Review – Tom Holland “Dominion: The Making of the Western Mind”
Tom Holland, Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the World (Little, Brown, 2019) 624 pp.
Tom Holland is the best kind of popular history writer. He is a good researcher who knows what can be stated with emphasis and what needs to be judiciously hedged. He is a fine story-teller, who can weave bare facts into a smooth and engaging narrative. He is provocative and startling enough to keep the reader on their toes and turning pages. And he is quietly and wryly funny. He displays all of these qualities in this fine new book, but it is his role as wily provocateur that will cause it to ruffle feathers in certain quarters.
One of the things that often startles me about the way most anti-theist activists speak or write about Christianity is their almost visceral emotionalism. I happen to be a person raised a Christian who abandoned any faith pretty readily in my late teens and who lives in a highly secular country in a largely post-Christian society. On occasion certain Christians, particularly some prelates or politicians, will annoy me with a particularly stupid statement or action, but on the whole I can regard Christianity as I regard any faith – something that other people do that interests me largely as a historical phenomenon.
Many of those who are the focus of this blog, however, cannot seem to get Christianity out of their systems. A large number of them are, like me, ex-Christians, but ones who seem still mentally entangled in their former faith. Never able to emerge from a kind of juvenile angry apostasy, they seem impelled to strike out at it at every turn. They have to constantly remind others – and, it seems, themselves – of its manifest stupidity and wickedness.
This is why many of them cannot fathom how I can debunk myths about Christian history without also somehow being a kind of “Christian apologist” or “crypto-Christian”. It is why noting that the Church actually did not teach the earth was flat, that Christians did not burn down the Great Library of Alexandria or that the Galileo Affair was not some black-and-white moral parable of “science versus religion” elicits frantic efforts on the part of some to salvage something of these stories so that Christianity does not get off scot-free. It is also why the Jesus Myth thesis seems so convincing to many of these anti-Christian zealots while it appears clumsy and contrived to pretty much everyone else.
Bias makes people do and think strange things. It also clouds and blinkers vision. A true unbeliever is someone who can look at their former faith and not just see the warts, but can see the all. A true post-Christian can see the oppression, murder, persecution and horror done as a result of Christianity, but can also see the other side of the historical ledger: the beneficial elements that Christianity has given to western culture and, through it, to the modern world generally.
Tom Holland is an unbeliever and also someone who was raised a Christian. And he too is someone who abandoned that belief early in life: he blames a fascination with dinosaurs – a gateway drug for many a budding young historian and religious sceptic. But in his latest book he turns his attention to Christianity’s impact on western thinking and to what will be, to many, an uncomfortable thesis. He argues that most of the things that we consider to be intrinsic and instinctive human values are actually nothing of the sort; they are primarily and fundamentally the product of Christianity and would not exist without the last 2000 years of Christian dominance on our culture.
He knows this claim will not sit well with some and so early in the book he invokes Richard Dawkins:
“‘It is the case that since we are all 21st century people, we all subscribe to a pretty widespread consensus of what’s right and what’s wrong.’ So Richard Dawkins, the world’s most evangelical atheist, has declared. To argue that, in the West, the ‘pretty widespread consensus of what’s right and what’s wrong’ derives from Christian teachings and presumptions can risk seeming, in societies of many faiths and none, almost offensive.”
(Holland, p. xxvi)
There is probably no “almost” about it – some have already found Holland’s argument decidedly offensive and said so in no uncertain terms (see below). But Holland is a wide-ranging reader and, as a result, a well-rounded thinker. This is not light pop history, even though it is an entertaining read. This is a book to provoke thought and to change perspectives. Which is, of course, the best kind of book.
Neither Jew nor Greek, Slave nor Free
Paul of Tarsus was not a man to do anything by half. He tells us that when he first encountered the Jesus sect he did not just disagree with its claims, he also went out of his way to shut it down through active persecution. Then, on having what he believed was a vision of the risen Jesus, he switched his zeal completely in the opposite direction and became the sect’s most vigorous promoter, founding communities of believers in the new message of a crucified Messiah across the eastern Mediterranean.
He also drove his thinking about his new beliefs to their logical extremes, much to the discomfort of some of his fellow believers. The idea that the coming Messiah was not simply coming to redeem and restore Israel, but would rule and redeem the earth and so all nations already existed in some forms of Jewish thought at the time. But Paul took this idea and ran with it – hard. In his view, this meant Jesus had replaced the old covenant with a new one – one that applied equally to everyone, Jew and Gentile. It meant that practices of the old covenant that he, like his fellow devout Jews, had always considered so important, were now no longer necessary at all. And, to Paul, it had to mean that everyone was saved equally. And that meant everyone:
“There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.”
(Gal 3:28)
This idea of universal equality did have some precedent in Paul’s world. He was a Jew, but he spoke Greek and lived in an environment permeated by the influence of Hellenic culture and thinking; the Judaism of his time had, despite conservative suspicion of all things pagan, absorbed a great deal of Greek philosophy. So Holland notes that the Greeks developed the notion of “natural law” that applied to all people equally. The Stoics were insistent on this as a basis for their moral understanding of the universe:
“Animating the entire universe, God was active reason: the Logos. …. To live in accordance with nature, therefore, was to live in accordance with God. Male or female, Greek or barbarian, free or slave, all were equally endowed with the ability to distinguish right from wrong.
(Holland, p. 27)
But while both the Stoics and Paul accepted this intrinsic equality in principle, and Paul derived it specifically from a crucified and risen Messiah, neither radically questioned their own deeply hierarchical society – a culture that accepted men as superior to women, saw “barbarians” as inferior to the “civilised” and was built on the backs of millions of slaves, who could be bought, sold, bred, tortured, raped and killed.
Aristotle justified slavery as natural, claiming some humans were slaves by nature, lacking the moral reason to be regarded as the equals of free men. The Stoics, with their greater acknowledgement of the implications of natural law, had a more humane and egalitarian attitude toward slavery. But while they disagreed that nature made some people slaves, they accepted it as inevitable that fortune would result in some people being subjugated by others and so saw slavery as distasteful but inevitable: a necessary evil. Even the great Stoic writer, Epictetus – himself a former slave – never criticised the institution of slavery as unjust. He too saw it as an outworking of fate and a result of the great chain of cause and effect stretching back and forth in time. Slavery, for Epictetus and the Stoics, was in the category of things “not up to us”.
Of course, a learned Stoic was far more likely to be a slave owner than a slave, and one like Seneca owned many thousands of human beings thanks to his immense wealth. His ethical advice and that of other Stoics did tend toward humane treatment of slaves, but this was primarily for the moral good of the master, not on account of the intrinsic worth of the slave. Seneca could write “‘They are slaves!’ some say. I say they are humans!” to urge slave owners to treat their slaves better, but he never condemned the whole institution as evil. No ancient philosopher did.
Similarly, early Christians stopped short of the – to us, rather obvious – implications of “there is no longer slave or free …. you are one in Christ Jesus”. Paul himself seems to have held a very Stoic attitude to slavery in practice, advising Christian slaves in Corinth “Were you a slave when called? Do not be concerned about it.” (1Cor 7:21) Though he adds an enigmatic comment that has been variously interpreted as “although if you can gain your freedom, do so” (NIV) or perhaps “even if you can gain your freedom, make use of your present condition now more than ever” (NRSV). Epictetus would have approved of either version. Later texts attributed to Paul were more explicit in their endorsement of slavery as an institution, with Ephesians 6:5 ordering “slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling”, though Ephesians 6:9 advises “Masters …. stop threatening [your slaves], for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him there is no partiality.” Colossians 3:22–25 assures slaves that they should obey their masters “in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly” because assigned work “is done for the Lord and not for your masters” – a text Christian slave masters in later centuries cherished, for obvious reasons.
So Christians of the first three centuries of the faith had plenty of scriptural and cultural reasons to justify slavery as an institution. Some saw it as a regrettable but inevitably natural result of the Fall of Man and Original Sin: a position expressed by Gregory of Nazianzus, John Chrysostom, Ambrose, “Ambrosiaster” and, most forcibly and most influentially, by Augustine. Others saw slavery as beneficial for the slave as a remedy for their own sins, with shades of the Aristotelian idea that some people were just naturally servile: here we find Basil of Caesarea, but there are elements of this view in Ambrose and Augustine. Or it could be held that, ultimately, only the body of a man can be enslaved, not his mind nor his soul: so thought “Ambrosiaster” and, again, Ambrose, who had not entirely consistent thoughts on the matter.
But the very first ancient thinker to question whether slavery was intrinsically evil as an institution was the younger brother of Basil of Caesarea and family friend of Gregory of Nazianzus – the “Cappadocian Father”, Gregory of Nyssa.
“The Equivalent of the Likeness of God”
Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335 – c. 395) was a remarkable member of a remarkable family. As already mentioned, he was younger brother of Basil but was one of nine children, five of whom are considered saints. The family was aristocratic, learned and fiercely Christian; Gregory’s paternal grandmother, Macrina the Elder, was also regarded as a saint and his maternal grandfather had been executed in the Persecution of Maximinus II. He later piously claimed that his only teachers were his brother Basil and “Paul, John and the rest of the Apostles and prophets”, but he clearly received a traditional education in the classics, philosophy and rhetoric and was heavily influenced by the neoplatonist school of Plotinus. Christian theologians today note his writings on the Trinity, but it was his conception the equal salvation of all that seems to have led to his radical condemnation of slavery.
Here he was influenced by Origen. As Holland notes, it was Origen (c. 184 – c. 253) who had greatly developed the idea, formerly championed by Justin Martyr and Clement of Alexandria, that far from rejecting “pagan” philosophy, it gave Christian theologians a superb toolkit:
“Christianity, in Origen’s opinion, was not merely compatible with philosophy, but the ultimate expression of it. ‘No one can truly do duty to God,’ he declared, ‘who does not think like a philosopher’. …. ‘No subject was forbidden to us,’ one of his pupils would later recall, ….’Every doctrine – Greek or not – we were encouraged to study. All of the good things of the mind were ours to enjoy.'”
(Holland, p. 104)
Origen set about trying to apply a philosophical rigour to Christian beliefs, which was no easy task since there was a great deal in those beliefs that were strange, contradictory and paradoxical. Exactly how Jesus could be both God and Man was a question that would vex theology for centuries to come, but Origen – a fierce opponent of “heretics”, many of whom denied the genuine humanity of Jesus, seeing him as a mystical abstraction – was greatly struck by the power of the idea of God becoming a weak human:
“‘For since we see in Christ some things so human that they appear to share every aspect in the common frailty of humanity, and some things so divine that they are manifestly the expression of the primal and ineffable nature of the Divine, the narrowness of human understanding is inadequate to cope.'”
(Quoted in Holland, p. 106-7)
Origen wondered at seeing man in God through Christ. Thinking in the opposite direction, Gregory of Nyssa wondered at seeing God in man; and by this he meant all men, including slaves. In his Fourth Homily on Ecclesiastes, Gregory does not mince words:
“What price did you put on rationality? How many obols did you reckon the equivalent of the likeness of God? How many staters did you get for selling the being shaped by God? ‘God said, let us make man in our own image and likeness’ (Gen 1:26). If he is in the likeness of God, and rules the whole earth, and has been granted authority over everything on earth from God, who is his buyer, tell me? Who is his seller?”
There is a great deal of Seneca in what Gregory says, but unlike the Stoics, Gregory of Nazianzus or his brother Basil, Gregory does not temper his condemnation by making excuses for the institution of slavery to justify its continuation. In defiance of all ancient thinkers before him, he declares it to be simply wrong – end of story.
Unfortunately, it was not the end of the story. Gregory was not the great speaker or influential thinker his brother was and, as Holland notes “Gregory’s impassioned insistence that to own slaves was ‘to set one’s own power above God’s’ … fell like seed among thorns” (p. 124-5). It would be centuries before later Christians would come to the same conclusions and preach an equality of all men that would give rise to the modern Abolition Movement. Christianity, drawing on Basil, Ambrose and Augustine, continued to justify slavery more or less as Aristotle or the Stoics had done.
While Gregory noted his brother Basil as his teacher, in his insistence on the equal worth of all humans he was more influenced by his older sister Macrina. The eldest child in the family, it was Macrina who had convinced Gregory to abandon an aristocratic civil career and take up an ecclesiastical post. She was also well educated and highly intelligent, but she took on an ascetic life and devoted herself to caring for the sick and the poor with the passionate intensity that marked all of the family’s endeavours. In a world where infanticide was widely practised, with infant girls being the most commonly abandoned to death, Macrina searched garbage dumps for babies left to die and brought them home to raise. When she died, Holland notes, “it was not his brother, the celebrated bishop …. whom Gregory thought to compare to Christ, but his sister” (p. 126).
Today, the idea that we should care for others, help the weak, give to assist the needy and feel sorrow at the afflictions of the vulnerable and exploited is thought to be normal and obvious. TV ads for charities and aid organisations do not have to argue all humans have a right to dignity by merit of being human, they simply assume we all understand this. So it is difficult for us to imagine how radical it was for people like Gregory and Macrina or the others Holland highlights in this part of his book (Martin of Tours, Paulinus of Nola) to help the helpless purely because they recognised the paradox of a divine Christ as a suffering human being in these fellow humans. Rich people had done good works before. Ancient nobles were expected to endow great public buildings, hold games, races and gladiatorial shows, give free grain and bread to the populace of their city or support centres of learning or healing. But this was because that was seen as reflecting their dignitas and to their glory and esteem. It was not because they saw the people these acts assisted as their equals, equally reflecting the divine and so intrinsically worthy of equal dignity. That idea would have been alien, bizarre and even repellant. The fact that it is familiar, normal and attractive to us shows, as Holland argues, that we are like fish swimming in essentially Christian water. We barely even notice we are doing it.
‘Reformatio’, Revolutions and Enlightenment
One of the things that makes Holland’s book thought provoking (and perhaps, for some, provocative) is the way he teases out ideas that we take for granted and shows them to have Christian origins. The division between “religion” and the “secular”, for example, is so fundamental to the western understanding that most people simply assume it and would never consider that it had an origin, let alone an one rooted in Christian theology. But before Christianity a saeculum was a length of time roughly equal to the likely length of a person’s life or the span of human recollection. The passing of a saeculum was a significant event for the Etruscans and its sacredness was marked by the Romans with spectacles and games. To the Romans, religio did not refer to something distinct from what we would call “secular” affairs – no such separation existed. It referred, as Cicero defined it, to the proper performance of the rites owed to the gods or a fitting level of piety and reverence for them.
But writing in the wake of the sack of Rome in 410 and the increasing tumult of the spiralling collapse of the Western Roman Empire, Augustine of Hippo needed a way to contrast the transitory and fleeting nature of the world around him, with its cities that fall to barbarians and abandoned estates and villas that crumble to ruins, with the eternity of the things of God, that endure unchanged forever:
This was why Augustine, looking for a word to counterpoint the unchanging eternity of the City of God … seized upon [saeculum]. Things caught up in the flux of mortals’ existence, bounded by their memories, forever changing upon the passage of the generations: all these, so Augustine declared, were secularia – ‘secular things’.
(Holland, p. 160)
“Religion” or religio was to have an even longer evolution: from “the proper performance of rites” to the word used to describe the separated life of monks and ascetics to, finally, our modern understanding of it as the opposite of “secular”.
This division of life into that which is “secular” and that which is “religious” is peculiarly western and relatively recent. In a later chapter Holland traces the strange effects of its imposition by colonial westerners on cultures where it really did not fit. So Indian rites and cultural practices that were intrinsic to life on the sub-continent were made to conform to western conceptions of “religion” and “the secular” by creating the concept of something called “the Hindu religion” or “Hinduism”, where a whole variety of “religious”-looking practices, traditions, ceremonial and ideas were jammed, rather awkwardly, into the western concept of “religion” and given a neat label.
In medieval Europe, however, this new conception of a division between “the secular” and “the religious” was to have revolutionary effects. With the fall of the Western Empire and the centuries of chaos and fragmentation that followed, the Church in the west needed new powerful patrons for protection. The barbarian warlords and kings converted to the Catholic faith, but in the process the Church came to be dominated by its new protectors. Much of Western Christianity took on a distinct and oddly Germanic flavour, with Christ often depicted as a chieftain surrounded by his disciples as a comitatus, or warband of followers. Off on the western fringes of Europe, Celtic Christianity took on even more strange characteristics. And the Church became increasingly subsumed within a complex network of obligations, exchanges of favours and lordship over lands in return for services and dues. Bishops and priests were appointed by local potentates, rich church benefices were reserved for relatives and allies of the dominant lord in a given region and ecclesiastical offices were regularly bought and sold.
But, beginning in the tenth century, a new breed of churchmen began to preach for reformatio – a reshaping of the Church to purify it. Beginning at the great independent monastery of Cluny, these reformers first condemned outside interference in the running of monasteries, the imposition of relatives of local lords as abbots and the requirement of dues from monastic lands. Preaching libertas, these monastic reformers’ ideas of a separation of their religio from secularia spread to the wider church and in 1073 a fervent Cluniac reforming monk became pope. Hildebrand of Sovana, as Pope Gregory VII, took the idea of reformatio to new heights, imposing clerical celibacy, condemning the practice of buying church appointments and fiercely resisting the “secular” dominance of the Church by worldly rulers. This led to a famous showdown with the Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV that eventually saw an excommunicated and penitent Henry forced to walk barefoot in the snow to seek the pope’s forgiveness at Canossa in January 1077.
This clash was just the first skirmish in the long Empire-Papacy disputes and – contrary to the New Atheist fantasy of the medieval world as some kind of “theocracy” where the Church was dominant and supreme – was just one of many bitter conflicts between the Medieval Church and secular rulers. One of the effects of these conflicts was the evolution of a new and uniquely western European idea that we now take for granted: a division between what we call “church and state”, with the “secular” and the “religious” interacting, but occupying distinct conceptual spheres. All of this would have been baffling to Cicero.
The concept of reformatio also never went away. Even though the reformers of Cluny staged a successul revolution and effectively captured the Church, remaking it in their image, successive waves of reform would continue, with new reformers calling for renewal, purification and change. Luther and what we call “the Reformation” was just one of these cycles of renewal and notable mainly because, unlike the monks of Cluny, the reformers did not manage to capture the Church wholesale and so formed their own national churches.
And the spirit of reformatio lived on into the modern era, with the language and the impulses of Voltaire and the philosophes of the Enlightenment acknowledging they were, in many ways, following in the footsteps of Luther and Calvin. Voltaire was, of course, famously anti-clerical and sceptical of the Church, but the impulses of the Enlightenment were deeply rooted in a now well-established tradition of renewal, purification, a freeing from unnecessary constraints, an overturning of the old to refresh and revive.
Similarly, the revolutions that reshaped the modern western world from Europe to America also had their origin in this very western and, ultimately, Christian idea of renewal and purification. It is ironic that movements that saw Notre-Dame (briefly) reconsecrated as “the Temple of Reason” in Revolutionary France or the establishment of a 3.5 million strong “League of Militant Atheists” in Soviet Russia had a fundamentally Christian impulse deep in their genes.
Tolkien versus Hitler
Holland has a good eye for illustrative symmetries. In August 1914 a young Adolf Hitler was delighted at the outbreak of war but failed his physical when he tried to join the Austrian Army and so managed to join the Bavarian Army instead and ended up fighting for Germany. In Britain, a twenty-two year old J.R.R. Tolkien was recently married to his childhood sweetheart and still finishing his degree at Oxford, so he was far less enthusiastic about the war and delayed enlistment until July 1915. But this meant, a year later, these two very different men faced each other across the battlefield of the Somme.
Both saw the world as a clash between darkness and light, though each had a vastly different conception of what “the light” was. A devout Catholic, Tolkien accepted a theology derived ultimately from Augustine: with the eternity of “the City of God” standing against secularia in a fallen world stained by Original Sin. This can make Tolkien’s vision seem somewhat gloomy, especially to those who do not share his beliefs, though there is a stolid (and very British) nobility in what he has the elf queen Galadriel call “the Long Defeat”; the ongoing, impossible but still important battle against evil. For Tolkien, no victory was complete, evil would always rise again and even victory brings loss. But he also held up hope and friendship as essential in the struggle.
