus. If that’s true, I wonder why scholars don’t embrace a position of total agnosticism. I report the link (hope it works) below:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/q4e73l/How_much_physical_evidence_do_we_have_that_anything_in_the_Bible_is_true%3F/hi735zo/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3

    See also the sources he gives in the comment below. In case you’re wondering, no I’m absolutely *not* asking you to debate him, I’m just interested in having a clearer understanding of the subject. (Ie. If what he said has some merit- I do hope not). If you can, could you direct me to more recent articles (preferably readable on jstor) about the etymological and related problems. Kennard and Albright discussed 70 years ago.
    Thanks in advance.

    1. That person seems a classic case of someone who finds ideas he likes among the many scholarly positions on these things and so decides to declare that scholars “now agree” on these things. All those positions have been argued for at various points over the years. But no, none of them are widely accepted let alone the consensus view on those points. In fact, several of them are fringe views that most scholars these days don’t find convincing at all.

      Edit: I’ve just looked at the Reddit comment and seen that the person you’re responding to is Chris Hansen. Chris used to be a fundamentalist Christian and has been a on a long journey away from that to a more sceptical position. He is very young and has a bad tendency for stating his preferred ideas as absolutes. He also has a tendency to change his mind quite a bit, which makes his previous dogmatic statements a little awkward. He is well-read, but appears to be becoming increasingly hyper-sceptical and increasingly strident about his views. I hope this is a phase he will grow out of as he matures.

      1. Hi Tim, sorry to disturb you again, I had posted a comment yesterday shortly after your reply but apparently for some reason it wasn’t submitted, I haven’t my pc at hand so I’m using my phone. Anyway, I understood what you said about that guy on reddit and to be honest when he said that Ehrman doesn’t believe Tacitus to be an independent source I became pretty sceptical about what he was saying (unless Ehrman changed his mind in the last few years). I had a couple questions though, if you have the time:

        1) Have the etymological problems noted by Kennard 70 years ago been brought up again recently as he implied or were they put definitely at rest by Albright?

        2) Is the criterion of embarrassment really “defunct”?

        3) Did the late Geza Vermes really argue with merit for a theological meaning of carpenter (techné) as a double-entendre for “one skilled in the interpretation of the Torah”? I have next to zero knowledge of Koiné Greek.

        Sorry again for the disturb.

        1. “1) Have the etymological problems noted by Kennard 70 years ago been brought up again recently as he implied or were they put definitely at rest by Albright?”

          Nothing in this field gets “put to rest”. So yes, there have been some since then who have found Kennard’s arguments persuasive. But most scholars don’t. Chris is trying a highly convoluted line of argument that the various forms of Ναζαρηνός or Ναζωραῖος somehow can’t mean “from/of Nazareth”. But they can. We see similar constructions in Κυρηναῖος (of Cyrene) and other gentilics. And the gospels consistently depict Jesus as being from Nazareth, whereas nowhere is he called a Nazarite and the idea that this term comes from titles he is never given anywhere based on “Netser” or any of the other suppositions used to avoid the most obvious meaning – the guy depicted as being from Nazareth was given an identifier which means … “from Nazareth”.

          “2) Is the criterion of embarrassment really “defunct”?”

          No. As some kind of touchstone of authenticity, especially as a tool for determining which sayings are authentic and which aren’t, it is – few to no scholars use it that way any more. But what is referred to as “the criterion of embarrassment” is an approach used by historians in assessing what sources indicate all the time. So when a fourth century panegyric poem about the late Roman general Stilicho that paints his every deed as wonderful has to admit that he was forced to retreat from Illyria in one campaign, it makes sense that this awkward element had to be included because (i) it happened and (ii) it was so well known that the poet couldn’t avoid it to turn it into some triumph. Historians detect likely historical elements in accounts using this approach, and we can do the same for sources about Jesus. Chris is trying to just wave that away by being dogmatic and strident – things he does way too often.