Holland tells a touching anecdote about an older Tolkien in 1944, now an Oxford don and also a volunteer air raid warden, sitting up talking with his fellow warden, the great Jewish historian Cecil Roth. When they went to bed, Roth noticed that Tolkien did not have a watch, so he loaned him his own to ensure he did not oversleep and miss morning mass. And early the next morning the Jew looked in on the devout Catholic to make sure he was up. “It seemed” Tolkien wrote in a letter to his son later that day, “like a fleeting glimpse of an unfallen world” (p. 461).
If the vision of the world Tolkien brought from the Somme was one of hope and friendship in a long defeat, Hitler’s was of merciless dominance and raw willpower resulting in a ultimate glorious victory. A natural pessimist, Tolkien had hope because he saw God’s grace as “like the light from an invisible lamp”, deriving ultimately from God’s sacrifice as a broken figure on the cross. A fierce optimist, Hitler made sure his followers had no time for this weak, Jewish stuff. One SS magazine was typically scornful of useless Christian qualities like compassion:
“Harping on and on that God died on the cross out of pity for the weak, the sick and the sinners, they then demand that the genetically diseased be kept alive in the name of a doctrine of pity that goes against nature, and of a misconceived notion of humanity.”
(quoted in Holland, p. 460)
The Nazis had a notion of humanity based on the strong rightfully dominating the weak, the healthy removing the sick and the “superior race” exterminating the “genetically diseased”. While they were forced by political expediency to pretend otherwise, their doctrine of mercilessness was patently and knowingly anti-Christian – it represented a rejection and reversal of everything people like Tolkien stood for and everything the world had inherited from Christianity. Yet it was Hitler who came to be rejected and defeated 988 years short of the Nazis’ projected “thousand year Reich”, while Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings, a paean to compassion, humility and friendship, came to be one of the most loved and most read novels of the twentieth century.
Holland’s final chapters explore the paradox that, in the west at least, we live in a post-Christian world but one that is so permeated by the ideas and principles that he traces over the course of his history of Christianity that we are like fish swimming in the water of Christian thinking – so used to it that we do not notice it is there. So the Beatles could sing “all you need is love” and not need to explain what that means or why it “makes sense”. Or rich, self-indulgent rock stars can put on a concert to preach compassion and aid for an African famine and see a global audience raise millions of dollars to help strangers on the other side of the planet. Both messages would be at least rather odd to the citizens of ancient Rome or Athens, but they are perfectly normal to us; so much so that we struggle to articulate why.
Holland’s book does not shy away from the dark side of Christian history. On the contrary, he emphasises it to the point that some Christian reviewers believe he overdoes that part of the narrative: a likely sign he has actually got the balance about right. But his point is that “the standards by which [these Christians] stand condemned are themselves Christian” (p. 525). He concludes:
“Nor, even if the churches across the West continue to empty does it seem likely that these standards will quickly change. ‘God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.’ [1Cor 1:27] This is the myth that we in the West persist in clinging to. Christendom, in that sense, remains Christendom still.”
(Holland, p. 525)
Criticism
Holland’s book is long and wide ranging and so it is unlikely that everyone is going to agree with everything he argues. That said, reading it as a harsh critic of any work of popular history, I found nothing I can say was factually wrong, at least in the sections that cover periods and subjects I know well. Holland is very careful in his language and fully aware that sources cannot be taken at face value and much in history is uncertain. For example, many popular authors choose drama over care when they describe the Albigensian Crusade and the infamous declaration by the papal legate Arnaud-Amaury when asked how the crusaders could tell which inhabitants of the fallen city of Béziers were heretics: “Kill them all, God knows his own”. Holland tells the anecdote, but adds judiciously “So, at any rate, it was later reported”. He then notes that the later story, at the very least “spoke powerfully of the peculiar horror that shadowed the crusaders’ minds” (p. 245). Even if the lurid story is untrue (and it probably is), the fact is tens of thousands of citizens of Béziers were put to the sword in the name of faith.
On other points Holland takes a position which is highly defensible, even though there are other interpretations. One of the problems with the kind of popular historical overview that Dominion represents is the author usually cannot stop the flow of his narrative to pause and present alternative views and then argue for a particular position. Holland usually at least indicates that there are other views, though at times he presents a single view with a great deal of emphasis and without any indication of an alternative. For example, he argues that our whole concept of homosexuality is a recent development and one ultimately based on Pauline theology. Before Christianity, Holland argues, there was no conception of a homosexual orientation: some men – many of them, actually – had sex with other men. This was not seen as some kind of “orientation”, but definitely was seen in terms of power relationships. There was no shame in having sex with a man, but there was great shame attached to being the passive partner.
Of course, all this is highly debatable and the debate continues. In particular, James Davidson has argued in The Greeks and Greek Love: A Bold New Exploration of the Ancient World (2007) that something very much like our modern conception of homosexuality actually did exist in the ancient world. Others have taken up this argument, while many retain the older position of Kenneth J. Dover that Holland favours. Some of Holland’s more over-eager online critics have tried to claim, erroneously, that Davidson’s view is the current consensus (it is not) and that Holland is simply ignorant of the debate. I know from personal correspondence with Holland that he certainly is not, but an indication that there is such a debate would have been useful. I have been harshly critical of Catherine Nixey for presenting one view as though it is fact, and while Holland is not as guilty of it as Nixey, it does leave him open to being dismissed for being slanted in what he presents.
Many of his critics have little interest in the nuances of his argument, however: they simply reject his thesis wholesale. And here, gentle reader, we find – yet again and with wearisome inevitability – the indefatigable polemicist, failed academic and unemployed blogger, Dr. Richard C. Carrier (PhD – he has a doctorate, you see). Carrier has not actually read Holland’s book: he is much too busy peddling his fringe Jesus Mythicism thesis and writing his latest effort, Jesus From Outer Space: What the Earliest Christians Really Believed about Christ, which seems to be a kind of “Mythicism for Dummies” and will be released, appropriately, on April Fool’s Day this year [Edit – publication of this essential tome has been delayed until September 1, 2020]. But Carrier took a little time out from his busy unemployment to write a briskly dismissive rejection of Holland’s argument. He was responding to a pre-publication teaser piece Holland wrote for the Spectator, “Thank God for Western Values” (20 April, 2019), which was a broad summary of the themes of his forthcoming book. Holland concludes:
“The cross, that ancient tool of imperial power, remains what it has always been: the fitting symbol of a transfiguration in the affairs of humanity as profound and far-reaching as any in history. …. It is the audacity of it …. that serves to explain, more surely than anything else, the sheer strangeness of Christianity, and of the civilisation to which it gave birth.”
Carrier, the reflex anti-theist and anti-Christian activist, was having none of this. In a characteristically splenetic piece entitled “No, Tom Holland, It Wasn’t Christian Values That Saved the West”, Carrier dismisses Holland as “another amateur” and a “novelist” with “no degrees in history, and no advanced degrees whatever” and declares categorically “everything he says is false”.
Carrier then congratulates himself, declaring “I’ve already refuted Holland’s entire thesis”, linking to several of his blog posts and book chapters in atheist polemics, all of which dispute various things that … Holland does not actually say. But when he does bother to contend with Holland’s Spectator piece as opposed to what he imagines is Holland’s thesis, it is the idea that the conception of God as a pitiful crucified human victim that was uniquely significant that gets Carrier especially grumpy. First he sneers at the idea that the key Easter story was unique in any way:
“That idea did not come from Christianity. Even insofar as Easter itself is even Christian. After all, it actually incorporates a bunch of pagan holiday stuff now—there are no bunnies laying eggs in the Bible; and Eastre, the German goddess of fertility after which Easter even takes its name, is very definitely a pagan deity. “
This is typically sloppy stuff from Carrier, given that there is no evidence that the bunnies and eggs of Easter are “pagan” at all, no evidence that Eostre (not “Eastre”) was “German” and the name of this local Anglo-Saxon deity is about the only pagan thing about Easter (see “Easter, Ishtar, Eostre and Eggs” for a summary of the evidence and scholarship on this). As usual, Carrier’s bluster and bravado outweigh his knowledge and competence.
Nuanced points are, as usual, lost on Carrier. Holland notes Richard Dawkins musing on why he, an atheist and secularist, prefers the sound of church bells to that of the Islamic call to prayer and says that “a preference for church bells over the sound of Muslims praising God does not just emerge by magic”; pretty obviously making the point that we are all products of our cultural context. Yet Carrier misses this simple point completely, sneering:
“Holland’s following implication that Christian music (specifically, the lamest kind: church bells chiming) is “prettier” than Muslim’s singing (or even the Arabic language) is pretty much just imperialist pap. I don’t even agree. Perhaps because I’m not an imperialist dick.”
Anyone who is not a sophomoric jerk (“lamest”, “I don’t even”, “dick”) would notice that Holland makes no claim that church bells are “prettier” (though Dawkins certainly does) and that Carrier clearly did not understand what Holland is actually saying. Much of his piece is at this level of inattentive undergraduate spluttering and blundering.
When Carrier does manage to actually engage with something Holland is saying, the results are not much better. In sweeping strokes, he declares grandly that “dignitas and its related ideas, even in the sense of the common worth of persons, was already a widely known pagan concept. So Christianity can’t claim to have invented it”. But Holland does not say that it was invented by Christians, rather that it was given a new and far wider application by them – one we accept so naturally now that people like Carrier mistakenly read it back into the writings of his “Aristotelians, Epicureans, and Stoics”.
Much of the rest of his piece is pettifogging mixed with near constant self-promotion and aggrandisement. The remainder is simply wrongheaded. Objecting to Holland noting that Christianity, uniquely, gave us the idea of a God who was “closer to the weak than to the mighty, to the poor than to the rich” Carrier declares (citing himself, yet again) “humiliated, humbled, crippled, castrated, crucified, and defiled gods and heroes already abounded in paganism”. Leaving aside infelicities like his claim the Sumerian goddess Inanna was “crucified”, the problem is that no story of any pagan deity who happened to suffer some humiliation took on the significance of the crucified Jesus in Christianity. No-one taught we should be kind to strangers by citing Inanna’s death or Attis’ castration. Again, Carrier completely misses the point. Then again, Holland’s points tend to require a degree of nuanced thinking and, as with all fundamentalist apologists, that is definitely not Carrier’s strong point.
Turning from a blogger ranting to his peanut gallery, Holland’s arguments got a slightly more measured and intelligent critical analysis when New Atheist luminary and philosopher, A.C. Grayling, debated him on Justin Brierley’s Christian radio show/podcast Unbelievable in December 2019. A video of their conversation can be found below:
The whole discussion is well worth watching and a full analysis of the points argued on both sides would take an article in itself [Edit – see The Great Myths 8: The Loss of Ancient Learning for that detailed analysis]. But what is astonishing is the way many of Grayling’s arguments are based on a bizarre caricature of history. A caricature so ludicrous and riddled with hoary myths, misconceptions and howlers that Holland, at several points, seems almost at a loss as to how to respond. And Grayling is, it needs to be remembered, a former Professor of Philosophy at Birkbeck, University of London, and the current master of the New College of the Humanities. That he has such a pathetically bad grasp of history is testament, yet again, to how crippling biases can make intelligent people very stupid.
Some of the things Grayling accepts as historical are complete myths, such as his invocation of the so-called “droit de seigneur” whereby medieval lords were supposed to have a legal right to have sex with the wife of any of his vassals on the night of their wedding. Grayling seems to actually think this happened, even though whole books have been written debunking this myth and showing how it arose – see Alain Boureau The Lord’s First Night: The Myth of the Droit de Cuissage (University of Chicago Press, 1998). This myth was a favourite of Voltaire, who never let facts get in the way of a nice jab at the Middle Ages, and is perpetuated in popular culture to this day by things like Mel Gibson’s gloriously silly movie Braveheart. Which gives us an indication of where the master of the New College of the Humanities is getting his information about history.
Other elements of Grayling’s weird understanding of the past involves a hopelessly mangled understanding of things. At around the 27 minute mark in the video above, Holland gets understandably annoyed at Grayling’s claims about Christians destroying ancient texts, taking issue with the idea that “bands of Christians roamed around destroying copies of Aeschylus”. He notes that not only is there no evidence of any orders to destroy classical texts in anything like the Theodosian Code, but that we know that these works continued to be copied and studied by the very Christian monks Grayling scorns.
Grayling then interjects forcefully, saying that this happened “much later on” and tries to claim that these works only survived thanks to Muslim scholars. Holland notes, correctly, that these Muslim scholars were working from copies preserved by Byzantine and Nestorian monks working in the lands conquered by the Muslims, which Grayling tries to simply wave away with a fumbled memory some “Muslim caliph” who ordered the Greek works be translated. But his stumbling reply cannot get around the fact that Holland keeps hammering – the texts they worked from did not fall from the skies or were not found in a hidden cache from pre-Christian times. They were preserved by the Byzantine and Nestorian scholars who had been copying them and studying them for centuries. Holland is right and Grayling is simply totally and grotesquely wrong.
Grayling then plays a shifty game of referring, correctly, to the great loss of Greek learning in the Latin west in the early Middle Ages and then trying to pretend this was also the case in the Greek and Syriac east. Holland does not let him get away with this and Grayling simply responds by getting snooty. I must say by this stage Holland was exhibiting a degree of very English restraint and good manners – if I had been there Grayling would have received a heavy dose of blistering Australian forthrightness and obscenity.
But he bumbles on. Grayling tells us the dramatic bedtime story of bad, wicked Justinian, who “closed the Academy of Plato” in Athens and shut down all the ancient schools of learning in 529 AD, plunging us into a terrible dark age. He seems very fond of this story, since he invokes it twice and gets quite exercised each time he mentions it. And it is a great story. The only problem is … it is nonsense.
As I have detailed before, there was no Empire-wide closing of schools of wisdom in 529. As Edward J. Watts shows in his excellent article on the subject (see “Justinian, Malalas and the End of Athenian Philosophical Teaching in A.D. 529”, The Journal of Roman Studies, 94, 2004, pp. 168-182), Justinian simply withdrew state funding of schools run by pagans. Pagan teachers could and did continue to teach. And Christian teachers continued to teach the classics and the philosophy that had always been the curriculum of Roman learning. There was no “closing of the western mind”.
Grayling is also labouring under the misconception that the Academy in Athens that shut up shop when its state funding was withdrawn by Justinian’s edict was the one established by Plato 900 years earlier. After all, this makes for a much more sensational and dramatic story. But, yet again, the esteemed master of the New College of the Humanities has completely bungled things. Plato’s original Academy was shut down back in 86 BC when the Roman general Sulla laid waste to Athens. The Academy that closed itself down in 529 was a much later institution set up in the early fifth century AD. And it was a small group of Iamblichan neo-Platonists who practised thaumaturgical magic and held strange mystical views that Plato would have found rather bizarre – it simply was not the centre of venerable ancient wisdom Grayling fondly imagines. The “history” Grayling invokes is consistently garbled myth.
There is much, much more that Grayling gets badly wrong and Christian writer Esther O’Reilly has written an amusing article on the Unbelievable website, skewering him further. Yet again, a wilfully ignorant atheist, spouting dusty eighteenth century myths about history, has let himself open to wry ridicule by Christians because he gets things hopelessly wrong. When are my fellow atheists going to stop doing this?
Provocation and Reflection
I noted at the beginning of this review that Holland’s Dominion is the best kind of book – one that provokes thought and changes perspectives. It is not necessary to agree with every point or accept every argument in such a book for it to be this kind of good work. After all, I was not wholly convinced that the Christian concept of reformatio, reformation or revolution was as radical a departure from earlier revolutions as Holland claims. Holland argues that things like Augustus’ hijacking of the Roman Republic was presented more as a re-establishment of former, traditional governance (even though it was not) and so was not really a revolution per se. But this is undercut by the fact that the medieval reformatio and the Protestant Reformation were also presented as a return to earlier, purer forms of the Church. I am also still in two minds about Holland’s arguments regarding sexual mores and the shift in ancient attitudes to what we call homosexuality.
But I feel the sign of a good book is that it is one that stays in the mind after it is read and shapes the way you read and see what comes afterwards. Since finishing Dominion I keep finding its arguments coming back to me as I watch the news, read the paper, listen to friends or read other history books. Few books have the weight of influence to do this, and that this one does so is a testament to its profound significance. That is no small feat for a popular history writer.
206 thoughts on “Review – Tom Holland “Dominion: The Making of the Western Mind””
I got to say pretty impressive work for some crazy carpenter who died almost two thousands years ago. Thanks for the good read Tim.
I’d say the most important thing about Jesus was that he had followers who were dedicated enough to keep believing in him even after he was dead, and to create a belief system around him that was compelling enough to attract brilliant minds like Paul of Tarsus, Augustine of Hippo, and Gregory of Nyssa. The values that we hold today were their work, even if they drew inspiration from Jesus’ words.
“and to create a belief system around him that was compelling enough to attract brilliant minds “.
Yes. You are right. It must be a brilliant belief system to have this effect. I’m sorry to ask… are you an atheist? Anyhow, could I cite this quote? Thank you.
“It must be a brilliant belief system to have this effect.” Hardly. By that standard, Theosophy must be a brilliant belief system in order to have attracted Alfred Russell Wallace and William Butler Yeats, but I doubt you’d be eager to argue that. When I said “compelling”, I meant in an emotional sense, not an intellectual one. I think most religious conversions are more motivated by a belief system’s emotional appeal than by its intellectual rigor. Moreover, there is a great deal in the theology of Paul and Augustine that strikes me as nonsensical, yet I acknowledge that each of them was extremely innovative, and each rendered Christianity’s intellectual underpinnings more systematic than they had been previously. Holland argues — and I don’t have the expertise to disagree with him — that in doing so, these thinkers established some ethical principles that most of us adhere to, even those of us who reject a large part of their legacy.
‘I’d say the most important thing about Jesus was that he had followers who were dedicated enough to keep believing in him even after he was dead’
– or perhaps his life didnt end in death! Im not convinced his followers were so dedicated before.
Because the gospels were written that way. And be careful of the rule I have around here about preaching. My tolerance for it is low.
Part of the belief system was that Jesus didn’t stay dead. So if he did stay dead and his followers knew it, it’s worth asking why they went to such trouble to spread that belief system.
That reduces things to a false dichotomy of either (a) he didn’t rise from the dead and they knew that or (b) he did and they knew that too. That leaves out a whole range of other options whereby they sincerely believed he rose from the dead, despite the fact he didn’t. People come to hold sincere and even fanatical beliefs about all kinds of strange things that aren’t true all the time. That is vastly more likely than anyone actually rising from the dead and so is the most likely option.
Tim – What a great article! Gregory of Nyssa has been one of my moral heroes for a long time. That Sermon (an Easter sermon, if memory serves) was a fantastic illumination of what Christianity actually required of this very ostentatiously Christian society. Of course, Gregory’s injunction was DOA (like so much of the basic message of what Christians were to do about worldly goods and dealing with other people). The Roman State would have collapsed without slavery and that was the end of the discussion. So it was not Gregory’s shortcomings (whatever they may have been), but the impossibility of what he (correctly) argued Christianity required. Technology needed 1300 years more of development for abolition of slavery in the developed world to be able to gain traction. And then, again, it was Christians – Quakers and Baptists – who started the discussion. Holland is a fine writer and I’ve enjoyed his books. Looking forward to reading this one.
Thanks for the effort and thought that went into this.
Thanks for this. Two comments occurred to me:
1) It sounds as though Holland’s book is a rough equivalent in philosophy to Pierre Duhem’s Le système du monde: histoire des doctrines cosmologiques de Platon à Copernic. That would have provoked more debate if he hadn’t struggled to find a publisher, but again it placed Christian thinking as an essential part of Renaissance science, which wasn’t terribly popular in intellectual circles in nineteenth century France. If it has a similar long-term impact it will undoubtedly be an important work.
2) I have to say I find it rather ironic Carrier criticises somebody in a review when he has not read their actual book, when he criticised the late Larry Hurtado for doing that to his um, shall we say, lengthy book on Mythicism. And Hurtado had at least started reading the book, before deciding so much of it was either mistaken or deliberately falsified that the rest would clearly be worthless.
Great review Tim. Grayling is a truly abysmal historian; I have taken him to task a couple of times on The Renaissance Mathematicus
Tim, what’s up with the Essene’s views on slavery? From my understanding they didn’t own slaves. Was this due to any value for the dignity of man, or for some other reason? If the former is true, then I suspect the intrinsic value which we give to human dignity is derived from the OT idea of the Imago Dei rather than any Christian idea per say, though surely Christianity, due to it’s evangelistic nature did mediate it to the gentile world. I say this due to the fact that figures such as Gregory of Nyssa (as you have pointed out), and William Wilberforce did indeed gain their opposition to slavery from Genesis 1:26.
“the very first ancient thinker to question whether slavery was intrinsically evil as an institution”
In addition: before Gregorius of Nyssa christianity deserves credit for giving the nobodies (and not only slaves) a voice. To our own standards it’s not much (which provides an argument against the christian god based on moral superiority), but in the social context of that time, assuming christianity was a fully human enterprise, it’s remarkable.
You do realize you’re proving Holland’s point?
Your statement of “slavery bad” is rooted entirely in this culture that has been so heavily influenced by Christian thought over the past 2000 years.
It would have been largely meaningless in Ancient Rome, or indeed in most cultures outside our own.
Sorry, misunderstood what you were saying, Frank.
No problem, Jason. You give me the opportunity to specify that statement of mine.
“heavily influenced by Christian thought” is trivial, because for centuries all thinkers in Europe were christians. It is also incomplete because it doesn’t explain how comes that christian thinkers at the other hand were totally capable of defending slavery. A good example is the 18th Century Afro-Dutch theologian Jacobus Capitein. I bet he isn’t mentioned in Holland’s book. A good theory has to explain all relevant facts. From ToN’s and JonaL’s reviews (see the link I gave elsewhere on this page) I don’t get the impression that Holland does.
Of course something stupid like “religion wastes everything” doesn’t follow.
” It is also incomplete because it doesn’t explain how comes that christian thinkers at the other hand were totally capable of defending slavery.”
There have also been christian thinker perfectly capable of claiming the Earth is flat; that polygamy is the most christian form of marriage; or that castrating oneself is a moral duty. I am not quite sure what you are getting at, here.
That such topics are relevant for the question how christianity shaped the western mind, nothing more, nothing less.
I don’t know where you’re getting the “earth is flat” or “polygamy is good” stuff from, but none of the Church fathers believed that (cards on the table, I’m a Christian layman who really likes patristics and finds this blog interesting). Many Church fathers considered it wrong or morally dubious to remarry after a spousal death. Others established very strict rules against Polygamy.
The castration being a moral duty is a slander levelled at Origen a couple of hundred years after he lived. His commentary on relevant bible passages implies the exact opposite of wanting to self-castrate.
“we take for granted and shows them to have Christian origins”
Some 25 years ago I realized that it should be the other way round. My native country, The Netherlands, has been christian for more than a millennium. How could I not have been influenced? The hard work, after declaring myself a christian, consisted of identifying those influences and then questioning them. And even that is Biblical – research everything and keep what’s good, or however that Bible quote goes.
Small question: how exactly does “there are no bunnies laying eggs in the Bible …“ etc., assuming it’s correct, contradict the thesis that “the conception of God as a pitiful crucified human victim” comes from christianity?
Don’t bother to answer – my bet is that Carrier simply doesn’t care.
“Grayling’s claims about Christians destroying ancient texts”
Grumph, now this is stupid indeed. No anti-christian claim is easier to refute than this one. Grayling has expertedly disqualified himself. OK, I once met a claim that Galilei was burned at a stake, but that didn’t exactly come from a professional philosopher, but from someone who couldn’t tell the difference with Bruno.
“When are my fellow atheists going to stop doing this?”
As soon as they realize that (1) their anti-christianity actually inflates the importance of their arch enemy and (2) in the long run sticking to facts is a way more effective strategy to get rid of undesirable christian influences. In other words: so long that I can’t distinguish it from never.
What about Galileo being burned at the stake for claiming the Earth is round? Have encountered that one repeatedly, most egregiously in an English newspaper article translated into Danish, whith the danish translator having interjected that little tidbit because “it seemed appropriate”.
This claim has a good chance to end in the dustbin, because it’s so easy to refute. I mean, even Answers in Genesis has a page called Arguments Christians should Avoid.
“Nor, even if the churches across the West continue to empty does it seem likely that these standards will quickly change. ‘God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.’ [1Cor 1:27] This is the myth that we in the West persist in clinging to. Christendom, in that sense, remains Christendom still.”
Here’s where my fellow theists tend to get it wrong (myself included, in the past). Acting as though an apocalyptic event would happen if the west secularises. If Holland is correct, then Christian values are too embedded in our culture for such an event to happen.
Weren’t Christian values firmly established in the Weimar Republic? Look what happened with that.
Some have asked though, whether without its fundation the building can still stand. I.e., will our values (which have been influenced by Christianity) remain or will they radically change or even be replaced by other values. As Nietzsche wrote: “When one gives up the Christian faith, one pulls the right to Christian morality out from under one’s feet. This morality is by no means self-evident (…) By breaking one main concept out of Christianity, the faith in God, one breaks the whole: nothing necessary remains in one’s hands.” In order to deal with this, he came up with the idea of the Übermensch for this (not to be confused of course with the later Nazi misuse of the term).
Thanks for that. I’ll probably have to wait for the paperback with my rotten finances.
“Objecting to Holland noting that Christianity, uniquely, gave us the idea of a God who was “closer to the weak than to the mighty, to the poor than to the rich” …”
This is one point I disagree with. Egyptian gods were said to protect the weak and poor. Some of the mystery cults seemed to have attracted lower class people too. They offered personal salvation to anyone regardless of their status in society.
Wisdom in Transition: Act and Consequence in Second Temple Instructions(Brill 2008), Samuel L. Adams
“In conjunction with the warnings against greed, there is a special concern for the poor in Amenemope[Egyptian wisdom text]…Perhaps the most revealing statement on this topic occurs in chapter 28: “God loves him who cares for the poor, More than him who respects the wealthy.””
Gods and Men in Egypt: 3000 BCE to 395 CE(Cornell University Press, 2005), Francoise Dunand, Christiane Zivie-Coche
“Re, the “august god, the beloved, the merciful” was the one “who hears the entreaties of the one who cries out to him, who comes at the voice of the one who speaks his name”. The god became the shepherd, the pilot, the one “who guides men on all the paths” and “the father of the one who has no mother, the husband of the widow”. A compassionate god, he also had a social role to play: he was the defender of the poor and oppressed. Amun, the “judge of the poor man” was the honest magistrate who assured the triumph of the cause of the humble in the corrupt tribunal of human justice.”
The Parables of Jesus: A Commentary(Eerdmans 2000), Arland J. Hultgren
“Just as the misfortunes are typical of those that the unfortunates of the world experience, so there are texts that contain lists of typical acts of kindness towards them–and which commend these acts–in various literatures of the world. In the eighth-century-B.C. Akkadian Counsels of Wisdom a sage teaches that one should give food, drink, and clothing to those in need. Other literatures include the Egyptian Book Of The Dead (125: A person being judged says, “I have given bread to the hungry, water to the thirsty, clothes to the naked and a boat to him who was boatless”), the Mandaean Ginza (2.36.13-17: “If you see one who hungers, feed him, someone who thirsts, give him to drink; if you see one naked, place a garment on him and clothe him. If you see a prisoner, who is believing and upright, obtain a ransom and free him”), and more…As indicated above, there is nothing particularly Christian about the six works of kindness that those on the right have done; they belong to the world of moral reflection and behavior in various cultures, including those prior to the ministry of Jesus.”
Osiris: Death and Afterlife of a God(Wiley, 2008), Bojana Mojsov
“The same moral ideals were asserted on the stelae set up in the cemetery of Abydos. A man professed the following in his epitaph: “I gave bread to the hungry and clothes to the naked and ferried across in my own boat him who could not cross the water. I was a father to the orphan, a husband to the widow, a shelter from the wind to them that were cold. I am one who spoke good and told good. I earned my subsistence in Ma’at.””
Ancient Egyptian Literature Vol. III(University of California Press, 1980), Miriam Lichtheim:
“(I) Speech of the prophet of Osiris, the royal scribe, Wennofer, born of Nephthys, justified:
I was a good shelter for the needy,
One on whom every man could lean.
I was one who welcomed the stranger,
A helpful advisor, excellent guide.
I was one who protected the weak from the strong,
So as to be a ferryboat for everyone.”
So helping the poor and weak was seen as something god supported in some ancient Near Eastern cultures. In ancient Egyptian religion you would be judged for how you lived and treated other people. The “Good Shepherd” who cares for and protects the weak and needy was something that was a part of ancient Near Eastern culture before Christianity.
The point, nightshadetwine, seems to clearly be that not only did Christianity say that “help poor good”, but the idea was that God himself was one of those very poor people you see on the streets and that turning your back on them was as if you had turned your back on the same God who was in their place.
I don’t know why Jimmy was downvoted. Jesus was born in lowly circumstances and laid in a feeding trough. Mary and Joseph appeared to be poor (Lk 2:22). He was itinerant (“the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head” — Mt. 8:20), his family thought he was crazy (Mk 3.21), he was buried in a borrowed tomb, etc…
And Mt 25:40 says, “And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’”
This runs parallel to the idea in Ezekiel 9:11, “For thus says the Lord God: I myself will search for my sheep, and will seek them out…”
Yeah, I understand that. And I can see why that’s appealing to a lot of people. My point though was that god wanting people to help the poor and needy isn’t unique to Christianity. The concept of the “Good Shepherd” who protects the poor and weak goes back to earlier ancient Near Eastern religions.
Nightshadetwine, assuming I’m reading Jimmy correctly, he’s not disagreeing that other religions put emphasis on helping the poor. He’s arguing that the difference between Christianity and religions that preceded it was the reason why we should help the poor.
Oh, & the Ancients had the concept ( at various degrees of allegorization ) of Jupiter (disguising himself as a poor traveller, to test the hospitality of mortals – see Ovids tale of Baucis & Philemon.
But, then compare with the legend of St. Martin & his cloak. Rather more intense, & the concept of the Incarnation is central to why.
Not that non-westerners are incapable of compassion ( a rather inhospitable assumption ) but the implications differ.
If nightshadetwine is correct, this undercuts a big claim of the book. Separate from Jesus being poor and sacrificed, the book claims that the idea of charity and helping the poor/weak would not be as it is today without Christianity. If other cultures had very strong support for such ideas, that claim isn’t as obvious.
Holland doesn’t say that Christian cultures were the only ones with “very strong support for such ideas”. So no, that doesn’t undermine what he actually argues. Others have already pointed out the problems with that that other person said. How about you actually read the book if you want to critique it.
Holland argues that Christianity caused many of the values and concerns that we have today. The smaller claim is just that Christianity had casual value in our history. But there’s a more extensive claim in Holland—that there’s something special or unique about Christianity that caused the Western values that differentiated the West from the rest of the world. Without Christianity, we wouldn’t have Western values.
An alternative theory would involve other circumstances of history rather than Christianity that caused our current values. In this story, many religions put in the same circumstances would have developed in the same way and would have caused the same outcomes. If non-Christian cultures had similar values and concerns, it seems more plausible that Christianity was not some unique force, but other circumstances could be the more important factors.
Charity isn’t really the best example of this because it seems more clear that Christian beliefs, circumstances aside, directly caused charitable behavior. So, the value of nightshadetwine’s information is just that it weakens Holland’s display of how special Christianity was.
If instead of Christianity, worship of the gods that nightshadetwine mentioned had spread across the Roman Empire, and these people did charity while the Romans did not…then at least when it comes to charity, Christianity was less important as a unique force of charity than simply replacing the charityless Roman gods with more charitable ones. This would mean it wasn’t simply the new ideas of Christianity that increased charity, but replacing the charityless romans with any one of the pro-charity religious-cultural beliefs.
Moving away from charity. As far as circumstances that caused Western values. Holland clearly understands the importance of the legacy of the Roman Empire for the forming barbarian kingdoms. Many of them may have fought Rome, but after it fell, they still used its symbols as a form of legitimacy. They worshiped what had become the Roman religion—Catholicism. This weird dynamic created a de facto separation of church and state: the Roman church and the kings of Europe. Holland explains well how theologians, over time, took early Christian ideas and developed them until many years later we have modern Western values. But, lots of religions and cultures had similar ideas. What they didn’t have was a competitive group of lords using the symbols and religion of a former empire for legitimacy while that religion maintained independence as a supranational organization. They didn’t have these separate institutions that were the Catholic church and the kingdoms. If Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, whatever founding religious doctrine and scripture, by happenstance of history, fell into such a situation, then they may have focused on the pieces of their religions that could lend support to maintaining their religious institution’s independence and influence separate from regional kingdoms. Holland does a good job showing the plausibility of Christianity as a key cause to Western values, but this political dynamic is also plausibly the important factor, shaping Christianity and its theology in such a way that eventually led to modern Western values.
I didn’t say that Holland said “that Christian cultures were the only ones with “very strong support for such ideas””. But, he didn’t have to say that for what other cultures thought on charity to be relevant to the book.
Once again you’re making long counterarguments against something that exists only in your head and is not the argument of Holland’s book. Stop cluttering up the comments section here with this straw manning.
Holland makes a case for the causal significance of Christianity for the West (I wouldn’t say it’s ‘just’ the ‘minor’ claim), i.e. what actually happened in the past. That is the basic task of a historian. For that reason, other cultures are indeed not relevant, or only so insofar as they influenced events in the West. Likewise, Holland doesn’t need to get into such counterfactuals as you mention; the thesis must stand on the evidence of what actually happened.
The claim that there is something special about Christianity seems controversial only if you have an anti-Christian bias: you don’t want Christianity credited with anything you value (such as Western values). Perhaps this is also why you label this his more “extensive” claim. The response should be to pick Holland’s actual evidence apart (if you can), not lose yourself in counterfactual ifs. This is an odd sort of “Whiggish counterfactual history” where you take other historical cultures and contexts and speculate on how they, too, could have led to the one result that, on our actual timeline, was decisively shaped by Christianity.
As Holland himself points out in Dominion, ‘religion’ is not a neutral category but itself a Christian-derived way of ordering the world. The thought-experiment about Buddhists, Muslims or Hindus finding themselves in similar historical circumstances and thus being able to mobilise “the pieces” of their faith that would lead to an outcome as in Europe is to read all religions as essentially different versions of the same Christianity master copy (apart from the fact that plenty of other cultures from time to time had their feuding warlords).
“The response should be ….”
well, mine is that Holland has kicken in a wide open door. A big fat book on a thesis like
“Christianity credited with ….. Western values”
is about as pioneering as 21st Century research on the Law of Snellius and possibly less so. I mean, The Netherlands have been dominantly christian for more than a millennium. So how could christianity not be a major influence on an atheist Dutchman like me? I don’t need 600 pages to find the correct answer. Does anyone?
FrankB: You may well find this thesis perfectly obvious, but that is far from the general view. The version of history where Christianity is a reactionary force opposed to the progress from the Enlightenment on is a mainstream idea, and in the intellectual salons of our day it is being reinforced by luminaries like Pinker, Grayling and Greenblatt confidently spouting crass nonsense about history to wide applause.
Moreover, I suspect that even those who would give Christianity its historical dues could not easily account for the causal chain the way Holland does in Dominion.
“The version of history where Christianity is a reactionary force opposed to the progress from the Enlightenment on is a mainstream idea”
Not among christians, I bet, only among New Atheists. But New Atheism is not mainstream, neither in Europe nor in The USA. It’s just loud-mouthed and annoying.
Those New Atheists who hold the false Conflict Thesis won’t read Holland’s book anyway; only people who recognize the important role of christianity will. So the book preaches the obvious to its own choir. Which I find unimpressive.
But if you enjoy it I wish you all the fun.
FrankB: Good for you that you don’t need to waste time on a book whose thesis you already agree with and whose arguments you somehow already know. But do allow for the possibility that some readers don’t just read books that speak to their preconceived ideas, but are actually interested in the history, find it surprising and illuminating and are less familiar with the impact of Gregory of Nyssa, the Donatists, St Elizabeth, the Hussites, Benjamin Ley, Nietzsche, John Lennon etc. than you no doubt are.
“whose arguments you somehow already know”
That “somehow” is paying attention at (secular) school and later to other sources. There I learned about Dutch christians like St Bonifatius, St Willibrord, Geert Groote, Desiderius Erasmus, Menno Simonsz, Jacobus Arminius, Franciscus Gomarus, Abraham Kuiper etc. etc. Check https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorie:Nederlands_theoloog for a nice long list.
The idea that those people shaped the christian mind in The Netherlands is as preconceived as the idea that Ohm’s Law describes electricity. But sure, I will allow you to read a 600 pages book on that topic too. What’s more, I hope you’ll enjoy it. Now I hope you’ll allow me to doubt you’ll learn something fundamentally new and that you’ll understand that for me a Wikipedia page suffices.
FrankB: Well, it certainly sounds like the Dutch school curriculum goes into impressive detail on matters of theology – good for you and your nation’s sense of cultural moorings. But that is hardly the general state of affairs, and theology is not the same as the history of such ideas.
Dominion treats more than Dutch theologians and not just theology in the strict sense (as it moves from Xerxes to Lennon). I doubt most people who talk about our Judeo-Christian values would be able to account for how they evolved historically. Certainly, no review of the book seems to have charged Holland with [yawn] stating the bleedin’ obvious.
The Egyptians had the Golden Rule 2,000 years before Christ (“Old Testament Parallels”, Matthews & Benjamin).
Having it and living it are two different things.
Whether they had it (or lived) it is irrelevant to Holland’s argument. He goes into some detail about the ways in which Christian charity etc were not unique before looking at the unique elements of these principles. It’s the latter that are key to his argument.
Also the thing is it’s not the Egyptian religious systems that carried the Golden Rule throughout the West (and even the world beyond that).
The same with Buddhism – while a major world religion, just a headcount of who first heard about the Golden Rule from Whom would show the impact of Christianity – which is, as I understand it what Holland is arguing is simply overlooked by much secularism.
Great review, thanks! Do you know Larry Siedentop’s “Inventing the Individual”? If so, how does this one compare? I had mixed feelings about Siedentop’s book.
One fact of ancient slavery (and, really, the 19th century version too) that too many people ignore is its connection with warfare. Rome was a military state. In its constant warfare, it defeated many armies, and was faced with many surrendering enemy soldiers. It did not have a vast prison complex to house them until a treaty, like modern states do. So the default option was to kill them all. But soon enough the defeated were offered the choice: die, or be my slave. As a slave, your life was forfeit; you belonged wholly to your conqueror and he could exercise his battlefield prerogative to kill you later at will. But it did allow the defeated to live. In this context, to condemn slavery entirely is equivalent to saying “the only option for the defeated is death”–which would sound cruel to Roman ears just like it does to our own.
I’m not saying slavery was good; only that it exists in a certain social and political context very different from our own, and that context should be understood before we condemn it.
that’s pretty silly. it’s like saying armed robbery or extortion exists as an alternative to murder: one of the main purposes of waging war in the first place was to acquire slaves.
“A large number of them are, like me, ex-Christians, but ones who seem still mentally entangled in their former faith.”
Garrison Keillor once said of Lake Wobegon that everyone there was either Lutheran or Catholic: even the atheists. Is was either the Lutheran or the Catholic God they didn’t believe in.
There is much truth in this. I am very familiar with the Evangelical Protestant Atheist, who manages to be even more tiresome than the practicing Evangelical Protestant. This sort of Atheist is only to happy to lecture me, a Lutheran, on what he imagines to be Christian doctrine. I have been accused, when I describe bog standard Lutheran doctrine, of making it up. It is simply beyond the realm of possibilities to the Evangelical Protestant Atheist mind.
The thing of it is, if an Evangelical Protestant Atheist is uninterested in a discussion of Lutheran doctrine, that is no skin off my teeth. But at that point, either acknowledge that there is more to Christianity than the Evangelical Protestantism, or shut up. Evangelical Protestants have been telling us for the past forty years that they represent “Christianity,” and therefore other traditions are not Real True Christians. This is a Big Lie. If you don’t believe Evangelical Protestants on other things, why do you believe them on this?