          “3) Did the late Geza Vermes really argue with merit for a theological meaning of carpenter (techné) as a double-entendre for “one skilled in the interpretation of the Torah”? “

          He did. And he makes a good argument. That’s because we have Talmudic texts that use “the carpenter, the son of the carpenter” to mean “a great scholar”.

          Again, Chris knows his stuff but is also too fond of convincing himself that his preferred interpretations are the only ones possible. I thought about joining in that discussion, but he’s actually a very delicate person whose self-esteem is heavily bound up with being right about this stuff. Last time I took him on he blocked me and has never communicated with me again. Which is sad, because we have got on quite well in the past. It seems he’s getting deeper and deeper into some fringe ideas. Debating him is unlikely to lead anywhere.

          1. My favourite example of the criterion of embarrassment is this one:

            https://www.livius.org/sources/content/herodotus/herodotus-on-the-first-circumnavigation-of-africa/

            “These men made a statement which I do not myself believe, though others may, to the effect that as they sailed on a westerly course round the southern end of Libya, they had the sun on their right – to northward of them. ”

            Herodotus was a Flat Earther (this is embarrassing) and that’s why he couldn’t believe this. The only possible explanation is that this early Fenician seacrew circumvented Africa indeed.
            As all scientific methods the CoE doesn’t stand on its own. In this example it depends on our knowledge that the Earth is/was a globe. One pseudoscientific trick would be maintaining that she was flat 2500 years ago but has changed shape since then. Many speculations by New Atheists (and creationists and climate change deniers etc. etc.) are equally ridiculous (“religion stifles scientific progress”) but somehow look acceptable to them.
            Someone rejecting the CoE is a good reason to distrust him/her.

    2. Carmelo, As Tim, quite rightly, says the historicity of Jesus (how much of the Gospels can be traced back to the Apostles as eye-witnesses and how much was created by the early Church) is something that theologians argue about and isn’t settled. I took a Graduate Diploma at King’s College London, 2014-16 including a module on Historical Jesus taught by Professor Joan Taylor, who had studied with Geza Vermes. Certainly she did not teach anything remotely like your Reddit contact.

      I suggest starting with Helen Bond’s (University of Edinburgh, Senior Lecturer on New Testament) “The Historical Jesus, a guide for the perplexed” (published by Bloomsbury under their T & T Clark imprint) which should give you a good preparation for tackling the books listed in her Bibliography.

  40. he same gospel has another expression of scepticism at the idea of a Galilean Messiah from Nazareth:

    When they heard these words, some in the crowd said, “This is really the prophet.” Others said, “This is the Messiah.” But some asked, “Surely the Messiah does not come from Galilee, does he? Has not the scripture said that the Messiah is descended from David and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David lived?” So there was a division in the crowd because of him.
    (John 7: 40-43)

    gJohn does not present a defence of Jesus’ messiahship in the face of this objection – possibly because it writer did not consider Jesus’ town of origin significant, or because he assumed his readers were already aware of the traditions that did have Jesus born in Bethlehem.

    What about gJohn, or his sources, written before gLuke/ gMatt ?

    1. The gJohn writer is probably expecting his audience to know the Bethlehem story and so felt he didn’t need to note it. We can’t be sure if he was aware of the Synoptics – scholars are divided on that point – but he is very likely to have been aware of the traditions they drew on and reflect.

      1. But if gJohn was written before gMat or gLuke, or at least relied on sources as early, or even earlier, than Mark, then perhaps he (she?) didn’t know of the traditions they drew on and reflect.

        this passage could be based on eyewitness and the oldest material in the gospel traditions, before even the idea that Jesus was born in Bethleham was invented, before gMat and gLuke

        In my reading on gJohn there is scholarship that he relied on earlier sources such as the signs source, and even a cross gospel. there are even scholarship gJohn relied on a “discourses” source. he also wrote of the pool of Siloam which was destroyed and buried during the Siege 70CE, suggesting an eyewitness

        the signs gospel and cross gospel could be written before Mark, possibly contemporary to Q and Thomas, and even based on eyewitness testimony

        1. But if gJohn was written before gMat or gLuke …

          Pretty much no critical scholars think so.

          or at least relied on sources as early, or even earlier, than Mark, then perhaps he (she?) didn’t know of the traditions they drew on and reflect.