I’ve thought of making this my next history. I was highly disappointed in Holland’s “In the Shadow of the Sword,” a thoroughly muddled and sensationalist account akin to Jesus mythicism, but leveled against Islam. Not to mention that it’s mostly not about Islam, being mostly a history of the Byzantium and Persia prior to Islam and squeezes Islam into the last quarter of the book. It spends page after page on St. Simeon and doesn’t even mention Abu Bakr. The Forge of Christendom was pretty good, although I got tired of the “end of days” drinking game in that book.
The issue of secular/religion divide seems critical throughout the history of Christianity. We face often people like Constantine, Charlemagne, Fulk III, William the Conqueror, and Richard the Lionhearted (and countless others). These were cruel people in a cruel world who found “redemption” through Christian belief, patronage, and/or pilgrimage. Paul deserves a good deal of the credit/blame for this symbiosis, seeing Christianity as almost solely a message of redemption from ethical lapses of any kind as long as you accept the message, and considers the chief danger such ethical lapses pose to be their perception among unbelievers. This allowed powerful men to patronize it quite easily despite their utilization of theft and murder to acquire their position, just as it allows American evangelicals today to back the likes of Donald Trump.
If there was an invention of homosexuality, I highly doubt it was Paul who invented it. Paul social proofed like crazy about just about everything else, including other sexual norms (see 1 Cor 5:1). He firmly rejected homosexuality, but his reasoning likely lay in the way it was perceived within the Hellenistic culture he grew up in.
Overall, this appears to be a testable hypothesis as to whether we can really claim to owe, say, the end of slavery to Christianity. But Christianity can hardly claim bans in Japan in the 16th Century or China in the 18th Century were motivated by Christianity. Slavery was abolished for a number of different reasons, some more noble than others. Ironically, one of the enduring legacies of Christianity may be socialist movements, which borrow heavily from the teachings of Jesus and to a lesser extent, early Christian practice. The fact that the 1918 Soviet Constitution quoted scripture, while the US Constitution doesn’t, is one of the more dramatic examples of this irony.
I disagree that there is something sensationalist about “In the Shadow of the Sword”. Holland has a style which can seem to highlight the dramatic and lurid, but that serves to emphasise the points and, as Tim writes in the review above, Holland is careful about his statements and clearly distinguishes between facts and hear-say.
ITSOTS is about the origins of Islam, not a history of Islam per se. It makes perfect sense that it traces the history of Byzantium and Persia etc., thus showing the strands of politics and thought that gave rise to Islam and why the traditional view that Islam emerged almost ex nihilo is almost certainly wrong. The book is also emphatic that the historical Mohammad did exist, so there is no mythicism about it.
That a history book shows that conventionally held views about historical events are in need of revision based on new evidence is surely what you would expect from a proper, modern history book.
ITSOTS doesn’t get off the hook just because it concedes that Muhammad existed. For example, Tom claims that the site of Mecca was handpicked by Abd al-Malik, and makes much of the fact that we have no record of Mecca pre-Islam. But Abd al-Malik reigned a mere 50-75 years after Muhammad’s death, and he “picked” an abominable spot for it, being to the south of Medina far from his power base in Damascus. Not to mention he had Muslim rivals, chiefly Shia, who would have relished a chance to challenge his reign by pointing out such an embarrassing gaffe. But no, Mecca was Mecca and that was that, and no one even thought to argue the point. The confusion experienced on the site of Mecca can be easily chalked up to something like the round Earth in the middle ages: something ordinary people may not have known, but the educated and those closest to Muhammad’s inner circle did. He spends a lot of time as well casting shade on the Hadith, which is obviously fair, but the Quran itself seems nearly as solid as any New Testament work, if it doesn’t really tell us that much about the history of Islam. The Constitution of Medina, Tom also concedes, is a reliable early source, and Christians would be jealous of the many near contemporary references within a rival faith (Christianity) to “the Prophet among the Sarasins.” Lastly, throwing out the official biography of Muhammad entirely (beyond a brief intro in the first chapter) because it was written late, and focusing instead on Byzantium and Persia for 3/4ths of the book is excessive. St. Simeon died over 100 years before Muhammad was born, was clearly a Christian, and nothing in his story seems relatable at all to anything in Islam. Peroz’s defeat at the hands of the White Huns (dramatic and entertaining as it is) also happened over a century before the Muslim conquest and Persian fortunes continued to ebb and flow quite a bit in the intervening period. As murky as Muslim sources are, hewing more closely to them still tells us a lot more about Islam than focusing so much on Justinian.
Please keep on topic. This article is about Dominion.
There is ample literature on the points you mention; this isn’t just some flight of fancy by Holland.
I don’t want to discourage you from reading Dominion – I am as enthusiastic about it as Tim in the article above – but if you didn’t like reading about Byzantines and Persians before the 7th C., you will probably not like the dizzying sweep of centuries in Dominion, either.
The writing is as engaging and entertaining as ITSOTS (if you at least liked that aspect) and, in my opinion, as well argued, but there we clearly disagree.
” But Christianity can hardly claim bans in Japan in the 16th Century or China in the 18th Century were motivated by Christianity. ”
I do not know what “Christianity” claims ( do you, perhaps, mean “claimed by Christianity”? ) but historically, it would be hard to argue that the West ( especially, in the case of the Japan, Portuguese Jesuits ) did not have a massive effect on both countries at the time. If nothing else, the widespread trading of Japanese slaves by the Portuguese functioned as negative reinforcement ( & was critizised as having a negative effect on conversion )
Under what circumstances would it be argued that the impact of the Portuguese Jesuits on the Japanese was “massive?” The Japanese were highly suspicious of Christians who they saw as Invaders and had the Jesuits expelled. The fact that they took notice of the Jesuits enough to expel them at roughly the same time they abolished slavery is hardly evidence of the significant positive impact that would be required for Holland’s thesis to have any application to Japan at all.
Portugese influence was massive enough to be considered an invasion. & to influence Japanese culture in a variety of ways, from tempura, to tobacco, to the Japanese name for trousers. They were also the main exporters of Japanese slaves, while at the same time having a vocal debate over the rectitude of the institution of slavery itself.
“….any application to Japan at all” ? Is that so.
What exactly about tempura, tobacco, trousers and slavery is typical christian? Either you are able to answer this question with some specifics or you are moving the goalposts – moving away from “how christianity shaped the Japanese mind”. Then according to your line of arguing the worldwide popularity of Coca Cola and McDonalds are also examples of christian influences, which is simply silly.
Abolishing slavery for your own people is one thing. It happened in parts of Western Europe in medieval times. Abolishing a highly useful or lucrative practice for a bunch of foreigners most of you have never seen and who share with you next to nothing culturally, for moral reasons, is something else. Japan’s attitude to weak foreigners that could be used as slaves was evident in the 20th century from Korea and China to Indonesia and the Burma railway.
Thing is, abolishing slavery for ones own people was not exactly a common thing either.
As for WWII slavery, Imperial Japan had a fairly clear source of , Western, inspiration – Nazi Germany.
As for Micael G. Smith & FrankB, they seem to be arguing against someone claiming that the abolishment of slavery has only ever been due to the direct influence of the Christian churches.
I am not that someone: neither, as far as I can tell, is Holland.
I certainly agree its not common, the fact that parts of medieval Europe were the first ‘civilisation’ to do it supports the Christian hypothesis.
As for Japan, blaming Nazi Germany is a bit tenuous. Japan’s attitudes to foreigners were on display before 1933, let alone whatever point in the war it became clear the Nazis were using slave-labour. Even if you could establish that time-travel causation I’d like to know why they should have been so influenced.
Nor am I ‘that person’ they might be arguing against.
This whole debate seems more predicated on what is being debated. No one seems to be able to pick a thesis and stick with it, which means that it says a lot more about us and our biases than about what actually happened. I prefer my historians to just tell the story and not allow a need to be provocative to color the narrative, especially if they insist on moving the goalposts as soon as they realize their attempt to be provocative rendered their thesis indefensible. For that reason, I will not be reading Dominion.
Good luck with finding a historian who can do that. All histories have ideological biases and all of them, to some extent or another, are producing a narrative of a particular “colour”. I have no idea what your “moving the goalposts” comment refers to, but Holland is not pretending to be presenting a bald narrative. He is doing something else – making a case about what happened and why as an examination of the origins of certain key elements in modern western culture and society. This is a perfectly legitimate enterprise.
Tim, here’s a fairly typical example from your blog that illustrates what I’m talking about: “Today, the idea that we should care for others, help the weak, give to assist the needy and feel sorrow at the afflictions of the vulnerable and exploited is thought to be normal and obvious. TV ads for charities and aid organisations do not have to argue all humans have a right to dignity by merit of being human, they simply assume we all understand this. So it is difficult for us to imagine how radical it was for people like Gregory and Macrina or the others Holland highlights in this part of his book (Martin of Tours, Paulinus of Nola) to help the helpless purely because they recognised the paradox of a divine Christ as a suffering human being in these fellow humans.” Why did you need to add the language beginning with the word “purely,” thereby turning the whole sentence into an oddly jarring non-sequitur? I’m not convinced that identifying the suffering of Jesus with the suffering of the oppressed and afflicted is primarily why Christians believe in the inherent worth of human beings and compassion, let alone the rest of us. That’s what I mean by “moving the goalposts.” You have to find something unique about Christianity that distinguishes it from the concepts of noblesse oblige, cultural solidarity, natural law, and Stoic philosophy, which have plenty of precedent in the Greco-Roman world and all of which Christianity borrowed heavily from or simply tapped into the pre-existing moral architecture of our species in similar ways. The first two sentences exist purely for the sake of making the thesis as jarring and provocative as possible, like a breathless article about particle physics that begins with: “Everything you know is WRONG.” The third is the inevitable climb down. “Christianity was a major influence on modern morality” just isn’t enough. Our moral instincts have to be “primarily and fundamentally the product of Christianity.” Anything less just wouldn’t be provocative enough.
As to historians being colored (betraying my American spelling) by historical themes, a biography of a 19th or 20th century personage or a discrete moment in 18th century human history is often going to have a multitude of sources to draw from and while some thematic guesswork is involved, it has to align with the wide array of information available on the subject. Also the theme doesn’t have to be sustained across centuries or in this case, millennia. The reality is that if you’re going to write a popular history about obscure late antiquity and medieval personages, you’d better come up with a provocative thesis if you want it to sell. I suspect that’s the real issue here.
I didn’t “add” it, I included it. And I did so to make my point.
It isn’t a non-sequitur. My point is that regarding the helpless as worthy of charity and compassion purely because of recognising in them a god who suffered as a human like them was completely radical. Because it was.
I quite clearly and specifically said it was “people like Gregory and Macrina or the others Holland highlights in this part of his book (Martin of Tours, Paulinus of Nola)” did so. Because they tell us this themselves. Try reading what I actually said before you go off half cocked and start flinging around terms like “non sequitur”.
Learn to read more carefully.
Bollocks. Not all histories have the same approach or even the same objective. You just don’t like what Holland is arguing and are looking for ways to dismiss it. Go away.
@MichaelGS: “all of which Christianity borrowed heavily from or simply tapped into …”
So what? How is this a problem for the statement that “christianity shaped the western mind”? Worse for you, “tapping into ….” is actually how “shaping minds” works. Ask any competent teacher.
I stand by my criticism I formulated elsewhere on this page, but yours is rather silly.
The Japanese WWII army was strongly influenced by Germany ( very much in contrast to WWI ), in part due to leaders of Imperial Japan having studied at German universities:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany%E2%80%93Japan_relations#Rapprochement,_Axis_and_World_War_II_(1920%E2%80%931945)
“As German universities were considered superior to their French counterparts, 80% of Japanese students going abroad thus chose Germany. In fact, many of the men who emerged as leaders of the Pan-Asia movement in Japan in the 1930s studied at German universities in the 1920s, which led the Japanese historian Hotta Eri to note there was a strong German influence on the discourse of Japanese Pan-Asianism.”
Slavery, in this case, was a consequence of Nazi ideology: Nazy ideology influenced the Japanese. No time machine required.
That being said, I would certainly agree with you that Nazi Germany was not the only source of Imperial slavery; Japan having traditions of such things of their own.
The 1920s predates the Nazis though Ian.
Here is a quote from a Japanese newspaper editor writing in 1906 about the Korean people that would soon be conquered:
“There is nothing especially different about them. They all look just like the Japanese, of the same Oriental race, with the same colouring and physique, and the same black hair. … Considering that the appearance and build of the Koreans and Japanese are generally the same, that the structure and grammar of their language are exactly the same, and that their ancient customs resemble each other’s, you might think that the Japanese and the Koreans are the same type of human being. …
If you look closely, they appear to be a bit vacant, their mouths open and their eyes dull, somehow lacking… In the lines of their mouths and faces you can discern a certain looseness, and when it comes to sanitation or sickness they are loose in the extreme. Indeed, to put it in the worst terms, one could even say that they are closer to beasts than to human beings.”
You can see Japanese attitudes to even their closest geographical and genetic neighbours much earlier than the Nazis turned up.
By that, I assume you meant the 1920ties predates the Nazis seizing power, Chris?
( Considering the National Socialists assumed the name in 1920 )
But that is an incidential detail, really.
German ideology, including Nazism, had a more than tenuous effect on Japanese politics. This is hardly a bold statement. As for why, there was a plethora of reasons, ranging from wanting an ( modern ) ideological basis for trans-Japanese imperialism, to needing an active ally against the Russians.
As for the quote about unhygienic Koreans, it seems unfortunately typical for the period. Of course, some groups, such as Nazi Gernany, took things a step further.
Of course, Japan had a history of enslaving Koreans, but they, just as the Germans with the Slavs. eventually stopped doing so. In the early 20tieth century, when Japan had started annexing their neighbours, one of the first thing they abolished in those areas was slavery, because it was considered outdated by modern societies. One of the things Nazi Germany did was introduce a new version of modernity, one that included large-scale enslavement as a part of “racial” genocide.
I am not saying that the Japanese were passive victims of German cultural imperialism, any more than, for example, the Germans themselves were culturally colonized by American ideas of Manifest Destiny when they formulated the concept of Lebensraum. But WWI Japan recognized the Hague Convention, & WWII Japan ritually consumed the livers of POWS. Part of which was due to who they elected to be influenced by.
What I would say, and I’m not going to argue with anyone, because then they just get offended and claim I’m arguing something else, is that Christianity built upon and shaped pre-existing basic sentiments of compassion and care, which are ubiquitous throughout the ancient and non-Christian world and even the Bible has NUMEROUS examples of non-Christian, non-Jewish people engaging in such behavior. Such ideas had reached a level of abstraction of the inherent worth and dignity of human beings as articulated in Greek natural law and Stoic philosophy by the time Christian influencers arrived on the scene.
Paul and other Christians accelerated and helped to popularize this trend by holding up as an example Jesus, who suffered and died (so his followers believe) in service to everyone, not just a select few (I think this is actually a more central statement of Jesus’s impact than that his followers identified his suffering with the suffering of the oppressed and afflicted, which seems to have emerged later as an explicit realization, and only served to reinforce the pre-existing understanding of Jesus as a paragon of compassion that Christians should emulate). This paragon of service and compassion for others allowed Christians to tap into their own existing instincts of care and compassion in a way that exceeded the pre-existing duty to one’s family or culture. It created a new super-culture that cut across pre-existing cultural barriers. Eventually, it came to encompass most of the western world.
Yet this central message only came to dominate the thinking of a select few. The vast majority of Christians, and in particular the state powers of the late antiquity and medieval period, still allowed selfish, cruel, nepotistic, and nationalistic thinking to dominate their everyday lives, much as their pagan Roman predecessors had. For these, Christianity offered an escape hatch: remission of sin through belief and penance. So instead of dominating Christians’ thinking, Jesus’s example became something of a nagging argument that rolled around in the back of Christians’ minds, occasionally breaking out and inspiring a few to small and even great acts of selflessness, a pattern that persists to this day.
Since this argument builds on pre-existing moral architecture, both instinctive and cultural, it’s difficult to ascertain to what extent the influence of Jesus’s example can be distinguished from the influence of our pre-existing moral architecture. As Marx famously pointed out with his opium analogy, often the need for a source of compassionate moral behavior is, if anything, more acute within the post-Christian mind than within the Christian mind. Yet muddling through all of that is a task that even psychologists learned in the nature-nurture divide, let alone historians with no training on the subject, would have difficulty navigating. It seems wise to simply acknowledge that there was an impact and not quibble too much about its depth.
“they seem to be arguing against someone claiming that the abolishment of slavery has only ever been due to the direct influence of the Christian churches.”
No, I didn’t. I asked a question regarding your “Portugese influence was massive enough …..”. It’s totally not clear to me what this has to do with shaping minds, whether western or eastern. As you never answered apparently the answer is “nothing”.
For the sake of clarity: I don’t have any problem with recognizing the direct influence of christian churches from say the 18th Century on when it comes to abolishing slavery. I do reject something like “christianity is intrinsically anti-slavery”, but afaI can see nobody here argued for that.
“I am not that someone”
Great. I never wrote you were.
I presented examples of just how much of an impact the Portuguese actually had on Japan at that time.
“What exactly about tempura, tobacco, trousers and slavery is typical christian?”
The first 3 were introduced to Japan by Westerners.
“Then according to your line of arguing the worldwide popularity of Coca Cola and McDonalds are also examples of christian influences, which is simply silly.”
No, they are a sign of Western influence.
Example:
-This isolated cultures elders got the idea of abolishing slavery independently from all others, while sharing a coke in their local McDonalds-
““I am not that someone”
Great. I never wrote you were.”
& I hope you can see why I might think you did.
My point was that choosing Japan of that time as an example of a culture unconnected to the West ( let alone Michael G. Smiths “or China in the 18th Century “! ) might not be exactly optional.
A well-argued, balanced and original review (as one has come to expect here 🙂 and thus entirely worthy of Dominion; thanks Tim.
Also nice to see you touch upon the Grayling interview, which is indeed worth watching in its entirety, though perhaps not so good for one’s blood pressure.
While examples abound – not least on this site – of New Atheists getting history wrong, this interview is perhaps the most clear-cut case of such ignorance on parade. It is baffling to see a professor, who has even written a history book on philosophy, exhibit such a basic failure to read up on history.
The kindest explanation I can come up with (apart from Grayling being ideologically invested in these outdated ideas, as Holland suggests) is that many people, not least public intellectuals of the New Atheist kind, simply haven’t grasped that history is a body of knowledge in constant development just like any other field of academic research.
Speaking as an active Christian, this book sounds really interesting. I’ll check it out. Thanks for the review.
Another great review, Tim. Here’s hoping Holland returns the favor when you get around to publishing your book.
Out of curiosity, is there any chance you could recommend other books that touch on the ways Christianity influenced western thought into modernity? Since this topic can veer into apologetic territory, I trust your recommendations more than a fellow Christian.
I expect Holland’s thesis to be resisted by a lot of atheists, partly because of the attitude that religion must be all bad all the time, but also for a more legitimate reason: We are constantly being told by the apologists that Christianity (or the “Judeo-Christian tradition”, whatever that is) is the inventor and custodian of all that is good and sustaining of Western civilization (and I expect these same apologists to therefore seize upon the book with glee). The apologists’ argument generally continues: Therefore if we abandon Christianity (or the “Judeo-Christian tradition”) Western civilization will proceed to go to hell in a hand-cart.
I think the fears (read: fear-mongering) of the apologists, and with it the atheist reaction, is unjustified: Wherever the ideas came from, we’ve seen that secularism, and universal human rights, and justice for the poor, and so on, are just damn good ones, that help make modern life less violent and more secure. This being so, why wouldn’t we retain these values for their own sakes, without requiring theological justification? (And of course, it’s a telling irony that the among the people working hardest to tear them down are those who shout “Jesus!” the loudest).
And what do you know, Holland’s name is already being taken in vain by the Usual Suspects: https://answersingenesis.org/world-religions/seven-ways-atheists-are-religious/.
(Search on “Holland”)
The question is always, “Why?”
There is nothing self-evidently wrong with slavery, and plenty of places around the world where it is still practiced.
Why shouldn’t the strong dominate the weak, so long as they’re strong enough to do so?
Utilitarian justifications for moral behavior only last until there’s greater personal advantage from not being moral. It’s easy to be good when it costs you nothing.
I have read of German soldiers who refused to kill Jewish (and other) civilians, and were themselves promptly executed. Doing the right thing, when it costs everything, is not easy.
Part of the impact early Christians had was because when there was a plague they’d be there helping the sufferers, even though it cost them their lives, when the families of the victims had abandoned them.
I agree with Tim about Tom Holland’s book. From my own knowledge, I couldn’t find any errors either. The one improvement I would have suggested had the author shown me the book before publication would have been to change the chapter on Science. Had Holland, instead of meandering through Krafft-Ebing and homosexuality, instead examined the development of eugenics in the late 19th and early 20th century, it would have provided a much stronger link to the following chapter.
To summarise, eugenics was founded by Francis Galton (Charles Darwin’s cousin) and attracted many intellectuals with the idea of improving humanity by selective breeding and the removal of inferior stock. This, even in democratic countries like the USA, UK and Sweden, led to sterilisation of those considered to be inadequate; see, for example, the US Supreme Court ruling in 1927:
https://theprivacyreport.com/2009/06/25/three-generations-of-imbeciles-are-enough/
Holland does discuss Hitler’s position in the next chapter (p 459 et seq) which drew on the same attitude.
Last year the BBC produced a two-part programme entitled “Eugenics: Science’s Greatest Scandal”. The first part is available on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paFuyPV8HJU and is well worth watching to see just how many UK intellectuals of the late 19th and early 20th Century were eugenicists.
Eugenics has never completely disappeared since then and the leading atheist philosopher Peter Singer advocates infanticide; not very different from those near the beginning of Holland’s book who exposed unwanted babies on mountainsides.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer
I’ve found through personal correspondence with Holland that he is a wide ranging and voracious reader who had to be very selective about what elements he went into detail on and which details he included, otherwise an already long book would have been immense and unpublishable. I strongly suspect, from other things he has said, that he is well aware of the material you mention.
Huge minus for the book if it actually states that Galadriel is a queen… she is not and even Tolkien angrily pointed it out when he read an early script for a Lord of the Rings movie that was never made.
I don’t think that would be a “huge” minus at all. And Galadriel is not mentioned by Holland – that’s my observation on Tolkien, not his. I haven’t read The Lord of the Rings in about 30 years, so apologies if I have forgotten tiny, insignificant trivia like Galadriel not actually being a queen.
It was kind of interesting how both Tom Holland and A.C. Grayling touched a bit on “the Western miracle”. I’ve been studying the “rise of the West”. Otherwise known as, ‘the Great Divergence’. And there is a book by Kenneth Pomeranz titled “The Great Divergence: Europe, Asia and the Making of the Modern World Economy”. Which essentially explains that what we call the “Western miracle” or why “the West beat the rest” as we think of it didn’t actually happen until about the year 1800 onward (or 19th century as you will). Which is into complete contrast to earlier explanations which argued that the Western miracle happened around 1500 A.D. onward (because of the Discovery of the New World, the ‘Scientific Revolution’, the Printing Revolution all happened around this period, etc.).
But what I thought was interesting, was that the transition for ‘the Great Divergence’ happened much, much earlier. Economic historians have noticed that in the High Middle Ages, something known as “The Little Divergence” began to appear in Western Europe. Also, recent research by Jan Luitan Van Zandan also indicates that the transition to the Industrial Revolution (i.e. “the Great Divergence”) happened around the year 1000 A.D. and went all the way up to the 19th century. (from: “The Long Road to the Industrial Revolution: The European Economy in a Global Perspective, 1000-1800 review”).
I bring this up because A.C. Grayling doesn’t seem to understand that the “Christian Middle Ages” wasn’t the “Dark Ages” of societal stagnation as he made it out to be during the discussion on the Unbelievable program…
A very interesting review, I think you made me buy the book.
On a side note, any chance you will review “The Scientist in the Early Roman Empire” by Dr. Richard Carrier, Distinguished Professor of Blogging at the University of WordPress?
I have an offer by someone who has more of a background in ancient science than me to do a guest blog on Carrier’s (you guessed it) distortions of the history of science. I’m hoping they will be able to produce that in the next few months.
Brilliant review of a brilliant book although I as you are not entirely convinced of Tom Holland’s argument regarding reformatio, and the ancient world’s view of sexuality.
I would like to see a debate between Tom Holland and James Davidson regarding sexuality in the ancient world.
I have not read the book, nor do I claim expertise in history, but I have two reservations with this narrative.
First, is the claim that we are all swimming in Christian thinking and shaped our world view perhaps one of those motte and bailey claims that have two interpretations, one correct but trivial and the other controversial but wrong? It is correct but also trivial to observe that Christianity has dominated Western civilisation over centuries, and in that sense of course it would have been Christian thinkers who have come up with the present Western view of human rights (or, for that matter, modern science). But the interesting controversial claim would be that there is something specifically Christian, that would not or maybe even could not have happened under paganism of some sort, about human rights (or science). And I find it extremely hard to see any evidence for the latter, interesting idea.
Conversely, if the gist here is about Christianity also having produced good in addition to the evils stressed by New Atheism one could likewise ask: Does the good flow from something unique and integral to Christianity or from something that was orthogonal to its theology? And the same for the evil. The idea that the ground state of humanity is sinful, for example, with all the psychological damage that follows from it, can well be argued to be integral to Christian thinking. The idea that we should help the poor not for our own sake but because the poor are fellow humans, on the other hand, is neither very widespread among contemporary Christians nor does it appear to be directly entailed by the theology. At least the way I read German and English translations of the New Testament, Jesus advises to do it because we need to build up credit in heaven towards our judgement, what with the end of the world being imminent.
Second, this post seems somewhat eurocentric. Given the great diversity of even what very little of Indian and Chinese philosophy I am aware of I wonder about the concept of renewal or the rejection of slavery, for example, being Christian innovations.
I detail some of the evidence. The book has 500+ pages of it.
And the book answers that question. Try reading the book. The whole point of my review is to say “this is a good and thought provoking book and worth reading>” Obviously it’s not the point of my review to lay out every one of its arguments in detail, given that this would require … a book.
Both those statements are totally and ridiculously wrong.
Which ignores the fact he also says we should do it because they are our brothers and sisters etc.
The book also has a subtitle. Read that.
Both those statements are totally and ridiculously wrong.
Okay, just to avoid any misunderstandings here. Do you and/or Tom Holland (to your understanding) argue the following?
“No other school of thought except Christianity ever had the idea that one should help others because they are our brothers and sisters, nor would anybody have had that idea without being influenced by Christianity – not Buddhism, not Sikhism, not Greek philosophy if it had continued purely pagan, not Inca imperial ideology, nothing. If the Jesus cult had been exterminated in 100 C.E. this idea would not have developed in Europe and never would be able to develop anywhere else on the planet either.”
More generally I find it rather implausible that millions of people believe something or act in some way because and only because a philosopher or theologian in the same culture came up with the idea. It seems more plausible to me that there are large societal, economic, cultural and political forces at work while a variety of thinkers have a variety of opposing ideas; and then when e.g. slavery has been superseded by a different economic model, making possible its abolition where it still persists, we point to the one philosopher who rejected it before that happened and like to believe that he was the reason as opposed to an early symptom or just lucky to have been available at the right time as an official rationalisation.
The vast majority of mainstream (Lutheran or Catholic) Christians I have met in my home country, for example, believe nothing more concrete than (1) there is a higher intelligence behind the universe, (2) Jesus was a great moral teacher (while ignorant of most of his teachings), and (3) everything will somehow turn out alright after death. All the rest is unformed, and they make it up as they go along. I guarantee most of the Lutherans would be surprised if informed about the whole salvation by works versus salvation by faith controversy; the way we were taught reformation in Lutheran religion classes only focused on being allowed to have a German language bible, not needing a priest to talk to god, and corruption in the church – procedure and power structures, not moral philosophy. And as an atheist learning about what they ‘believe’ I was the only guy in class who actually committed anything the teacher said to memory – the rest were just sitting through it for the money their relatives were going to give them at the confirmation party.
Maybe their predecessors at the time where hanging on Gregory’s ever word? But I think that humans were probably not that different then than they are now, and they would also have picked and chosen rationalisations for what they were going to do anyway.
Can I direct you again to the subtitle of Holland’s book.
I am really sorry I don’t understand. “The making of the Western mind” – does this mean then the idea is that Western civilisation specifically would never have abolished the institution of slavery without Christian theology, but that e.g. Japan would have done so without becoming Christian?
The subtitle makes it perfectly clear that Holland is talking about how western thinking on these matters evolved. So that means Buddhism, Sikhism and Incan ideology are not very relevant here, since they had little to no influence on that evolution. What may have happened if Christianity had not had this influence on western thought and the west had not then had a massive influence on modern global culture is a hypothetical and – like all historical hypotheticals – something that is hard to contemplate beyond pure speculation.
As a Christian, I agree your assessment.
This is post-Christian thinking, that is, it’s an example of what Tim is talking about. Christianity is first and foremost about a historical event, that is, the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. Without this, frankly, all of the other stuff is worthless.
“No other school of thought except Christianity ever had the idea that one should help others because they are our brothers and sisters, nor would anybody have had that idea without being influenced by Christianity – not Buddhism, not Sikhism, not Greek philosophy if it had continued purely pagan, not Inca imperial ideology, nothing. If the Jesus cult had been exterminated in 100 C.E. this idea would not have developed in Europe and never would be able to develop anywhere else on the planet either.”
I don’t think this is what Holland is saying. I haven’t read the book but I doubt that’s what he’s claiming.
We know that helping and caring for other people predates Christianity. Some of the mystery cults had already accepted slaves. Like Christianity, there were some cults that were outside of the polis or state, and some of these cults attracted lower class people and women. They offered personal salvation to anyone regardless of their status in society.
Reading Dionysus: Euripides’ Bacchae and the Cultural Contestations of Greeks, Jews, Romans, and Christians(Mohr Siebeck, 2015), Courtney Friesen:
“Although it is clear that the rites of Bacchus were already well known in Rome prior to 186 BCE, Livy depicts them as having been introduced for the first time by a Greek of low status (graecus ignobilis, 39.8.3)… Indeed, the well-structured organization of the Bacchic cult that transgressed conventional boundaries of gender and class is precisely the aspect targeted in the senatus consultum… In reality, however, the Senate’s actions did not arise from moral concerns but rather, as John North demonstrates, were aimed at the consolidation of its political power because the egalitarian structure of Bacchic groups “evades the normal basis of State control and supervision of religion at all levels.”… In Eretria, an inscription (IG 12.9.192) marks the establishment of an annual procession for Dionysus commemorating political liberation (probably from Ptolemy in 308 BCE) and the establishment of democracy.”
The Dionysian Gospel: The Fourth Gospel and Euripides(Fortress Press, 2017),Dennis R. MacDonald:
“At the City Dionysia, at the theater, Athenians announced the manumission of their slaves (Aeschines 3.41). According to Pausanias, Thebes was home not only to Semele’s tomb but also to a temple to Dionysus Lysios, constructed to celebrate the god’s freeing of captives from Thracians (Desc. 9.16.6). The hypochondriac Artemidorus proposed that dreams of bacchic rites portend liberation for slaves… a liberator, as evidenced in his various cult titles …. This entailed his power to free people from pain and anxiety in the mysteries, it included the ultimate release from the vicissitudes of the mortal experience with the offer of immortality. Dionysiac liberation could also be more immediately tangible, as he delivered from imprisonment and overthrew tyranny and could thus be claimed as a champion of democracy.”
Dionysos(Routledge, 2006), Richard Seaford:
“It is interesting that a female associate of Spartacus in the slave revolt of 73 BC was said to have prophesied about him while she was ‘possessed by Dionysiac rituals’(Plutarch Life of Crassus8.4). Moreover, in Dionysus– and especially in his mystery-cult–we have seen a tendency to destroy boundaries. The Roman authorities deplored the mingling of males and females in the cult, and indeed the effeminacy of male initiates. And the cult may have mingled adherents from very different social classes, thereby seeming to challenge the class structure of the Roman state. In Bacchae Dionysus is said to insist on having worship from everybody, without distinctions…”
The Cult of Isis and Other Mystery Religions in Pompeii and the Roman World, (Classics 304: The Graeco-Roman World – Pompeii, May 9, 2016), Cassidy Meyers:
“Despite all its opposition, the cult of Isis offered much to the ancient Romans and could be well-likened by women… the worship of Isis fit into the lives of many. Epigraphic and literary sources show that “women, children, slaves, freedmen, traders, veterans, soldiers, officers, low and high municipal officials, and members of the imperial family” all adhered to the cult of Isis (Takacs 1995, 6).”
Spartacus(Harvard University Press; 2013), Aldo Schiavone:
“What emerges once again from Diodorus’s account is the relationship between mystery cults and slave rebellion, a common thread running through the whole cycle of great revolts.”
Myths of the Underworld Journey: Plato, Aristophanes, and the ‘Orphic’ Gold Tablets (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2004), Radcliffe Edmonds III:
“The concern with purity was characteristic of the religious movements that arose as a counterculture to the mainstream polis life and religion. Purification rituals that had formerly been performed only in abnormal moments of crisis became a normal practice for those who defined their lives outside the normal order of the society. The claim to superior status by these marginal groups on the grounds of the purity of their life served to compensate for their unsatisfactory status within the social order… The ritual genealogy thus replaces the polis centered family lines as the efficacy of the purification becomes more important for determining one’s place in the cosmos than the ordinary distinctions of gender, family, clan, or polis…”
The Greco-Roman World of the New Testament Era: Exploring the Background of Early Christianity(IVP Academic 1999), James S. Jeffers:
“Another common element of mystery religions was a myth telling how the deity had either defeated his or her enemies or returned to life after death. As the cult member shared in the god’s triumph, he or she was redeemed from the earthly and temporal… in addition to their desire for redemption, they emphasized the pursuit of a sense of oneness with their god and ultimately the attainment of immortality… The religion of the Olympian gods had little impact on the average Greek peasant farmer. These gods, when they took an interest in human affairs, were depicted as being interested in only the affairs of great men or nations. They had no interest in the common people. The mystery religions of Greece, which go back at least to 1500 B.C., appealed to such people.”
Ancient Egypt already had the concept that humanity was created in the image of the creator and every person was “made like his fellow”.
Egyptian Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Goddesses, and Traditions of Ancient Egypt(Oxford University Press, 2004), Geraldine Pinch:
“In spite of this imperfection, the creator was said to have done many things to help humanity. In Coffin Texts 1130, the Lord of All describes his four good deeds. These were to create the four winds to give the breath of life to every body, to make the annual Nile flood so that everyone would get enough food, to create everyone with equal potential, and to make every person’s heart “remember the West.” This last deed implies that from the beginning humans were destined for an eternal life in the Beautiful West, the realm of the dead. A Middle Kingdom text set in the turbulent First Intermediate Period compares humanity with a flock and the (unnamed) creator with the good shepherd who cares for them. “For their sakes He made heaven and earth, and drove away the rapacity of the waters. So that their nostrils should live He made the winds. They are images of Him, come forth from His flesh. For their sakes He rises in heaven. For them He made plants and flocks. . . .””
Moral Values in Ancient Egypt(University of Zurich, 1997), Miriam Lichtheim:
“Understood as being rooted in human nature, grown to maturity during three millennia of recorded practice and discussion, Egyptian ethic possessed an essential rightness because it focused on the basic fact of human interconnectedness, and on the need to make that interconnectedness benefit all segments of the population… Altruism advanced early beyond the reciprocity principle of do ut des by emphasizing the obligation of everyman to care for the poor and disadvantaged, and, altogether, by stressing benevolence toward all… Gradually, belief in a last judgment, and piety, became closely associated with moral thought…
The increasingly sophisticated outlook on human affairs which evolved in the second and first millennia came to include foreign nations as peoples equally human, and partners in the adventures of individual and national existence. The gods above were thought of as shepherds of all mankind… By the formulation of Coffin Text spell 1130, where the sun-god declares “I made every man like his fellow”, and by later formulations as well, the Egyptian made explicit what was implied in his ever repeated teachings on benevolence to all. He recognized the brotherhood of mankind. By this recognition his ethic was an ethic for everyone.”
Voices from Ancient Egypt: An Anthology of Middle Kingdom Writings(British Museum, 1991), R. B. Parkinson:
“This spell is the conclusion of a series about the passage through the Netherworld, the so-called ‘Book of the Two Ways’, and is unique in including a declaration made by the creator god during his cosmic voyage across the sky as the sun. In this he asserts that the order which he created was just and perfect until flawed by man’s deeds, and proclaims his supremacy as originator and maintainer of the world. This ideal order, although described in a cosmic setting, is very much concerned with social justice, and with giving men no cause to prey upon each other.”
Religion in Ancient Egypt: Gods, Myths, and Personal Practice( Cornell University Press, 1991) Byron E. Shafer , John R. Baines , David Silverman , Leonard H. Lesko
“I made the great flood, that the poor man might have power like the great.
This is a deed thereof.
I made every man like his fellow.
I did not command that they do evil.
It is their hearts that disobey what I have said.
This is a deed thereof.”
Even “turning the other cheek” or helping your enemies is found in earlier religions.
From Amenemope to Proverbs, Editorial Art in Proverbs 22,17-23,11(De Gruyter, 2014), Michael V. Fox:
“Immediately after Proverbs’ exordium, the author introduces the important message of social justice: “Do not rob a lowly man, because he is lowly, and do not oppress the poor man in the gate” (22,22). “Lowly” and “poor” are taken from Amenemope, the admonitions are adapted to a local setting in Israel, where the gate is the seat of judgment. In Amenemope there follows a description of the grim fate awaiting the evildoer and an extraordinary exhortation to aid him rather than seeking vengeance and becoming like him. This noble principle is not appropriate in the present forensic setting in Prov 22,22–23, so the author leaves it aside – for now…”
Tim,
What may have happened if Christianity had not had this influence on western thought and the west had not then had a massive influence on modern global culture is a hypothetical and – like all historical hypotheticals – something that is hard to contemplate beyond pure speculation.
Thanks. Unfortunately now I really do not understand how that is compatible with your first reply to my first comment, i.e. “I detail some of the evidence. The book has 500+ pages of it.” (for the claim “that there is something specifically Christian, that would not or maybe even could not have happened under paganism of some sort, about human rights”). It all seems to reduce to the fact that abolition of slavery and the development of human rights happened coincidentally during a time when Christianity had eradicated or absorbed all competing religions and schools of philosophy.
And I agree entirely – that means that the claim of Christianity being responsible for human rights (or any other positive developments during its dominance) can only ever be pure speculation and untestable in principle. Maybe we were talking past each other. If so, sorry for wasting your time.
wrf3,
My point was not about whether the people sitting next to me in religion classes were ‘true Christians’ or not, but that most likely many medieval or early modern Christians would have had as well-informed an understanding of proper Christian moral philosophy as they did. As such they would not have been in favour of abolishing slavery because Christianity logically entails it, but because the Zeitgeist had changed with the structure of the economy.
nightshadetwine,
Trying to clarify what (Tim understands) Holland intends to say was my intention. Your quotations would support the idea that whether Christianity were extinguished or became dominant would most likely not have made a big difference to European thinking.
I can’t see any such incompatibility.
No, it doesn’t.
I conclude from the fact that you are repeating assertions instead of clarifying that you have better things to do than continue. Thanks for your earlier patience. I learn a lot from reading your blog, despite disagreeing with some conclusions.
I can’t “clarify” any further than I already have. You keep making statements and drawing conclusions about what I say that make no sense. So all I can do is tell you that what you say makes no sense as responses to what I’ve said. I don’t know if there is a language issue here, but if you say things which are not sensible responses to my words, than all I can do is tell you this so you can try to understand what I’ve said better.
An intriguing thesis. I suspect it’s partially true, however, these across-the-centuries narratives run into problems with historical causation and broader philosophy of history. A lot of these awesome/disgusting/whatever things like abolitionism, equal rights for all, etc. rose up way after Europe converted to Christianity, so the maximum you can say is that Christianity was a necessary, but not a sufficient factor.
The strongest part of the review is the “separation between the religious and the secular” part, maybe because it seems to have arisen relatively early.
The book argues that it was necessary and sufficient. And makes a strong argument.