          Then you’ll need to explain why gMark gives no hint of the Bethlehem story. It appears to have arisen later.

          4
          1
          1. gJohn does not present a defence of Jesus’ messiahship in the face of this objection – possibly because it writer did not consider Jesus’ town of origin significant, or because he assumed his readers were already aware of the traditions that did have Jesus born in Bethlehem.

            so why gJohn not say Jesus born in Bethlehem?

  41. I just got through reading Salm’s critique of Alexande’s 2020 article on academia.edu. After checking it closely against the original article, I can say in no uncertain terms that Salm has written the most tendentious and ridiculous archaeology review in recent history.

  42. You should do a post on Salm’s bizarre “New Account of Christian Origins.” He claims that Jesus, Paul, the Apostolic Fathers, and even Marcion didn’t exist, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

  43. While I’m not exactly a fan of Neil Godfrey, the articles he published about the khokim tombs seems to have some substance. The part in the first article about the relative elevation of each site seems irrelevant, given that all the sites are still in mountainous regions. And since the discovery of the house in 2009 and the other 1st century evidence, the tomb question is basically moot.
    Nevertheless, the other references to Kuhnen and the correspondence require consideration:

    https://vridar.org/2020/04/15/tim-oneill-misreads-again-the-evidence-on-nazareth/

    https://vridar.org/2020/04/15/salms-nazareth-correspondence-with-kuhnen-demonstrates-oneills-falsehoods/

    1. Obviously private email correspondence between Kuhnen and Salm wasn’t available to me when I wrote this article. I saw those blog posts at the time but I hesitate to amend my article on the basis of them, as I know the writer all too well and he is not a trustworthy or good faith actor. Nor is Salm, for that matter. That said, I suppose the least we can say from them is that Salm was depending on more than his interpretation of one quote from Kuhnen, so I’ll edit my post and take that material out. But as I discuss in my upcoming video/podcast interview on the archaeology of Nazareth with Prof. Ken Dark, it makes no difference if the kokhim tombs are slightly later than the early first century AD, as these high status tombs could not have suddenly sprung into being out of nowhere. Their existence means there had to be an earlier settlement there.

      1. Indeed. As an aspiring archaeologist myself, I’m very much looking forward to that interview. I just hope it doesn’t prompt Salm to crawl back out of the woodwork and play at being Graham Hancock again.

  44. Great work Tim.

    Would you be able to clarify something? Are the tombs mentioned at the sisters of Nazareth site on either side of the house, that is, the house is in the middle of the two tombs, or are they underneath the house?

    Thanks

    1. Prof. Dark was kind enough to answer your question personally:

      “Tomb 1 is south of Structure 1 (the house) which is cut by small-scale quarrying through which Tomb 1 cuts. The entrance to Tomb 1 is in the south of the hillside into which it was cut. So Tomb 1 is both later than Structure 1 and part of it is on the south of Structure 1.

      The remains of Tomb 2 are in the south of the Large Cave (cave-church) to the north of Structure 1.

      So, to a seventh-century observer Tomb 1 was on the south of the house and Tomb 2 on the north of the house.

      No tomb was ‘under’ (ie. earlier than) Structure 1 in stratigraphical terms, but Tomb 1 is cut into the rock hillside on which Structure 1 was built, so part of it is vertically below Structure 1 which is separated from that part of it by undisturbed rock.”

  45. The argument for Mark 1:9 being an interpolation based on the lack of the definite articles for Jesus and John strikes me as borderline absurd because it requires that the entire verse be an interpretation rather than just “Nazareth.” Without 1:9 the scene transition in the text is nonsensical, and none of the relevant “evidence” pertains to the word “Nazareth” itself.

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