Even from your review, I don’t see how it was sufficient. For instance, you point out that Christianity contained both abolitionist and ok-with-slavery Stoic-like stance, with the latter initially being dominant. Surely – judging from it – the former stance provided for the possibility of abolitionism, but other factors – ones that were not present all the time Christians accepted slavery – ensured that it won over the latter?
The point is that while a range of social and economic factors retarded the acceptance of universal, common humanity as a reason to abolish slavery, Christianity provided the philosophical basis to do so. No earlier western tradition had done this and the eventual decline of and final abolition of slavery in the west was based on that Christian ideal and ideals derived from it.
This sounds defensible, as long as Christianity isn’t also credited with the disappearance of these factors.
Sir, the bible endorses slavery and never condemns it universally.
“Christianity provided the philosophical basis to do so”
Was it the biblical Christianity? Was it 1st century Christianity? or was it the heavily influenced by non Christian ideas post Renaissance Christianity?
Is it fair to call my moral system to be Christian just cause I was raised in a Western country? Is Hitler’s moral system Christian as well? Didn’t the Muslim invaded many Western Christian places and influenced them? Did Jesus and the apostles condemmed slavery? If the first anti slavery thinker was a Christian in the first centuries, how is it, that such idea needed more than a thousand years to take effect among the majority of Christians? How then, it is Christianity the reason for the changes of mind?
Sir, the bible endorses slavery and never condemns it universally.
As I said in the article you’re commenting on.
Did you read my review? I make it clear that it was first opposed by Gregory of Nyssa in the fourth century. So, no, not post Renaissance.
I have no idea what your personal moral system is. But it would not only be “fair” but completely accurate to say, whatever it is, it would be heavily and profoundly influenced by Christianity because you were raised in a Western country.
See above.
Yes. No-one has said there were no other influences as well. Though I don’t think Islam itself influenced Europe much in this particular respect.
Did you actually read the article you’re commenting on?
Lots of reasons: conservatism, economic drivers, the fact that slavery had declined in most of that thousand years and only rose again at its end etc.
It was a major reason, not the only one. I explained this in my review. Maybe you could actually read it.
Im glad this book appears to be worthwhile – I bought it for my bro-in-law for Christmas and he is thoroughly enjoying it!
Regards homosexuality, Im not convinced that Christianity per se changed society’s views. Both Old and New Testaments emphasize the sexual act rather than any underlying attraction.
It doesnt seem to matter the impetus for the act/behaviour (whether attraction, power, control etc). Even though many have tried to argue such relations only occurred in power relationships in, for example, Roman or Greek societies, other authors have pretty much negated that understanding.
As for Grayling, sadly he seems typical of the go-to ‘academics’ for New Atheists. They seem wilfully ignorant. When a celebrity movie star rightly criticises the likes of Sam Harris, it speaks volumes.
Alex SL:
Understood. But it seems to me that there is an under appreciated issue in this discussion. One side says, “it was Christian philosophy that changed the West”, another side says, “but, but, but Christian philosophy wasn’t unique.” There is some truth to both views. One view of philosophy is that it is (generally) considered to be mostly academic — lots of arguments that never really solve anything. So what is it that gets a philosophy out of the classroom and into the world? What makes an idea infectious? In Christianity, it is both the idea and the demonstration of “word made flesh that invites us in the building of the coming kingdom, a building that cannot be stopped by death.” Are there any contemporary ideas that are just as powerful? If so, are they derivative or unique? Too, who “owns” this idea? Does one group have more to a claim to it than others?
Which changed what? Did the Zeittgeist change the economy, or did the economy change the Zeitgeist? Isn’t it Holland’s argument that Christianity was the Zeitgeist? I recently read somewhere that the Jewish story of the Exodus is the “greatest story ever told.” Christianity takes the idea of freedom from the tyranny of an enslaving government and expands that to a freedom from the greatest tyrant of all — death. That’s a pretty powerful “geist”.
Part of why this is such a complicated and contentious discussion is surely because participants do not even necessarily ask the same question. To expand on yours, the claim that Christianity is responsible for X (human rights, abolition of slavery, modern science, whatever) can translate into each of the following and perhaps more:
1. Christians happened to be in charge when X happened, but they might just as readily have happened with pagans or atheists in change. (Perhaps because theology is mostly adjusted as needed and used as a rationalisation for what one wanted to do anyway.)
2. Christians did X, so you can at least not argue that Christianity (or religion in general) is incompatible with or forever holds back X.
3. Christianity leads logically to X. There may have been other religions or ideologies that would also have logically led to X, given a bit more time and the right circumstances, but not all of them. For example if [belief I don’t like] had remained dominant X would never have happened.
4. Christianity is uniquely able to produce X. If Christianity had not become dominant in the West, X would never have happened, anywhere, ever.
The problem I have is that many of the statements to the effect of “Christianity is responsible for X” (e.g. human rights grow out of Christian thought) sound very much as if claim #4 is made, at least as part of a motte and bailey argument using #3 as the motte. But I find it arrogant and completely absurd, the kind of statement only somebody entirely ignorant of the philosophy of all other cultures except their own could entertain.
On the other hand, if that is not what is meant, then there is no really interesting statement. #1-#3 all variously admit that there is nothing especially great about Christianity compared to at least some other schools of thought, and “the making of the Western mind” could have happened just the same way under Zoroastrianism, Manichaeism or paganism.
For what it is worth, my own hunch is that beliefs do matter, but only to a degree. Yes, if somebody truly believes they will go to heaven for killing infidels they will be more likely to do that than when they believe that they will merely end up in prison. But ultimately when a big philosophical idea meets immediate material needs or imperial power politics it is the latter who will win out. And, conversely, if decision makers really want to do X but feel they have good reasons to do it, they will most likely be able to pick a philosopher or, to put it into modern terms, think tank hack who provides a rationalisation for X, while ignoring a bunch of other thinkers who argued for Y.
—
I appreciate that there are various functions served by religion – providing a feeling of control e.g. through prayer and sacrifice, when one has no technology or vaccines; an explanatory narrative about the universe, when one has not yet developed social and natural sciences; the hope that there will ultimately be justice, the good will be rewarded and the bad punished, as they clearly and unfairly aren’t in the mortal world; and a comforting belief to deal with our fear of being extinguished and seeing our loved ones extinguished forever.
So I appreciate there are some religions that do not do that last point as well as Christianity. I think, however, that there are plenty of other religions that provide that service just as well as – although perhaps in a different way than – Christianity (e.g. reincarnation). Instead, Christianity’s key advantages appear to be the missionary approach, having been able to capture powerful governments, and using the latter to force everybody to convert. Many religions never attempted to proselytise aggressively, and many were tolerant of minority religions even when an emperor was one of their own. (Note that hundreds of years of Muslim rule left a larger percentage of Christians in Egypt than a much shorter reign of Christianity left Muslims in Spain.)
The Muslims had been invaders in Spain for 700 years, and were still a viable military threat, so when the Spanish had the chance to kick them out they went at it man, horse, and artillery. Any Muslims left in Spain could be part of a fifth column, so they had to convert or go too.
Coptic Christians pre-dated the conquest of Egypt by Islam, and were no threat, so were simply left to die out rather than being overtly crushed and expelled. Of course living as dhimmi in a Muslim country is not great, and many people convert to Islam to get away from it.
Forcing people to convert tended to happen in times of high social stress, as in aforementioned Spain. You wanted to know that everyone you were relying on was in the same boat as you. Notable periods I can think of was the formation of Charlemagne’s Empire, and in Europe around the time of the Crusades.
Interestingly there was little or no attempt at conversion in the Crusader states, and Ibn Jubayr (a Spanish Muslim tourist) even noted that the Muslims living under the Franks faired better than those living under Muslim rule. Not that he was happy about that, having no great love for the Franks, but he noted it.
“We moved from Tibnin – may God destroy it – at daybreak on Monday. Our way lay through continuous farms and ordered settlements, whose inhabitants were all Muslims, living comfortably within the Franks…. They surrender half their crops to the Franks at harvest time, and pay as well a poll-tax of one dinar and five qirat for each person. Other than that they are not interfered with, save for a light tax on the fruit of their trees. The houses and all their effects are left to their full possession. All the coastal cities occupied by the Franks are managed in this fashion, their rural districts, the villages and farms, belong to the Muslims. But their hearts have been seduced, for they observe how unlike them in ease and comfort are their brethren in the Muslim regions under their (Muslim) governors. This is one of the misfortunes afflicting the Muslims. The Muslim community bewails the injustice of the landlord of its own faith, and applauds the conduct of its opponent and enemy, the Frankish landlord, and is accustomed to justice from him.”
When history must be turned into propaganda the key is to be as onesided as possible.
Example: when the muslims invaded Spain in 710 or 711 CE they were successfull because so many christians and jews fought at their side …. Never mind that in Hispania the christian Visigoths had been invaders for 300 years. And there is El Cid, who wasn’t above fighting for the Taifa of Zaragoza in the 11the Century.
But such facts don’t suit you, so you omit them. ‘Cuz reasons.
https://militaryhistoryonline.com/Medieval/MuslimHorde
“In just two years, the combined and relatively organized Muslim armies, aided by disaffected Christian nobles and alienated Christian serfs alike, as well as persecuted Jews and slaves, conquered the Iberian Peninsula.”
My bet is that when christian invaders do something like that you call them liberators.
We learned in school that “Western Civilization began in Ancient Greece”. And that Christianity derailed the Greco-Roman miracle that would have supposedly landed us on Mars over 1,000 years ago. How they would have done rocket science with Roman numerals is beyond me.
The cultural world of the Ancient Greeks and Romans is actually fairly alien to us, in important respects. Obviously, there was a transformation that took place. And not just a straight line projection from whatever the Ancients had thought and done. It wasn’t just a “rediscovery”. Something new was going on.
“[C]hristianity derailed the Greco-Roman miracle that would have supposedly landed us on Mars over 1,000 years ago. How they would have done rocket science with Roman numerals is beyond me.”
Haha – that was great, thanks
Hello Tim, Im a big fan of your blog.
I wanted to suggest that if you enjoyed Dominion, you will also enjoy Steven D. Smith’s book Pagans and Christians in the City, Culture wars from the Tiber to the Potomac. It argues the the modern ‘culture war’ that exists in the US is the continuation of the tensions tha arose between Christianity and Paganism in the Roman Empire. It is a little bit more of a scholarly book than Holland’s is (it’s written by a University Professor, has footnotes instead of endnotes, will possibly be assigned as reading for undergrad) and hence isn’t quite as readable, however would love to get your opinion on it one day.
Thanks
Hmmmm. I’m deeply suspicious of anyone who tries to extrapolate from ancient history to modern politics. And some of the reviews of that book talk about “the rabid New Left” and “people who believe in Climate Change” (as though scientific fact is something you just “believe” in). So I went looking for who this “Steven D. Smith” was and found a whole lot of right wing culture warrior stuff like this. So, no thanks.
If there’s any chance of persuading you let me try. The book isnt just a pastiche of right wing talking points, and in extrapolating from ancient history to modern politics he’s only doing the same thing Holland is doing in Dominion. For instance, when Holland thinks the radical egalitarianism of Marx in some ways reflects the early church as depicted in Acts.
The thesis is very clearly written and laid out, and a lot of the books he cites are reviewed pretty highly on your own goodreads page (Edward J. Watts, the Final Pagan Generation is one). part of the reason I was hoping you might do a review is because all of the reviews are supportive and from a conservative American perspective and I thought it would be good to get a review of the book from a more secular perspective and from someone who is more neutral on the American political situation, and knows what they are talking about with regards to history.
And that really isn’t selling it to me. I have limited reading time and lot of books to get through already. Sorry, but this one is setting off too many alarms bells to really interest me.
I think the relations between Christianity and some modern philosophies / political ideologies is something you should explore. Of course, this topic might be too politically charged for you to write on this blog or to even consider. Nevertheless, there is a theory among some right wingers that the philosophy of “everyone should be equal” is what motivates both the growth of Christianity and Marxism
No. The topic and focus of this blog is New Atheist bad history. That’s all.
Is “New Atheism” (let alone New Atheist Bad History) much of a thing anymore? Hitchens is dead. Harris is hawking his meditation app. Dawkins’s new book is about 20,000 on the bestseller list. Everyone else seems to realize that atheists agree on precisely nothing beyond a lack of belief in gods (as this website shows, even atheists believing that atheism is preferable to religion is controversial among atheists. I can’t think of another social movement that insists upon cannibalizing itself in the name of intellectual honesty. ), and have gone on to embrace other movements, raise families, and/or get jobs. Movement Atheism is dead out of fashion.
As I say in my FAQ, I’m using “New Atheist” as a shorthand for “anti-theistic atheist activist”. There are still plenty of them. It’s not like I’m running out of material for this blog.
Just seems a bit like bayonetting the wounded, is all. “There are” flat-earthers as well, but it’d be a bit silly for an accomplished scientist to go around finding and refuting random cranks on the internet. I’ve followed you since we were debating the Iraq War on the White Council about 20 years ago (dartholorin was my handle then), and you are probably more responsible for both my agnosticism and my current history kick than any other person. I’m just hoping you broaden your approach a bit is all, and I say that as a fan.
It’s my hobby – I’ll choose how I do it. As I said, while the big names may seem less active, there is still plenty of this crap around. Harris still pops up on very active media channels spouting pseudo history. I’m in the process of writing a piece about where Grayling, who has a history of philosophy on the shelves right now, has recently done the same. And pretty much every day I see minor figures like Carrier being touted as an “expert” as support for all kinds of garbage history. And then we have people like Catherine Nixey writing best-selling “history” full of crap. Or Neil deGrasse Tyson spouting nonsense to his 13.6 million Twitter followers. As I said, it’s not like I’m running low on material.
These are not “random cranks” and I see the crap they peddle being presented as “common knowledge” all the time. There may be other sources of bad history, but most of them already have active debunkers. I know of no other atheist who is tackling these people. So I think I’ll keep doing it, thanks all the same.
“the tensions tha arose between Christianity and Paganism in the Roman Empire”
That’s a sign the book is outdated, if not backward. The latest historical research strongly suggests that these tensions were far less than previously thought. I’ll give two examples: Synesios of Cyrene was a pagan who became bishop in 410 CE. He did so because he needed to defend the Pentepolis against invading tribes. He converted, but his wife remained pagen.
The other example is the famous Academy of Athena. Emperor Justinianus didn’t close it, he simply cut off state subsidy. The Academy failed to find other financial means. Hence the philosophers (who btw had not produced anything worthwhile for decades) quit.
“…he simply cut off state subsidy” Bad enough, I should say!
Why? It’s not like he cut off funding for all schools of ancient philosophy and literature. Plenty of others continued to get state funding and to maintain the old traditions of Greco-Roman education. Justinian simply ruled that overtly pagan schools were no longer going to get free cash handouts from the state. They could keep teaching (and some did), just not on the taxpayers’ dime. This meant that some dilettantes like Damascius and his Neo-Platonic friends in Athens couldn’t keep up their school (a sign of its dwindling relevance) and so they had to shut up shop. But given that they maintained a highly mystical philosophy based on worship of the old gods and thaumaturgical magic, it’s hard to see that this was much of a blow to knowledge and learning. Actual reason-based philosophy continued in the great schools of Constantinople, Antioch, and Alexandria, with full imperial funding. So, “bad” because … ?
Oh, I agree with all of the above, but he did still cut their funding, while continuing support to the competition.
So,”bad” for the Academy, to be specific.
The “opposition” in question was specifically the very small fraction of mystical neo-Platonism of the school Iamblichus. And they kept teaching anyway, just without Imperial subsidy. So the impact was tiny and inconsequential. Other philosophy and science continued to be taught widely.
Dutch historian Jona Lendering – cf www. livius. org is far less positive on Holland’s book (and on this author in general).
mainzerbeobachter.com/ 2020/01/30/ deportatie-en-kruisiging-1/
This is the first part of a series and hence way too long for me to translate. I’ll give one example:
“… tonen dat hij door gebrek aan vakkennis fouten maakt. Vandaag zijn feiten. Dat zijn namelijk geen feiten maar decorstukken in wat Holland presenteert als een drama.”
“… show that he due to lack of know-how makes mistakes. Today his facts. See, they are not facts but stage sets in what Holland presents as a drama.”
Is this going to be a very long series of articles? Because if those rather minor nitpicks are the best he’s got, then I can’t say I’m deeply impressed. Lendering also seems to have some obsessions and it looks like popular history writers like Holland is one of them. I know other academic historians who sneer at writers like Holland and wonder how much of that is motivated by jealousy that he gets book sales and they don’t.
Mr Tim O’Neillr, i am a Spanish apologist. By the way, Draper and Andrew Dickson White are a mine of information about anti-clerical stupidities; I am writing chapters on certain black legends, as I enjoy refuting the grotesque lies of Draper and White regarding obstetric anesthesia, smallpox vaccine, lightning rod and cadaver dissection …
Obviusly, i have studied the supposed link between slavery and Cristianity. In my opinion you have good refutation in this links (in Spanish)
: http://www.africafundacion.org/africaI+D2009/documentos/Voces.pdf
http://tadurraca.blogspot.com.es/2016/02/la-semana-pasada-al-hablar-de-la.html
Los Capuchinos y la esclavitud negra en los siglos XVII y XVIII …
http://www.academia.edu/…/Los_Capuchinos_y_la_esclavitud_negra_en_los_siglos_XVII_.
Pius VII said this in a letter addressed to the King of France on September 20, 1814:
Pius VII: “We forbid any ecclesiastical or secular to support as legitimate, under any pretext, this trade of blacks, or to teach in public or in private in any way something contrary to this apostolic letter.”
Shortly afterwards, in 1823, he again insisted on a letter addressed to the King of Portugal “that the ignominious black trade for the good of religion and the human race be finally removed”
In the previous century, in 1741, Pope Benedict XIV had addressed to the King of Portugal the immense Apostolic Constitution, condemning the slavery of the Indians. And later, in 1758, a copy of it was sent to the Capuchins of Congo, understanding that this same doctrine would apply also to the blacks. To clarify this topic and understand the efforts of capuchins and others against slavery I strongly recommend reading this link:http://www.africafundacion.org/africaI+D2009/documentos/Voces.pdf
Fray Gatti wrote this condemnation of slavery at the request of the Congregation of the Index and with the approval of Pope Po IX. Therefore it is not a personal opinion but an official document of the Magisterium. http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=8314521
900 years before these abolitionist efforts we have this epistle: “Letter of Pope John VIII, dated September 873 and addressed to the Princes of Sardinia:
-There is one thing we want to admonish in a fatherly tone; If you do not thoroughly amend, commit a great sin, and instead of the gain you expect, you will see your problems multiplied. In fact – by Institution of Greeks, many men taken captive by the pagans in their lands were sold and bought for their citizens who keep them in slavery. Now it seems to be pious and holy, as befits Christians, that once purchased, these slaves are released by the love of Christ – to those who do, the reward will not be given by men but by the Lord Jesus Christ himself. Therefore, exhort and send you paternal love of some pagan captives and let them go for the good of their souls (Denzinger-Sch’anmetzer, Enchiridion of Symbols and Definitions No. 668) ” Also, the pope Zacharias (from 741 to 752) interjected himself in the slave trade of the Venetian merchants, when he bought the slaves who were brought to Rome for resale to the Saracens in Africa, ban the sell of slaves in the city of Roma.
“dated September 873”
Very nice and a bit of googling brought me the Order of the Blessed Virgen Mary of Mercy, but …..
1. How comes it took 800+ years?
2. Was this the rule or was this exceptional?
2b. If this was the rule, how comes catholic authorities in 16th Century Spain and Portugal didn’t listen? Catholic Brasil was one of the latest countries to abolish slavery?
Could it be because catholics, including their authorities, are mere humans too and hence on average neither especially evil nor ethically any better than non-catholics, but just products of their time, place and culture? If yes I think your apologetics rather uninteresting. I’ve never taken propagandists like Draper and Dickson White seriously anyway.
It did not take 800 years. Most countries in the West had abolished slavery by the High Middle Ages. It was reintroduced, in the West, later.
Portugal & Spain ignored the Catholic Church on a number of points ( racial persecution of Jews, for example ). Or, more exactly, they ignored the rest of the Catholic Church.
Catholicism is not a guarantee of anti-slavery – witness William the Conquror abolishing thralldom in equally Catholic Anglo-Saxondom – but there does seem to be a tendency there.
People being of their time is rather self-evident, but times change, sometimes due to people.
Thanks for adding correcting points that are irrelevant for mine. It was not “catholicism is guarantee of either slavery or anti-slavery.
Very well. Let`s streamline things.
1: It did not take 800 years.
2: It was, & is, the rule.
3: Spain & Portugal were, for a time, ( very large ) exceptions to that rule.
I am sorry if I gave you the impression that your position was either / or: but the objections you gave, above, do seem to indicate that you considered Catholicism to be more neutral, if not somewhat positive towards, the institution of slavery than what contemporary history can support.
Remember that the Catholic Church was not as powerful as moderns make it out to be, at least not throughout its history.
As Tim notes, there was division between secular and sacred, and while the sacred had the ability, at times, to call the secular to heel, just as often the secular would dictate what the sacred was allowed to say and do.
The Pope could send whatever missives to the Americas that he wished, but slave-owning Spaniards simply ignored him. Slavery was just too profitable to be concerned with what the Pope thought.
That said the Catholic Church had some input on the Code Noir which laid out rules for the treatment of slaves in French territories. It was probably more benevolent, at least in theory, than treatment in the non-French territories.
Jesuits did try to protect native Americans from enslavement, and were subsequently ordered out of the country.
Damn good read — thank you.
Thank you, Tim.
Another very interesting article.
I look forward to each one.
On the whole a good piece, but you’re wrong on how Basil viewed Slavery. Basil did have the view that some people were ordained to be poorer than others (see Homily “I will tear down my barns”) however, he frequently points to slavery as an awful consequence of human greed.
I recommend reading the Popular Patrisitics work by Basil of Casearea “Homilies on Social Justice” where his theology of human property, wealth etc. are rather apparent. It’s worth noting that Athanagoras, Hippolytus and Justin Martyr, while not outright condemning slavery, did take a somewhat dim view of it. That’s not to say they were as explicitly abolitionist as Basil’s brother, but I think it’s somewhat unfair to say Basil saw it as necessary because some people were naturally servile (as his theology of charity would contradict that entirely). The notions of slavery abolitionism are early for Christianity, but seem to have faded away before coming back later under Wilberforce et al. Would appreciate more detailed thoughts on this though, as I daresay there must be some atheist somewhere who argues Christianity was responsible for keeping Slavery more prominent.
I can’t see how anything you’ve said contradicts what I say above.
I know what I’m about to mention is a tangent from the actual article about this book Dominion by Tom Holland and it’s topic of the subtle Christian influences on western society.
But I had to chuckle over that Richard Carrier’s upcoming book being called “Jesus from outer space”. Clearly Carrier’s desperately going for shock value to stay relevant (and sell books to the people who only claim to have read his hefty pseudo-academic test “on the historicity of Jesus” but obviously haven’t at all).
Hopefully, this resort to shock of Carrier’s and the sure to be silly content within the book only backfires and further reduces his already eroded credibility and standing…
What exactly is subtle about christian influences on western society given the fact that that society has been christian through and through for many centuries?
Has it? According to Jesus, the two greatest laws are “love God…” and “love neighbor”. This implies an affirmative duty to act.
Yet American law, except in a few cases, says that there is no affirmative duty to act. That incongruity, among many, is what makes this such an interesting problem.
I don’t think I would debate the notion that Western society was overwhelmingly Christian from Constantine onwards. Between Julian and Thomas Hobbes virtually every culturally significant non-Jewish person in the west identified as Christian. That’s well over a thousand years of absolute rule.
If that’s your standard there have been precious few christians around last 2000 years. That many christians have violated and still violate Jesus’ “laws” is old news as well and about as interesting as dog bites man. It’s OK with me, it only stresses that Jesus and his little project were immense failures.
The “incongruity” you mention is also trivial. It’s because of state-religion separation. All in all the conclusion remains the same, no matter which angle you chose (except for a rabid christian one): christianity has nothing useful to contribute to the topic of “affirmative duty to act”.
I cannot but allow that due to my upbringing and cultural environment my mind has been immensely influenced (and I still fail to recognize any subtility) by christianity as well, whether it lives up to your standards or not. For a staunch unbeliever like me that means that identifying and questioning those influences is first priority. Holland’s question “how comes” is and remains trivial.
Hi Tim O’Neill,
I have two questions (or a series of questions about two different topics) about Tom Holland’s thesis (just to be clear these questions could have been answered in the book but I don’t have it at the moment, they also could be just me being confused about what you’re saying):
1. From what I gather in your review Holland says that early Christian ethics were similar to Stoic ethics (Jew or Gentile vs Greek or barbarian and all that stuff) and he says that Christianity revolutionized how people in the Classical (or I guess now post-Classical) world treated others of lower social status than them. But I was reading the history section of the Wikipedia article about the Stoics and it said: “Stoicism became the foremost popular philosophy among the educated elite in the Hellenistic world and the Roman Empire” If that’s the case (it’s Wikipedia so it could be wrong), than would Christianity have been as revolutionary (in terms of ethics) as Holland says it is? If the elites were already expected to treat slaves (or other people of lower social status) humanly due to Stoicism then the arrival of Christianity wouldn’t seem to be such a huge change in ethics (at least among the elites). Am I missing something here?
2. I’m trying to wrap my head around what Tom Holland and other historians (like Bart Ehrman) say societal ethics were like in the pre-Christian Classical world. So if I understand them correctly, they’re saying it was seen as morally fine for people of a higher social status to dominate (meaning do what ever the hell they want with including rape) people of a lower social status? If so, why were many of the Greeks (especially the Athenians) and Roman republicans constantly (or at least often, from what I remember) complaining about tyrants, denouncing kings (at least in their own city), promoting democracy and advocating for checks on power and stuff? And didn’t the Athenians celebrate Solon freeing the lower classes from debt bondage? Were the Athenians the exception in this case or were they just racist (democracy for Greeks but enslave barbarians)? Was it because they (Athenians or Roman Republicans) viewed themselves as being on the same “level” as the “tyrants” with barbarians and slaves on a lower level? Also during the Roman empire the emperor was seen as a god which would mean (I assume) he had the highest social status in the empire higher then even the senatorial class. So if Tom Holland is right then why do pagan Roman historians like Tacitus and Suetonius condemn someone like Nero for dominating others? Maybe I’m over thinking this and it’s a simple case of people complaining when they (or people they like) get dominated but are perfectly fine dominating others?
Sorry for the long questions I just wasn’t sure how to express my confusion in a simpler way lol. Please correct me if I got something wrong or misunderstood something that you or Tom Holland meant.
You are. As I noted, the Stoic attitude to slavery and to many other ethical issues was different to the Christian one. Stoics taught that you should treat inferiors well because it makes you a better person. Christianity said you should do so because they weren’t actually your inferior and were actually, like you, made in the image of God and, like you, saved by the sacrifice of Jesus. Stoics said that slavery was bad but was a necessary evil that slaves just had to endure. Gregory of Nyssa was the first person to say it was bad because it was wrong and so should be rejected as an institution. That’s a big difference.
Yes.
Also yes.
They don’t. They condemn him for being immoderate, inconsistent, undignified, unlawful and plain old insane. Dominating others lower on the hierarchy was expected, but it was meant to be done “properly”, with beneficence, wisdom and dignity. Nero didn’t do it that way.
Sorry for not responding right away, I had a rather busy week but I have more time now. I still have a couple things I would like to clarify about your answer if you don’t mind.
1. Did the Stoics believe in universal human equality or not? In your answer you seem to imply that they didn’t (again I could easily be misunderstanding you). But in the review you clearly state that they did. I think I might be misunderstanding something here.
2. Assuming the Stoics did believe in human equality. Was the main difference than that the Stoics never made the leap into thinking that you should help others because they’re your equal rather then to just make your self a better person? If this is the case then why did Christians make that leap but Stoics never did (since they both believed in human equality)? Was it because the Christians had some extra theological views that the Stoics did not (such as Gregory of Nyssa’s idea that when you (a Christian) sees another person suffering that person needs your help because they are made in the image of God just like you)?
3. Was there an immediate change in ethical behavior among the elite when Christianity became the norm? Because you say in your review that early Christians had a Stoic attitude towards slavery and that it would take centuries of Christian theological development for most Christians to arrive at the conclusion that slavery evil as an institution. So would that mean that Christianity was revolutionary for ethics in that it laid the seeds for major changes down the line or did it make huge changes at the moment (the 4th century)? I guess my question could boil down to: Was there a major difference in ethics between a Christian and a Stoic in the Roman empire (like maybe what was the difference in ethics between Constantine the Great and Marcus Aurelius?)
4. Since the Romans elite were republicans, was that why Octavian needed to present himself as divine in order to become absolute ruler? As that was the only way for him to enter a “level” above the senators since they saw themselves at the top level among humans? (If that’s true than the emperor’s divine status makes a lot more sense now lol).
5. Do you have any book recommendations that explain the pre-Christian Classical ethics and hierarchy system or is reading Dominion a good introduction to that topic?
Sorry for the long questions and thanks for spending the time to answer them!
From my article:
“The Stoics, with their greater acknowledgement of the implications of natural law, had a more humane and egalitarian attitude toward slavery. But while they disagreed that nature made some people slaves, they accepted it as inevitable that fortune would result in some people being subjugated by others and so saw slavery as distasteful but inevitable: a necessary evil. Even the great Stoic writer, Epictetus – himself a former slave – never criticised the institution of slavery as unjust. He too saw it as an outworking of fate and a result of the great chain of cause and effect stretching back and forth in time. Slavery, for Epictetus and the Stoics, was in the category of things “not up to us”.”
As I say in my article and have said several times, they saw slavery as a necessary evil and saw inequality as a regrettable inevitability. They said you should help others because doing so was good for you. The idea that there could ever be a society without inequality does not seem to have occurred to them.
Yes. As I say in my article. And as Holland explains in his book. The idea of a god who humbles himself to die for others was the new insight that seems to have sparked a new way of thinking.
“Was there an immediate change in ethical behavior among the elite when Christianity became the norm?”
No, as I say in my article. Did you actually read my article? You keep asking questions I’ve already answered.
Because the republican model had broken down and he needed to establish a new political order and give it a religious foundation.
There is no single book that I can recommend on that vast subject. Rather than asking me more questions, how about you just read Holland’s book?
I may have forgotten about parts of your article that I read last week when I sent sent the comment a little impulsively. I should have reread it (sorry about that!). Anyways, I will definitely read the book when I have time, thanks for the replies and sorry for testing your patience.
Octavian never presented himself as divine. The government, aka the senate and people of Rome, conferred the honorific Augustus on hi as an emblem of the peace and prosperity his rule had brought after decades of civil war.
After his death, the same government conferred divine honours : that would be sacrifices and temples, to his memory. Did anyone actually pray to Augustus? I don’t know, no one alive knows. If they did, well, that was their choice or inclination. That was never decreed, just that you had to pay supreme respect to his memory as a great force for civic good. The mechanism for that respect was divine honours.
Octavian was happy to allow worship of himself as divine in the eastern part of the Empire in his lifetime – See Cassius Dio, 51.20. The Empire-wide cult of him as Divus Augustus spread from there.
His cult had temples and worship of him, which involved prayers. So, yes.
On the subject of Tom Holland, have you also watched his documentaries too? Especially his most famous one, “Islam: The Untold Story”? Like his book “In the Shadow of the Sword” he takes the Bart Ehrman approach to Islam and got quite the negative reaction for it, showing he nailed it.
From this review, one could get the impression that Holland traces the West’s separation of religion and state back to Augustine and to conflict between kings and popes. Does Holland anywhere in his book trace the separation back to Jesus’ words, “Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, to God the things that are God’s,” and “My kingdom is not of this world,” and to Jesus telling Pilate that the disciples will not fight Pilate because Jesus’ kingdom is not of this world? My impression is that from the very beginning of Christianity there was at least a confused or incipient or latent sense that there were to be two realms, the sacred and the secular. In the ensuing course of history, sometimes popes dominated kings, sometimes kings dominated popes, but there was always at least a latent recognition that there were to be two realms, even if people were not terribly clear on where the boundary was meant to be. But this separation of sacred and secular powers, however imperfect and however frequently trespassed upon during the course of Western Christian history, made for sufficient social decentralization to permit social evolution, and led eventually, by all sorts of roundabout means, to the First Amendment of the US Constitution. Does Holland trace the separation of religion and state back to Christ’s words, or only back to goings on in early Christian centuries and medieval period?
I’d have to re-read the relevant sections to see if he mentions the words attributed to Jesus as beginning points for this idea. Like good historians, he tends to trace how ideas develop and evolve from many strands of thought rather than pinpointing any particular point of origin. Perhaps you could … read the book.
Tim, have you read this article?
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1561233?seq=1
It points out, as Holland does, that the concept of lesbianism (and by extension, all homosexuality) did not exist in antiquity as something comparable to what we know it as today, even for St Paul. If he was right, it was largely a misreading of his writings that led to lesbianism being conceptualised as an identity comparable to that of gay men.
I’m pretty sure, Ovid went so far as to say they did not exist.
Thanks. It’s good to see an atheist response that is not as vitriolic and acerbic as at least two horsemen of the apocalypse (one sadly no longer with us). Considered, respectful. Be warned, however. CS Lewis tells us that the moment the atheist starts considering the evidence and engaging with Christian thinkers (in a non-Dawkins kind of way), conversion often follows, even if, in his own words, reluctantly.
Christians have been assuring me that I’m on the brink of conversion for about 30 years now, so I wouldn’t hold your breath.
“No-one taught we should be kind to strangers by citing Inanna’s death or Attis’ castration.” Not sure how that supports Tom’s argument, or debunks Carrier’s. Simply because nobody did it, and Christians did it, doesn’t imply causation. Given that the idea is fundamental to all human cultures, and all Christianity was a combination of Judaism with ideas of salvation (clearly borrowed from cults of that time).
Carrier tries to argue that because other deities were depicted suffering, the Jesus story is not unique or particularly significant. This ignores the fact that the suffering of Jesus was held up as a reason to be aware of and try to allieviate the suffering of others. That of Attis et. al was not. And that’s the point Holland is making, not that the suffering per se was unique. Carrier has missed the point completely.
That is total nonsense. The suffering of Jesus is repeatedly held up as a reason for compassion for others throughout Christian theology. The causation here is absolutely clear.
James McGrath shared this review on social media today, and I thought it would be of interest:
https://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2020/08/lazy-sentimental-christianity-part-1.html
I will be looking for more of your work.
One thing that always strikes me about discussing the social impact of Christianity is how little interest there seems to be in understanding Christianity’s impact outside of the West… for example, Ethiopia and Armenia have been Christian for longer than Rome has been Christian, correct? Is there much interest in how Christianization impacted those societies?
Just a curiosity given that we tend to speak of Christianity’s initial social impact almost exclusively in a Roman context.
Holland writes in the introduction that he does not trace the history of Eastern Christianity beyond Antiquity – his book is about Christianity’s impact on the history of the West.
That makes sense to the extent that the West (the lands dominated by the Latin church, later also Protestantism and the developments that followed) is what has decisively shaped the modern world. ’Dominion’ is, after all, about the West, rather than a story of Christianity per se.
It is striking, though, how Eastern Christianity is often relegated to the fringes of Christian history, overshadowed by developments in the Catholic world, as if Greek Orthodoxy or the Armenian, Georgian or Ethiopian churches are simply exotic footnotes to the ”real” history of Christianity. (As far as I know, Greeks tend to repay the favour: they see Protestantism as simply the freaky footnote to the Catholic heresy 🙂
As recent research into the origins of Islam has revealed, Eastern branches of Christianity have also played a decisive role in the course of history.
Thank you for the review, I’ll definitely buy the book.
However, I have two questions. It seems that developments of societies of *western* Christianity was quite different than of the *eastern* ones. Russia was different than France or England.
Also, Islam (in my view) looks quite similar to Christianity – all people are equal before God, races don’t matter etc – why so different outcome in societies under Islam?
Of course. But the fundamental theological underpinnings and their philosophical foundations were the same – Christian ones.
I imagine Holland would argue that Islam differs in the one thing that is essential to the Christian world view – a God who becomes a man and suffers for others.
Tom has often said in interviews that he is appalled by the callousness of the ancient Greeks and Romans and their indifference to human suffering. I think somewhere in the book he writes that they regarded pity and compassion as a weakness and implies that only Christianity changed that (I don’t know the exact page so I hope I’m not distorting him here).
I know that the Greeks and Romans engaged in mass enslavement and mass killings but were they completely (!) unable to show any (!) sign of pity and compassion even in their everyday life? How would they have reacted if they had personally encountered a stranger that was clearly in great need? How would they have reacted to this: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/video/heart-breaking-footage-of-young-ukrainian-refugee-crying-in-poland/vi-AAUEtpc ?
Is my reaction to that sight only or mainly the result of my upbringing in a Christian country instead of a polytheistic-pagan one?
That’s not what he says. Of course they could show compassion and pity in some circumstances – they were humans. The point is that they generally didn’t do so in circumstances where it would seem “normal” and “natural” for us. So while the idea of giving to a charity to help people on the other side of the world who were suffering seems normal to us, it would seem very weird to a Roman, who would wonder why we would have any need to do this for people who are not related to us or don’t come from the same city or social group. And while most of us find the idea of cruelly torturing someone, even if they are a criminal or a terrorist, fundamentally wrong, they would find that fundamentally baffling.
So they would not for one moment think about helping the boy in that video? Because they weren’t related to him and didn’t come from the same city or social group?
It’s too absolute to declare that no Roman would help a particular person in a particular circumstance. There were almost certainly highly compassionate people then just as there are highly selfish people now. But their society was substantially different to ours in many respects, and compassion for strangers just because they are people like us was basically an alien concept to them. Whereas we find it so normal that we assume it’s “natural” and innate. It isn’t. It’s a fundamentally Christian concept, at least in origin.
hello tim! Thanks to your review this book is on my reading list. Thank you! By the way, could you clarify about the influence of Christianity on the Western perception of sex? I see some people saying that Augustine condemned sex just for pleasure but that’s not what I see in “the goods of marriage”. Augustine seemed to regard sex for pleasure as a venial sin (about venial sins he speaks: “I do not tell you that you will live here without sin; but they are venial, without which this life is not. For the sake of all sins was Baptism provided; for the sake of light sins, without which we cannot be, was prayer provided. What has the Prayer? Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. Once for all we have washing in Baptism, every day we have washing in prayer). I read in Giles that Jerome and medieval theologians in general condemn sex for pleasure alone but I don’t remember him putting even a citation that can prove the his point. in the middle ages, did the church prefer Jerome over Augustine on this topic? could you help me on this topic? I hope this question doesn’t escape the focus of the blog, but because “Christianity and the West” was raised in this post I thought I could bring up this doubt.
Sorry, not a topic I’ve looked into.
oh okay! Thank you for your quick answer 🙂
I am currently reading Dominion and enjoying it, but it seems that Tom Holland is rather controversial in other corners of historical discourse. In this reddit thread, it is said of Holland that “He could be a better history writer if only he read more widely, wasn’t so confident in his conclusions, and engaged more with his sources.”
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/ig9vtw/what_makes_tom_holland_unreliable_as_a_historian/
Dominion never comes up in the discussion, so the critiques of Holland’s other work aren’t necessarily applicable. Still, as you assess Holland positively on all three of the points quoted above, I would be interested in your thoughts on the criticisms brought up in the thread.
I have not found those criticisms to be valid for the three works of his I’ve read. I can’t comment on the others. But when writing narrative history a writer inevitably has to choose between possible interpretations. There are always going to be people who think the wrong choice was made and feel the scholars who support the alternatives are “correct” and so assume the writer simply didn’t know these other options. That’s usually not the case and doesn’t seem to be so with Holland.
I found Dominion so irritating that I gave up half way through.
There was so very much Tom Holland expounding his over-arching narrative and so very little showing his “workings- out” in support of that narrative. The book just didn’t “smell” right to me, as history (although let me admit, I’m no historian). I had assumed when I started reading that Holland had some academic qualifications in the field, but the book read so much more like a novel than a historical work that I researched the author, and of course, he has no formal qualifications. Which doesn’t mean he’s wrong, but it does mean that what he says should not be treated as authoritative. His degree being in English makes perfect sense. He is primarily an author rather than a historian.
Interestingly, before I read this review, and as I say, being no historian myself, I also noticed his claims about sexual mores. One of the relatively few primary sources quoted by Holland is Musonius Rufus: “It is accepted that every master is entitled to use his slave as he desires”. But the context in which this statement is made (Lecture XII) is specifically in connection with Musonius rejecting it! Yet Holland presents it as if this is a source who is endorsing the notion that all is permitted with a slave. It could be said that since Musonius was saying that this was a widely held belief the quote does support Holand’s thesis. But still, not reflect that the source he is relying on is actually emphatically rejecting the idea that he says was unchallenged at the time, does seem to me to be a little economical with the truth.
The same source also shows that condemnation of homosexual behaviour was not unknown on Roman society, ditto the idea that marriage should be based on mutual love and respect.
To me, the book (as far as I read it) read as something written by someone who had come up with a theory then expanded it into a narrative which had to be made to fit it.
My copy has 30 + pages of endnotes with citations of sources and a 19 page bibliography.
Plenty of actual historians have no problem with its “smell”.
You must read some very odd novels. It reads like what it is – a popular work of history on a wide theme.
Holland has discussed why he ended up doing English rather than history. His reasons are very much like my own, as I made the same choice despite a great interest in history. The fact is that he is the author of a number of widely acclaimed history books and the presenter of one of the most popular and awarded history podcasts on the planet. And he is meticulous in his research. Obsessively so. BUt yes, he’s also something academic historians are not – an eloquent writer.
Sorry, but this doesn’t undermine Holland’s (unremarkable) point about how widely accepted this was. Rufus is very much an exception on this, as Stoics often were. The fact remains that Rufus says that this was commonly and unquestioningly accepted which is precisely what Holland is saying.
Ummm, yes. Because it does.
That’s nonsense. Holland uses the source to say what the source is saying – that this was a common and largely unquestioned idea.
No. It seems you just don’t like the conclusions he reaches, which are well-founded, carefully argued, fully supported and not at all controversial. Bart Ehrman is in the process of writing a book that comes to much the same conclusions.
Wow! Obnoxious much? Did somebody get out of the wrong side of bed this morning?
//…you don’t like the conclusions he reaches…/
Or maybe you just don’t like me (or anyone apart from you) criticising the book? Don’t be so defensive!
I had no reason to think that Holland wasn’t qualified in this area. But I started to suspect he wasn’t, purely because of the way the book was written. And on researching, it turned out that I was right. Coincidence?
I’m sure lots of people enjoy reading the book. Good for them. I’m not one.
If the idea was so common, why didn’t Holland find a source who actually endorsed it rather than one whose purpose was to oppose it?
And it is disingenuous to quote from a source without making it clear that that the quote does not represent the actual views of the person being quoted!
If his conclusions are so well-established and uncontroversial, why did he even bother writing the book?
You made a series of statements and arguments that were weak and/or factually wrong. If you don’t like having your arguments critically analysed, maybe you shouldn’t post them on a public forum. Critical analysis is what we do here.
Criticism is fine. Bad criticism isn’t.
Again, Holland is a careful researcher whose work has been praised by professional historians. What he did as an undergraduate doesn’t magically make that disappear.
The point is that lots of those people who “enjoy” it and agree with its arguments and conclusions are historians. You aren’t. You also gave reasons for disagreeing with the book which were weak and factually wrong.
Because things that are widely accepted largely without question tend not to be clearly articulated except by the few who find a reason not to accept it. The quote states and encapsulates the accepted norm perfectly. That’s why he uses it.
Nonsense. It would only be “disingenuous” if it was making Musonius Rufus seem to say this was a commonly accepted idea when he wasn’t saying that. But that’s exactly what he is saying. The quote accurately illustrated the point Holland is making.
Because he found it interesting that most historians would not disagree with the concept that Christianity, unsurprisingly, profoundly changed the world it influenced for over 1500 years, yet no-one had written a book exploring how and what this means.
I don’t at all mind having my ideas critically examined. In fact that was precisely why I commented on your site, because I wanted some pushback.
But “criticism” doesn’t necessitate being downright rude.
Musonius says that “some people” take the view that it is not blameworthy for a man to have sexual relations with his female slave. Holland quotes him without this qualification, which is as I say, disingenuous. If the view that it was acceptable was so very widespread why did Holland not find a source who actually believed this instead of a source who was saying that the view was only held by some and was wrong?
If his arguments are well-supported, why did Philip Jenkins say that “we really need better evidence” to support Holland’s contention that Christianity launched an across-the-board Christian revolution?
If his arguments are “uncontentious” then why did Gerard De Groot say that he didn’t “remotely accept Holland’s thesis”?
Those are the only reviews I’ve been able to find from actual historians and they are sceptical of Holland’s thesis. But perhaps there are others out there which are more supportive of his arguments. People (including historians) can enjoy Holland’s book as a “good read” without necessarily considering it to be “good history”.
I have been careful to make clear that I am not using an ad hominem argument against Holland’s thesis based on his lack of formal qualifications. I am pointing out that he should not be treated as if he were an expert.
If I ever decided to actually be rude to you, I can assure you that you’ll know about it. I have not been rude.
Read in context, Musonius is simply contrasting those who think this with himself, who does not. This is like saying “some may like milk in their tea but I think this ruins it” This doesn’t tell us whether those who like milk in their tea are in a majority or a minority or even if I am the only person who thinks black tea is better. But the statement that “every master is held to have it in his power to use his slave as he wishes” is clearly categorical, so the passage does say that these “some” (as ooposed to Musonius) have the accepted understanding of the power relationship firmly on their side, even if Musonius disagrees with its application in this circumstance. And that’s what Holland is using the quote to illustrate.
Because he’s (obviously) not quoting Musonius to say that Musonius believed this but as a clear statement that “every master is held to have it in his power to use his slave as he wishes” as a commonly accepted idea. And it clearly was. Another Stoic, Seneca, in the Troades states that no slave is allowed to be chaste, and in the Satyricon Trimalchio, speaking as a former slave himself, says that there is nothing shameful for a slave in submitting to a master. Holland is simply stating a well-known fact.
Jenkins’ review is highly positive and says clearly “what is not debatable is the very high quality of the book as a whole”, so it’s not exactly a good piece for you to use to try to claim it’s bad history. He makes a couple of criticisms, but that’s what historians do. I make a few in my review above. Jenkins’ main issue is the focus of Holland’s examples being mainly western. This is something Jenkins is sensitive to, since he has written a whole book (and excellent one) on how most views of Christian history have this bias. Since I’ve discussed this with Holland myself, I know he would respond by noting his book’s subtitle: “The Making of the Western Mind”. Jenkins’ other criticism is over Holland’s treatment of the abolition of slavery. But here the answer is in Dominion itself – Jenkins doesn’t seem to have noted how Holland actually tackles the issue he raises. Those two issues aside – and Jenkins acknowledges they are smaller caveats on his overall assessment – he says the book is an “erudite work [that] repays multiple readings” and calls it “a seriously rewarding project, well written and consistently thoughtful, and it can be heartily recommended.” So, high praise from an excellent historian. Are you sure you wanted to highlight that one?
De Groot’s review is behind a paywall. But you’d be able to knock me over with a feather if Gerard De Groot did agree with Holland’s thesis, given he has some not inconsiderable bias against Christianity. This is the same Gerard De Groot who gave a glowing review of Catherine Nixey’s The Darkening Age, which actual specialists in the relevant period consider to be total junk.
So, just … one. De Groot’s. Surely this should be telling you something.
“Perhaps”? There are. Holland got pre-publication praise from Peter Frankopan and Dairmaid MacCulloch – not exactly a bad start. And “perhaps” if you’d looked a bit harder you’d have found the positive reviews by Samuel Moyn in the Financial Times. Or Peter Thonemann in the Wall Street Journal. Or Jonathan Sumption in The Spectator. “Perhaps” you didn’t look very hard.
Who is doing that? I treat him as what he is: an erudite, careful and thoughtful writer of popular history that has been praised by many professional historians.
Here is the full sentence from Musonius:
“ In this category [of being like a swine rejoicing in its own vileness] belongs the man who has relations with his own slave-maid, a thing which some people consider quite without blame, since every master is held to have it in his power to use his slave as he wishes.”
What Holland is trying to use this to prove is that the Romans considered that all slaves were “fair game” for the satisfying the sexual desires of their masters.
But the fact that as a matter of law slaves had no rights against their masters doesn’t mean that it was widely considered acceptable to have sexual relations with a slave. As a matter of law it is perfectly permissible for people to commit adultery. But it doesn’t follow from that that adultery is not strongly disapproved of in our society.
A future historian could take what I’ve said just above and use it to make a claim about our attitudes to adultery:
“In 21C Britain, adultery was not regarded as reprehensible behaviour: ‘it is perfectly permissible for people to commit adultery’ Frances J.”
Holland may or may not be right in what he says about the Roman attitude to the sexual use of slaves, but the quote he uses, when seen in context, doesn’t provide sufficient evidence of his claim.
Philip Jenkins review is largely positive of Dominion *as a book*. But to say that “we really need better evidence” before we can accept Holland’s thesis is to say that the writer has failed in his aim which was to prove the claim implicit in his subtitle.
De Groot’s review is also largely positive. He finishes his review with these words:
“While I don’t remotely accept Holland’s thesis, I have to commend the originality of this book, not to mention his brave ambition. Holland, I suppose, would think that very Christian of me.”
The fact that you dismiss De Groot, unread, with an ad hominem argument, tells us more about your prejudices than it does about his.
So both these reviews are positive in terms of its being a good read. So what? I never said that these reviews weren’t positive. What I said was that these two eminent historians did not support your own claim that Holland’s thesis was “well-founded and not at all controversial”. One thinks that the thesis is not well-founded and both obviously consider it be at least somewhat controversial. So that is in fact two historians who are sceptical, as I said previously.
//“Perhaps” you didn’t look very hard//
That’s what I mean. An entirely unnecessary snarky personal attack. If you don’t recognise remarks like this as being rude, then let me tell you, that’s because you have set the bar for what constitutes rudeness way too high.
Actually I spent days trying to find other historians who had reviewed the book. That I didn’t find them might have been due to my lack of resources (basically just Google) or perhaps due to my lack of internet search skills. But it was not due to any lack of keenness on my part to find whatever I could.
Like you, I am unwilling to go behind a pay wall, and all three of the reviews you link to are behind pay walls. So it is at least possible that I found these links but didn’t follow them once I hit the pay wall. It’s hard to say. There were so many sites I went to during my searches.
Anyway, as the Jonathan Sumption review offered a free trial period I decided I’d go for it and having read it, let me now ask you: Are you sure you wanted to highlight that one?
In his review Sumption says:
“…the notion that it has ‘made’ the western mind calls for a rather selective view of both Christianity and the western mind.
“ The ‘western mind’ is too large a concept for any one thing to have ‘made’ it. But on any view, a rejection of revealed authority and a belief in empirical enquiry are a fundamental part of the ‘western mind’ as it has developed since the 17th century. It is difficult to accept that Christianity has contributed anything to that. It may even have hindered it.”
So of the (now) three reviews I have read by historians, all of them, whilst expressing in varying degrees some admiration for the book as a piece of literature, reject Holland’s thesis. Surely this should be telling you something?
This is getting tedious.
I’m fully aware of the full sentence from Musonius and have referred to it twice already. It doesn’t matter how many times you repeat your erroneous claim that Holland somehow misrepresents what Musonious says, you’re still wrong. He quotes Musonius on the point that “every master is held to have it in his power to use his slave as he wishes”. He gives other evidence that this included sexual gratification. I’ve given you a couple more. He’s not saying Musonius believed this or even that Musonius is evidence of this specific use of slaves, just that Musonius is testament to the common view that masters had full power over slaves.
He is right. Whicch makes your wrongheaded nitpicking and quibbling over an irrelevant point about his use of that quote particularly dull.
No, He agrees with its thesis too.
That’s not what he says. He agrees with the thesis but argues the evidence in support of it could have been better.
If you think that small bit of wry sarcasm was a “personal attack” then you are a delicate flower indeed. Again, if I even turned my guns on you and actually attacked you, you’d know about it. Toughen up.
I used Google too and found several more than you in about five minutes. So God only knows what you were doing for “days”.
Well, it’s been a while since I’d read Sumption’s review and so I’ll admit to remembering it as being more positive about the thesis. Having now re-read it, I wonder how carefully he read the book, since several of things he claims it lacks are covered in it extensively. The fact remains that I’ve given you no less than five historians who find the thesis convincing and you’ve come up with maybe two who don’t. So Holland is doing pretty well.
I suspect, however, that you will have nothing much more to add here other than obstinate repetition. I think we’re done here.
I dunno, I’m suspicious of Holland’s claim. It reminds me of a certain breed of Christian apologist who, when asked to differentiate between the natural and the supernatural, claims everything is made by God, so there really isn’t any distinction to be made.
When we can look at, for instance, slavery, and find Christians on both sides of the issue, I’m just not sure we can say that Christianity is the lens through which ‘western humanity’ was viewing things.
It’s like the old expression about scientific theories – that which seeks to explain everything, explains nothing.
There seems to be a rather one way system being used operationally here. The grand narrative of cause and effect working only in one direction. Maybe I’m being naively ‘post modern’, but I just can’t see history working that way. It seems to me that Holland is looking up to the sky and proclaiming – ‘look – that’s where water comes from’ as the rain falls down on him…without giving any credit to the rivers that fill the seas and the sun that evaporates the water and raises it into the atmosphere.
No, it’s nothing like that.
He doesn’t say that at all.
Your critique of what you’ve decided to imagine Holland says is of little relevance to Holland’s actual book.
I just happened upon a very negative review/unhinged rant by a philosopher named Narve Strand. I only skimmed over it, but it seems to be predicated on bizzare oversimplifications of Holland’s arguments: https://academia.edu/resource/work/45521327
It seems this Strand character is also a mythicist. Why am I not surprised: https://academia.edu/resource/work/38953504
60+ pages of rant and barely any substantive quotes from or engagement with Holland’s arguments. It looks like yet another angry critic who hasn’t actually read the book.
Strand seizes on Holland’s statement that the Classical world suffered from a “complete lack of any sense that the poor or weak might have the slightest intrinsic value” (which, to be fair, is an exaggeration) and spends 40 pages spewing about how Greek ethics were totally awesome and infinitely superior to Christian teachings. As you say, it’s almost completely disconnected from Holland’s argument and even unwittingly agrees with Holland one or two points. Also, you’d never know that this guy “studied Christian theology at University” given how badly he strawmans it.
That said, he does score one technical point: on page 37, a few classical thinkers are referenced who did, indeed, fully condemn slavery prior to St. Gregory of Nyssa.
I suppose even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I find those quotes quite interesting. To save others having to sign up to academia.edu I will paste them here:
1. “God gave freedom to everyone and nature made no one a slave”
(Alkidamas, sophist 4th century BCE)
2. “No one was ever born a slave by nature” (Philemon, 368–264 B.C, comic poet (had to dig a bit to find that one))
3. “For some thinkers…, however, maintain that for one man to be another
man’s master is contrary to nature (para physin), because it is only
convention (nomô) that makes the one a slave (doulon) and the other a
freeman (eleutheron) and there is no difference between them by nature
(physei d’outhen diapherein), and therefore it is unjust (oude dikaion), for it
is based on force (biaion)” (Aristotle)
I do find these interesting however it seems to me they are not universally condeming slavery. Here is Gregory of Nyssa:
“You condemn a person to slavery whose nature is free and independent, and in doing so you lay down a law in opposition to God, overturning the natural law established by him. For you subject to the yoke of slavery one who was created precisely to be a master of the earth, and who was ordained to rule by the creator, as if you were deliberately attacking and fighting against the divine command.”
The difference, it seems to me, is that the former are all about whether there is such thing as a ‘natural slave’. There are some voices in Ancient Greece who think not. That however, does not mean slavery is wrong, its just that there are not people who are by nature meant for slavery. My understanding is that the Romans did not share this view of natural slavery, yet they were perfectly happy to condemn millions to slavery, sometimes fatally. Nyssa on the other hand seems to be suggesting that slavery is contrary to God, period. That is a different thing.
But maybe I’m wrong. I am interested to here what you guys think. Tim?
I think you’re right. The ancient world seemed to have two main views of slavery. (i) That some people were naturally meant to be slaves and so they became slaves because that was as nature intended (held, it seems, by most people). (ii) That no-one was naturally meant to be slaves, but slavery was socially and economically inevitable and so was an evil but a necessary evil (held by the Stoics and some philosophers). That slavery was an inherent evil and so should not exist at all does not seem to emerge in the West, that I can find, before Gregory of Nyssa. Even then, it took centuries and some very different economic and cultural circumstances before this realisation became widespread and was translated into action.
I’m glad you think that reasonable. I’ll admit the one bit that does give me pause is that last part of the Aristotle quote where he says ‘therefore it is unjust ‘. Assuming ‘it’ is slavery in its totality, that does suggest Aristotle was aware of some people who said slavery was unjust, period. But I would probably not include the authors of the first two quotes above in that.
Now, regarding the idea of the ‘natural slave’ itself, I had a thought I would like to run by you. Is it possible that the idea, was not, as we generally seem to take it, a way of justifying slavery against a natural pre-existing assumption that slavery was wrong, or at least unnatural, but instead rather a justification of *not* enslaving some preferred group of people (i.e. one’s own?) against a natural assumption that slavery was fine?
I seem to recall that Aristotle was against the idea of enslaving fellow Greeks, and he is also the person most associated with the idea of the natural slave. I am imagining a conversation that goes something like: “You shouldn’t have enslaved these Thebans” / “Why not, we enslave loads of people, we enslaved a big bunch of northern barbarians last year”. / “Ah, but they’re natural slaves, Greeks are not”.
If you engage in enslavement, you have to draw some kind of line between who it is and isn’t acceptable to enslave, to protect your own. And you must justify that line. You have to be able to promote pro-social norms in your own society, whilst simultaneously justifying treating outsiders as you like. You raise your children to be decent to others, and then need to be able to answer them when they ask why its okay to treat people the way slaves are treated (badly), without giving them a reason to treat non-slaves badly. Perhaps the idea of ‘natural slave’ was an attempt to do that?
Just some amateur speculation on my part. What I do think we probably can say is that given slavery was so universal and went deep into pre-history, nobody ever needed philosophers or their abstract ideas to justify it.
I’d have to check that Aristotle quote in context, because elsewhere he was just fine and dandy with slavery. That aside, there is a difference between saying slavery is unjust or even an actual evil, and saying that, therefore, it should be banned. The Stoics said the former, but never the latter. They saw it as an evil, but a necessary one and so one of the many evils in the world that have to be (by some) endured.
On your other point, the claim that some people were natural slaves and so it made sense that they were enslaved was generally made about individuals. It was a kind of circular logic – if you were a slave then this simply proved that you were one of those people who naturally meant to be a slave.
To clarify, Aristotle was referring to the views of others, not his own.
But yes I agree that there are way more layers to ‘opposing slavery’ than people often assume. For example you see people in history who oppose *one particular* slave trade, because it is causing local problems, but not slave trading in general. We tend to lump them all together when we should not.
On the other point, for some reason I was under the impression that Aristotle associated natural slavery with non-Greeks. But if its individuals, then yeah okay my idea doesn’t work.
This explanation makes sense of all of the quotes except for Aristotle, whose interlocutors are represented as saying that “for one man to be another
man’s master is contrary to nature…there is no difference between them by nature…therefore it is unjust , for it is based on force.” This sounds like a blanket condemnation of the practice to me.
Yes I agree. It is a pity that we do not (I assume) have any direct quotations from those people so we can properly understand what they mean.
True Christians were the first people to officially condemn slavery there’s a good book all this topic it’s called the book bonds of salvation it’s pretty good there’s a good article on the antiquity of slavery by your friend Spencer McDaniel she includes abolitionist did not exist in ancient world https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/10/24/abolitionism-in-ancient-greece-and-rome/